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#21
#22
#24
Thanks for that. It appears that the system might not be applicable to the V8 engine- or my copy of JTIS is lacking.
"you really should download a copy of JTIS and do lots of reading"
Fail Safe Cooling System
A unique feature of the V6 engine is the use of a fail safe cooling strategy, controlled by the EMS, in the
event of coolant loss leading to rising engine temperatures. The principle of the strategy involves
switching off one or more fuel injectors to inhibit combustion and reduce heat, thus allowing the flow of
ambient intake air to further cool the selected cylinders. By cycling the selected cylinders, ie switching
different injectors off for a period and in a sequence determined by EMS parameters, overall engine
temperature can be controlled sufficiently to allow the vehicle to be driven, at reduced power, for a
short distance. Throughout the malfunction period, instrument panel messages and warnings advise the
driver of the current status of the cooling system as described below.
Driver Indication and EMS Action
The fail safe strategy moves though different stages depending on engine temperature:
¥ Temperatures below 122û C (250û F) are within the normal range. At high temperatures below this
level the temperature gauge pointer enters the red zone.
¥ If the temperature rises to between 122û C - 127û C (250û F to 260û F) no action is taken by the EMS
which affects engine running but the following indications appear:
Temperature gauge pointer in red zone
Message Centre HIGH ENGINE TEMPERATURE
Warning light TEMP
Priority light red
Audible indicator single chime sounded
¥ If the temperature rises to 127û C (260û F) or above, the fail safe strategy operates. At 127û C (260û F),
the EMS will cut out one cylinder (the selected cylinder is varied) and as the temperature continues
to rise, this will increase to a maximum of three cylinders cut (with cylinder cycling). The following
indications are given:
Temperature gauge pointer in red zone
Message Centre ENGINE POWER REDUCED
Warning light TEMP
Priority light red
Audible indicator three chimes sounded
¥ At 166û C (300û F) or above, the fail safe strategy continues as described but the following
indications are given:
Temperature gauge pointer in red zone
Message Centre PULL OFF ROAD SAFELY alternates with TURN OFF IGNITION
Warning light TEMP flashes
Priority light red
Audible indicator five chimes sounded
¥ EMS shuts the engine down.
Fail Safe Cooling System
A unique feature of the V6 engine is the use of a fail safe cooling strategy, controlled by the EMS, in the
event of coolant loss leading to rising engine temperatures. The principle of the strategy involves
switching off one or more fuel injectors to inhibit combustion and reduce heat, thus allowing the flow of
ambient intake air to further cool the selected cylinders. By cycling the selected cylinders, ie switching
different injectors off for a period and in a sequence determined by EMS parameters, overall engine
temperature can be controlled sufficiently to allow the vehicle to be driven, at reduced power, for a
short distance. Throughout the malfunction period, instrument panel messages and warnings advise the
driver of the current status of the cooling system as described below.
Driver Indication and EMS Action
The fail safe strategy moves though different stages depending on engine temperature:
¥ Temperatures below 122û C (250û F) are within the normal range. At high temperatures below this
level the temperature gauge pointer enters the red zone.
¥ If the temperature rises to between 122û C - 127û C (250û F to 260û F) no action is taken by the EMS
which affects engine running but the following indications appear:
Temperature gauge pointer in red zone
Message Centre HIGH ENGINE TEMPERATURE
Warning light TEMP
Priority light red
Audible indicator single chime sounded
¥ If the temperature rises to 127û C (260û F) or above, the fail safe strategy operates. At 127û C (260û F),
the EMS will cut out one cylinder (the selected cylinder is varied) and as the temperature continues
to rise, this will increase to a maximum of three cylinders cut (with cylinder cycling). The following
indications are given:
Temperature gauge pointer in red zone
Message Centre ENGINE POWER REDUCED
Warning light TEMP
Priority light red
Audible indicator three chimes sounded
¥ At 166û C (300û F) or above, the fail safe strategy continues as described but the following
indications are given:
Temperature gauge pointer in red zone
Message Centre PULL OFF ROAD SAFELY alternates with TURN OFF IGNITION
Warning light TEMP flashes
Priority light red
Audible indicator five chimes sounded
¥ EMS shuts the engine down.
#25
One of the problems with the jag is the temp gauge is not a true representation of temperature, the can be massive variations in temp and the needle will stay in the middle, it was designed thus way as focus groups showed temp needle movement worried the average driver.
Another problem is the temp gauge sensor is at the top of the engine so if you lose enough coolant the is not enough to transfer the heat to the sensor and you have a cooked engine before you know it, the is a low coolant warning but again, this sometimes gets ignored or doesn't work correctly.
In short I suspect by the time cylinders start getting shut down the damage has already been done
Another problem is the temp gauge sensor is at the top of the engine so if you lose enough coolant the is not enough to transfer the heat to the sensor and you have a cooked engine before you know it, the is a low coolant warning but again, this sometimes gets ignored or doesn't work correctly.
In short I suspect by the time cylinders start getting shut down the damage has already been done
#26
pretty much the same as a LR's temp gauge "useless" they either read cold or melt down anything in between is normal.
I do another question for any body or there on picture #3 that coolant is actually pouring down from the top of the throttle body, the coolant appear to be running into the plunum from the recovery bottle vent?
I do another question for any body or there on picture #3 that coolant is actually pouring down from the top of the throttle body, the coolant appear to be running into the plunum from the recovery bottle vent?
#27
Sort of an academic exercise in the OP's case, the engine obviously has some serious damage given the pictures.
#28
it appear that is how the system work, but if your under the hood pressure testing, it hard to see those lights.
But even with the all spark plugs out it will not bump over? which makes no sense.
I am rethinking the hydro-lock? I'm starting to think it shut off on fail safe cooling mode, because when it stopped, it just stopped didn't cough or fart just stopped running.
I believe the motor was filled with water from pressure testing after as I said earlier when pressure testing water just pours out top the top of the throttle body heater from what appears to be the cooling reservoir return line.
ideas?
But even with the all spark plugs out it will not bump over? which makes no sense.
I am rethinking the hydro-lock? I'm starting to think it shut off on fail safe cooling mode, because when it stopped, it just stopped didn't cough or fart just stopped running.
I believe the motor was filled with water from pressure testing after as I said earlier when pressure testing water just pours out top the top of the throttle body heater from what appears to be the cooling reservoir return line.
ideas?
Last edited by drowssap; 06-18-2013 at 09:29 AM.
#29
With no plugs in can't be hydro lock, I'd go for flat battery or pats system locking you out, also without the throttle body on it might not turn over as the jag does all sorts of electronic checks prior to turning over.
Check with other more knowledgeable than me but it my be possible to jump the stater to get it to turn over.
Check with other more knowledgeable than me but it my be possible to jump the stater to get it to turn over.
Last edited by police666; 06-18-2013 at 09:37 AM.
#31
it has to be some system control locking it out, the battery in a few months old and I had charged set at a 200amp start mode and I still got nothing.
I am guess that once it goes into safe mode, you must have to reset something.
But I don't see anything in the manual about resetting the ems, perhaps the use the vehicle arm/antitheft system to shut it down?
I be dumb once again what does pats system stand for?
I am guess that once it goes into safe mode, you must have to reset something.
But I don't see anything in the manual about resetting the ems, perhaps the use the vehicle arm/antitheft system to shut it down?
I be dumb once again what does pats system stand for?
#32
Mikey,
"Either take it apart to find out what's gone wrong or just swap the engine for the spare you've found."
And what if I do swap the motor out, it still does not explain why water is pour from the top of the throttle body or why it wont crank.
I think I would want to find the problem before I take the time swap the motor, also as you said it probably already hurt and I don't see what damage can be done cranking it with no plugs or intake.
but thanks
"Either take it apart to find out what's gone wrong or just swap the engine for the spare you've found."
And what if I do swap the motor out, it still does not explain why water is pour from the top of the throttle body or why it wont crank.
I think I would want to find the problem before I take the time swap the motor, also as you said it probably already hurt and I don't see what damage can be done cranking it with no plugs or intake.
but thanks
#33
That's why you need to take it apart. You're going in circles with it right now.
#36
I believe you are misunderstanding me the water did not come back up the plenum. it rain straight down from the top of the intake.
I stuck my finger in the hole it was backing up from the recovery tank. in the 2nd picture it is the hose on top to the right.
I know in the pix it look like it is on the floor of the intake it isn't, it hard to pump and take a pix at the same time.
I "believe" hydro lock was never a problem. I think all that water got in there while pressure testing after it cut out on safe mode.
Don't forget I my first post I said I was running it without a belt to eliminate any of the accessory pumps as a cause of the noise.
.
So no belt, no water pump, engine acts like a heat sink and goes high enough to trip safe mode.
I stuck my finger in the hole it was backing up from the recovery tank. in the 2nd picture it is the hose on top to the right.
I know in the pix it look like it is on the floor of the intake it isn't, it hard to pump and take a pix at the same time.
I "believe" hydro lock was never a problem. I think all that water got in there while pressure testing after it cut out on safe mode.
Don't forget I my first post I said I was running it without a belt to eliminate any of the accessory pumps as a cause of the noise.
.
So no belt, no water pump, engine acts like a heat sink and goes high enough to trip safe mode.
#37
#38
#39
but it was doing the same thing before I removed the TB, but the TB did have water in it?
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that this car does not need a head gasket or more, what I am saying is I believe I drowned the engine in water pressure testing after it cut out.
The not cranking is the part that gets me, that was my original thought on the hydro-lock, but I do not believe that is that case any longer.
I wonder if it was running long enough to store and codes?
I will check the light on the dash tonight and get back,
Thanks for letting me bounce ideas around
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that this car does not need a head gasket or more, what I am saying is I believe I drowned the engine in water pressure testing after it cut out.
The not cranking is the part that gets me, that was my original thought on the hydro-lock, but I do not believe that is that case any longer.
I wonder if it was running long enough to store and codes?
I will check the light on the dash tonight and get back,
Thanks for letting me bounce ideas around
#40