Possible to upgrade front door component speakers?
#81
From the name I could hazard a guess but would rather know for sure
Now, as far as 6.5 v/s 6x8. The only real component system worth looking at with a 6x8 is the infinity 680.9cs kappa series components. You'll gain a BIT of midbass via the larger cone area, and have a bolt in fit, BUT your stuck with the somewhat shrill infinity tweeter. Once you have the door panel off, take some double sided tape, and mount the tweeter in the different locations and listen before you decide on a final placement.
The 6.5 is a bit more complicated to mount (although there are commercially available adapter plates), BUT they make much better components in 6.5". It really all depends on what you want to do and how far you want to take it.
The 6.5 is a bit more complicated to mount (although there are commercially available adapter plates), BUT they make much better components in 6.5". It really all depends on what you want to do and how far you want to take it.
I was looking at the MB quart 268 (6x8) or the 216 (6.5)
Both use the exact same tweeter, the only difference as far as I can tell is the mid driver shape/size
MB Quart Car Audio -- Premium Speakers
#82
Help me understand what/where the kick panels are?
From the name I could hazard a guess but would rather know for sure
Is that really the case?
I was looking at the MB quart 268 (6x8) or the 216 (6.5)
Both use the exact same tweeter, the only difference as far as I can tell is the mid driver shape/size
MB Quart Car Audio -- Premium Speakers
From the name I could hazard a guess but would rather know for sure
Is that really the case?
I was looking at the MB quart 268 (6x8) or the 216 (6.5)
Both use the exact same tweeter, the only difference as far as I can tell is the mid driver shape/size
MB Quart Car Audio -- Premium Speakers
As far as the kick panel, I put my tweeters where my dash meets the panel next to your foot. Here's the theory on why. The higher the frequency of a sound, the more directional it is. (This is also the reason that you can put subs in the trunk and in a well balanced / crossed over stereo, you can't tell).
Now, Ideally you want the left and right speakers equal distances from your respective ears. Since you have to sit on one side of the car, this isn't practically possible. But in the S-Type, especially if you sit with the seat at all reclined, the drivers door speakers are REALLY close to you. So, due to that you try to space out the high pitched frequencies as best you can.
I'll try to attach this as an image, BUT it may make the thread huge, if it does, I'll resize it when I get home from work today.
Take care,
George
Last edited by androulakis; 04-20-2011 at 01:26 PM.
#83
Hi George
Thanks. I was struggling to see what was going on in your pic until I realised that the wheel on your car is on the wrong side
Completely understand the theory.
In reality in most cars theres way too much diffusion and reflection going on to have any hope of a truly accurate soundstage, so we do the best we can. Conversely though, the Haas effect dictates that in such a confined space the reflected shouldnt adversely affect the perceived signal. It likely also reduces somewhat the importance of having both tweeters equidistant from your ears for most program material...when it comes to doing this I think I'll test some of this stuff out - Im used to optimizing my specially designed mastering room, not cars!
Thanks. I was struggling to see what was going on in your pic until I realised that the wheel on your car is on the wrong side
Completely understand the theory.
In reality in most cars theres way too much diffusion and reflection going on to have any hope of a truly accurate soundstage, so we do the best we can. Conversely though, the Haas effect dictates that in such a confined space the reflected shouldnt adversely affect the perceived signal. It likely also reduces somewhat the importance of having both tweeters equidistant from your ears for most program material...when it comes to doing this I think I'll test some of this stuff out - Im used to optimizing my specially designed mastering room, not cars!
#84
Hi George
Thanks. I was struggling to see what was going on in your pic until I realised that the wheel on your car is on the wrong side
Completely understand the theory.
In reality in most cars theres way too much diffusion and reflection going on to have any hope of a truly accurate soundstage, so we do the best we can. Conversely though, the Haas effect dictates that in such a confined space the reflected shouldnt adversely affect the perceived signal. It likely also reduces somewhat the importance of having both tweeters equidistant from your ears for most program material...when it comes to doing this I think I'll test some of this stuff out - Im used to optimizing my specially designed mastering room, not cars!
Thanks. I was struggling to see what was going on in your pic until I realised that the wheel on your car is on the wrong side
Completely understand the theory.
In reality in most cars theres way too much diffusion and reflection going on to have any hope of a truly accurate soundstage, so we do the best we can. Conversely though, the Haas effect dictates that in such a confined space the reflected shouldnt adversely affect the perceived signal. It likely also reduces somewhat the importance of having both tweeters equidistant from your ears for most program material...when it comes to doing this I think I'll test some of this stuff out - Im used to optimizing my specially designed mastering room, not cars!
The biggest enemy to accurate soundstages in cars is the simple transfer function created by all of the various drivers firing into a relatively sealed cabin. In theory this could be considered a 2nd order enclosure where the front wave of the drivers is firing into an isobaric chamber. Regardless, there are certain things you can do to help.
Personally I like to keep the tweeters as low and as equidistant as possible. I don't want to be able to hear and isolate any particular driver with my ear. People who mount their tweeters behind the wing mirror (to use your across the pond terminology), especially with amplified component sets tend to have this problem... I've even heard a few brag about it as a "feature".
There tends to be somewhat of a midbass hump in the transfer function around 85hz in most cars. This can be compensated by setting a highpass frequency where the slopes cross there. +6db for the midbass, - 6db for the sub. Now a LOT of aftermarket amps have 12 or sometimes 24db / octave crossovers, so you may have to bring the x-over frequency of the sub up a bit to compensate.
Personally I'd take the tweeters, double side tape them into a couple places and have a good listen before deciding on a mounting location.
Take care,
George
#85
Reflection tends to be more audible in the higher frequencies due to the shorter wavelengths. For most music, the summation of frequencies give you an instantaneous frequency of about 4500hz. (dont forget that at ANY given millisecond - there can only be one frequency currently in the signal path). But with modern digital audio sources sampling at 44khz, the effect is minimized.
But my point about the Haas effect still applies here. reflections arriving less than 30ms after the direct signal are typically inperceivable as a separate signal from the direct (even when that reflected signal is up to 10dB louder than the direct) - thus we get the impression of width and depth rather than echo.
Due to the small distances involved in a car, this is typically always the case.
The same should apply to the sound from Left and Right speakers for mono sources.
The biggest enemy to accurate soundstages in cars is the simple transfer function created by all of the various drivers firing into a relatively sealed cabin. In theory this could be considered a 2nd order enclosure where the front wave of the drivers is firing into an isobaric chamber.
Joking aside, yep, agreed. I would also imagine that the location of the sub plays a not insignificant role in determining the frequency response at a given listening position.
Given the size of most cabins, I guess this might start becoming an issue around 70 or 80 Hz.
Regardless, there are certain things you can do to help.
Personally I like to keep the tweeters as low and as equidistant as possible. I don't want to be able to hear and isolate any particular driver with my ear. People who mount their tweeters behind the wing mirror (to use your across the pond terminology), especially with amplified component sets tend to have this problem... I've even heard a few brag about it as a "feature".
Personally I like to keep the tweeters as low and as equidistant as possible. I don't want to be able to hear and isolate any particular driver with my ear. People who mount their tweeters behind the wing mirror (to use your across the pond terminology), especially with amplified component sets tend to have this problem... I've even heard a few brag about it as a "feature".
Probably much further than most people want to go so I dont know if such a product would exist in the car audio market.
There tends to be somewhat of a midbass hump in the transfer function around 85hz in most cars. This can be compensated by setting a highpass frequency where the slopes cross there. +6db for the midbass, - 6db for the sub. Now a LOT of aftermarket amps have 12 or sometimes 24db / octave crossovers, so you may have to bring the x-over frequency of the sub up a bit to compensate.
It happens that the monoblock I got uses a 24dB/Octave filter. They are a (fourth order) linkwitz-riley (Butterworth squared) filter. The Directed 200 amp uses second order L-R filters (12dB/Octave). As you say though, some experimientation and measurement at the main listening position (drivers seat) will determine the appropriate x-over points. Too many variables here to rely on theory.
Thanks again for the help George.
#86
Directionality of reflected signals is typically more audible, but higher freqiencies are typically absorbed more than lower frequencies, unless the material has acoustic properties designed to provide a different characteristic (for example in the studio we have absorbers specifically designed to be extremely efficient at absorbing frequencies below 250Hz, and at the same time reflect frequencies at arouynd 500Hz and above to avoid the room sounding dead.)
But my point about the Haas effect still applies here. reflections arriving less than 30ms after the direct signal are typically inperceivable as a separate signal from the direct (even when that reflected signal is up to 10dB louder than the direct) - thus we get the impression of width and depth rather than echo.
Due to the small distances involved in a car, this is typically always the case.
The same should apply to the sound from Left and Right speakers for mono sources.
But my point about the Haas effect still applies here. reflections arriving less than 30ms after the direct signal are typically inperceivable as a separate signal from the direct (even when that reflected signal is up to 10dB louder than the direct) - thus we get the impression of width and depth rather than echo.
Due to the small distances involved in a car, this is typically always the case.
The same should apply to the sound from Left and Right speakers for mono sources.
Until you open the windows
Joking aside, yep, agreed. I would also imagine that the location of the sub plays a not insignificant role in determining the frequency response at a given listening position.
Given the size of most cabins, I guess this might start becoming an issue around 70 or 80 Hz.
Hmm indeed. I havent even looked at whats available, but in theory it should be possible to optimize the image in a given listening position (i.e. drivers position) by measurement and application of an appropriate delay to each driver.
Probably much further than most people want to go so I dont know if such a product would exist in the car audio market.
Joking aside, yep, agreed. I would also imagine that the location of the sub plays a not insignificant role in determining the frequency response at a given listening position.
Given the size of most cabins, I guess this might start becoming an issue around 70 or 80 Hz.
Hmm indeed. I havent even looked at whats available, but in theory it should be possible to optimize the image in a given listening position (i.e. drivers position) by measurement and application of an appropriate delay to each driver.
Probably much further than most people want to go so I dont know if such a product would exist in the car audio market.
Some examples:
Amazon.com: Pioneer DEQ-7600 DIN Digital Signal Processor and 15-Band Digital Graphic Equalizer: Electronics
Amazon.com: Alpine PXA-H701 - DSP: Electronics
As far as where the transfer function peaks, generally it's around 80-100hz, you really want to hear a dramatic difference (of removing the isobaric chamber), have a listen to my 500sl with the hardtop on, and listen to the same car with the convertible top down. It's hard to believe it's the same components.
I think where that peak exists is very dependent on the size of the car, location of drivers etc, but 85Hz sounds about right for typical family sized saloons. Ive always found the most natural sounding crossovers in any application (be they speakers, or in a multiband compressor use 6dB/Octave slopes).
It happens that the monoblock I got uses a 24dB/Octave filter. They are a (fourth order) linkwitz-riley (Butterworth squared) filter. The Directed 200 amp uses second order L-R filters (12dB/Octave). As you say though, some experimientation and measurement at the main listening position (drivers seat) will determine the appropriate x-over points. Too many variables here to rely on theory.
It happens that the monoblock I got uses a 24dB/Octave filter. They are a (fourth order) linkwitz-riley (Butterworth squared) filter. The Directed 200 amp uses second order L-R filters (12dB/Octave). As you say though, some experimientation and measurement at the main listening position (drivers seat) will determine the appropriate x-over points. Too many variables here to rely on theory.
Take care,
George
#87
Buy these:
5X7 6X8 TO 5 1/4 5.25 SPEAKER ADAPTER PLATE MID KIT | eBay
That will let you bolt that 5.25" in place of the stock 5x7. Depth is NOT an issue.
Pass on the q forms, they need a lot of reinforcement not to rattle. Do they even make an S-type specific one?
Take care,
George
5X7 6X8 TO 5 1/4 5.25 SPEAKER ADAPTER PLATE MID KIT | eBay
That will let you bolt that 5.25" in place of the stock 5x7. Depth is NOT an issue.
Pass on the q forms, they need a lot of reinforcement not to rattle. Do they even make an S-type specific one?
Take care,
George
Also, any suggestions on getting off the trim piece around the inside door lever without breaking them? Also, is the stock alpine amp strong enough to push a nice set of component speakers or will I have to upgrade the amp too to see and hear results?
#88
This is vehicle specific. If you are thinking putting in components vs coaxials will make any difference at all you are mistaken. There is no point in using a component setup if the tweeter is going to be mounted right next to the woofer as in the above picture. You just might as well go with a decent set of coaxiles which in essence is just a component system stuck together. The jaguar s type uses a 6.5 alpine coaxial for the alpine models. There is no point mounting a tweeter half an inch from the woofer , just go with a standard better quality coaxial.
#89
#90
ok I understand why the alpine system owners would want to use a component set up over a coax now. I didn't realize the factory alpine amp has separate crossed over leads to the speakers. I guess you kinda have to use a component system if you wanna replace them. I don't think anyone makes a coaxial with separate tweeter and midbass inputs.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)