Im just curious why you didnt go with 1 of the kits that make this swap (electrically) a 5 wire hookup. or are you wanting to marry everything like inst pack etc rather than a custom gauge pack?

 

I'll bet she'll run like a bat out of hell after you drop that clutch. Exciting to watch how this develops.

 

I would love to have the harness set and pre-programmed ECM that comes with the smog/EPA legal GMPP E-rod engine kit, (19256487), but GM is not selling the harness and ECM separate from the complete engine kit. (To date; no separate P/Ns have been released from GM). The other harness/ECM that one can purchase from GMPP only supports one pair of O2 sensors and is not EPA compliant. Even though the dropout package I purchased was fairly expensive, it is still thousands less than I would have had to pay if I purchased the GMPP E-rod kit, clutch, TR6060 trans, and other parts that I purchased "together". I thought about purchasing a custom harness, "Painless", But why spend another $1000 when I can use the one that came with my engine. Using HPTuner S/W, I can turn off features I can't support or need in the E-38 ECM, so it isn't that big a deal. The only thing I don't have is the dedicated signal line in the harness that outputs, VSS, oil pressure, RPM..., directly to the OBDII connector to support after-market gages.

- I can still get the engine running with around 5 connections with the existing harness, if all of the security, and interactive signals are turned off in the ECM.

The electrical integration portion of the engine to the car to get full functionality is not going to be easy by any means.

 

You never know.... Brutal may have suggestions.... be hopeful

 

I have a question about the electrical integration. I have been looking to make a similar swap into either a BMW 528i (E39 series), or a Lincoln LS (which should be nearly identical to the swap you are working on). I just wonder why you have to try to "force" the two different operating systems to work together. As Brutal previously mentioned, getting the engine to run is simply a function of using a GM harness and computer and simply supplying it with a few wires to make it run. The problem becomes the rest of the car. Why can you not just leave the existing Jag computer in place and simply let it do what it wants to do, except it has no control over the engine? Feed it a few basic signals by adding the original Jag sensors to the GM block, the oil pressure sender and water temp sender are easy, that just leaves some way to hook up the crank position sender to a reluctor wheel somewhere. Then your gauges should all function, and it should be sufficient to convince the Jaguar computer network to perform its duties.....or am I missing something that they have put into place here (security, etc)? I know I am new here, but this seems to me to be the simplest way to get the end result. It might not be the cleanest or most technically correct install, but it seems like it could be made to work.

 

I have to admire your ambition with the conversion, but I wouldn't like to even contemplate what you're going to have to do about control software for your project. Auto electronics has become an electronics sub-culture where you really need in depth knowlege and experience of, in this case, both manufacturers.
I hope you win through on this one...
Leedsman.

 

Er.... that would work on a much simpler car. But now the dash display is a result of the dash computer (ICM) seeing messages on one of the computer networks (there are 4, only 2 go to the ICM). Doable, but not by hooking up a few wires. Unless the GM and Jag messages are the same (hahahaha). Oh yes... GM use J1850 VPW but the jag uses J1850 PWM. Even the voltages are different

 

The electrical is a hell of a mess! I knew the electrical was going to be a challenge when I took on the project, but that was based on the limited knowledge I had of "GM CAN" at the time. In 2008 GM started rolling out their new "Global A architecture", and at the time of my decision, I hadn't even heard about it. "Global A" follows all the latest CAN ISO standards. The J1850 standard is outdated. On the Body Control module side of things, The ECU modules may be the same as used on some of the older cars, but all the software that is used to program the modules is brand new. At the reporting and diagnostic levels, (OBDII) the electrical is the same as past years. But at the programming/reprogramming level, all the modules are now tightly controlled by GM and can only be updated through their TIS2 online system. Plus it appears that GM is using an encryption scheme to lock-in and hide module security password codes, and environmental IDs. (One can hack the messages the modules transmit to the BCM/gateway, but it is almost impossible to change the firmware to get rid of the new security features.)

Where does that leave my project?

The approach that 66fastback wrote about is probably the only cost and time effective way I can go!

But, it isn't that simple. If I go that route, I'll have to add redundant sensors to the engine/trans (Jag was auto trans, I installed a manual) that will are needed and keep all the Jaguar electrical intact. If I do this, then I run into space limitations trying to run dual harnesses and fuse boxes.

For now, concerning the body electrical side, I am moving one slow step at a time. As I learn more, I will shift and adjust my approach.
I will focus on the essential sub systems and get the car running.

I didn't need that stinking speedometer anyway!

 

I'll admit that I thought you were nuts (or had many thousands of dollars to burn) from the time you first posted about what you intend to do here. But I do admire your willingness to take a shot at this. However, I think this is going to turn into a situation where unlimited $ resources will be required....

 

I feel for your situation.

I know J1850 is outdated but the S-Type uses it as well as ISO 9141-2 and CAN (and D2B).

You can do some of what 66fastback said but do realise quite a bit of what he said just will not work without at least a custom-made protocol and sensor value convertor. I'd want to make sure that such a device is avoided.

You can probably leave most of the jag stuff connected up, except anything required to run the engine (or tranny). The jag PCM will be VERY unhappy but if it's not connected to the engine about all it can do is complain via the ICM.

When I say engine, I'm including everything engine-ish such as cooling fan etc. Presumably fuel pumps etc, too.

I'm not sure what happens about modules relating to brakes (ABS/DSC, EPB). Go GM, probably. hmm, getting the rear brake lights on at the right time may be a pesky detail.

Er... security? Door locks and especially SCLM (steering column lock module).

 

I have the electrical mapped out in great detail for the S-type and the 2010 Camaro. The deeper I dig into things, the more complex it gets. I've been down a lot of dead ends thinking I can take a certain approach, only to find some sort of hurtle. If either of the systems wasn't dependent on a "gateway" that is used to pass the messages through, things would be a lot easier.

ABS is a good example. As far as I can tell, Every ECBM out there contains the capability to work independently, but several message based requirements are programmed into the ECBM firmware. These messages have to be received through the BCM to keep the ECBM happy and functional. In the S-type there are 10 SCP messages that the ABS/TCCM module is looking for to make it happy. Only one of these 10 messages appear to be a variable state message. The rest are status based messages. On the 2010 Camaro, the Bosch ECBM uses magnetic reluctors with inductive wheel pick-up. (Less expensive, more reliable, better resolution) The Camaro EBCM has both TCS and Stability control built into it. It needs PWM based brake pedal sensor, yaw sensor and steering wheel angle sensor input that is routed through the BCM. I have the wiring mapped out, but don't know what message traffic is needed to keep it operational.
Obviously, the Jaguar ABS module is not compatible with the Camaro system.

If I try to use the Camaro ABS, then I have to change all of the Jaguar reluctors and sensors. Not an easy task!

The easiest solution is to get rid of ABS! Over time, I'll probably install heavier duty discs anyway.

On each car, the CAN messages are all routed through the BCM. As far as I can tell, without the BCM, none of the systems will operate. This is the crux of the problem.

I have numerous paths I am chasing.

1. Create a Ford to GM message converter.
2. Convert the car completely over to to GM ECUs.
3. Keep it simple and don't worry about non-essential car body functions.
4. Turn off all the built in security in the E38 ECM and Jaguar systems.
5. Become an expert in both Ford and GM CAN systems, and learn how to make the systems do what I want.

 

This is exactly the reason I suggested running a split system to begin with. I don't mean to imply that this solution is as simplistic as it sounds, it comes with a lot of "how am I going to make this work?" issues too. The two systems communicate differently.....you either have to convert one to work with the other (which sounds like a nightmare even if you were an automotive electrical engineer), or you have to find a way to make everything work using a combination of the two systems.....which to me just sounds easier. Bottom line, the engine can be wired into the car using as few as five wires to make it run. Then the problems start. I would run the cooling fans and fuel pump with the GM computer. Simple? Sort of, except other things are dependent....what about the air conditioning for instance? Then there are the deeper problems regarding abs and traction control. I don't know how deeply involved the computer is on the ABS (does it even CARE about throttle position?), but I can imagine that traction control (or stability control) would be dependent on a lot of different inputs, including throttle position/and or engine load. In other words, there is a SLIGHT chance that the ABS would still function properly, but I doubt any traction control would without some serious tinkering. As I stated earlier, I think the stock Jaguar computer would be content with a handful of engine sensor inputs so that it would still operate the instrument cluster. It would beyond a doubt require oil pressure and engine temperature, both of which would be very simple. Extra sensors can be added to the GM block. Use the stock Jaguar sensors feeding information to the Jaguar computer, and there will be no need to convert any of this information. I would think that some sort of a tach feed would be needed as well, for more than just to make the tachometer work. I would think it would be essential to convincing the Jaguar computer that the engine is actually running. I don't know to what degree that will be needed, but I can imagine it could only help in allowing a lot of the other functions controlled by the stock Jaguar network to operate. If you have not checked out the LS1TECH website, do so.....go to the "Conversions and Hybrids" section. There is a lot of wonderful information there on swapping these engines into other chassis, and a lot of innovative thinkers. They have good information on adding sensors to the block, feeding the correct information to the GM computer for running the A/C, cooling fan wiring, oil pan options, etc. Best of luck. I have a vested interest in how this turns out, although I think the swap we are considering into the Lincoln LS will be a little bit simpler. I don't need traction controls and I could even get rid of the ABS if I had too. Everything else I can work around (security is still an issue, I have not even looked into that yet).

 

Sorry for my posts looking like they are one big sentence.....I will quit using the "quick reply" box for larger posts. It obviously does not like paragraphs as it simply squashed everything together into one big paragraph. My bad.

 

The tacho is likely a network message (i.e. not a wire feed to the ICM).

Careful with the cooling fan as it's now fed by PWM. So would need disconnecting in an appropriate manner.

Yes, the jag has traction control (+EBA + DSC +etc).

The car is drive-by-wire, so the APP (accelerator pedal position - multiple sensors) and (multiple) TPS sensors need a bit of thought.

 

Thank you for the continued input and interest.

The drive shaft flanges I ordered arrived yesterday, and neither of them fit properly. They are back to the shop, along with my originals, so they can modify or fabricate new ones.

Back when I started this project if I had known how significant the recent changes to GM's control systems have been in the past 2 years, I probably would have chosen to install an LS1 or LS2 based system rather than an LS3.

One of the big changes has been the complete migration to sensors, away from switches and analog generated signals.
The other change is the level of integration and built in dependencies between all the control modules.

Example: The 2010 Camaro fuel system: All of the wires coming from the gas tank pressure sensor, fuel pressure sensor, evap solenoid, and fuel levels route back into the ECM The fuel pump supply voltage and relay control are routed through the Fuel Pump Control module. Routed from the FPCM through the BCM are 2 pairs of High Speed serial data bus wires, and a serial communication enable wire. The ECM sends messages to the BCM that in turn forward messages to the Instrument panel and the K27 FPCM. The FPCM then varies the voltage to the fuel pump depending on fuel demand of the engine.
There aren't very many messages being sent to and from the FPCM, but there is no way of knowing what conditional states the rest of the car has to be in in order for the correct messages to be sent by the ECM to turn on fuel delivery at a designated flow/pressure.
(The 2000 S-type uses almost the same electrical configuration as the Camaro, but via J1850 PWM).

Several associates, who know far more than I about Jaguars, have recommended that I try to keep the Jag electrical systems intact and operational. It will be easier to spoof J1850 than the 2010 GM electronics.
(Before I found out I was dealing with GM's "Global A" crap, others thought I should rewire the car with the Camaro's control modules. Now it's back to keeping the Jag systems intact)

I've spend endless hours reading postings on LS1tech, Corvette sites, Monster Miata site, MP3Car, Pontiac G8, The Holden site in Australia, OBDPros, Vector, Drew Tech, Intrepid systems, HP Tuners, EFILive. I've learned a lot, but the bottom line is that the electrical control systems have become so complex the average person can't learn the electrical and S/W to the degree it takes to hack the complete Body controls system. Late model car control systems are built upon layers of technology that each individual contributor only works on a small part. The few people who can do it all are inside the system and it is not in their best interest to help enthusiast outside the system. The companies working just outside the system are doing a great job of hacking where they can make money (ECM tuning), but there is little to no money to be made hacking the ECUs and (BCM)/Gateway in any car out there. If more people had the interest and desire to do late model engine swaps, then life would be easier for people like me.

I can state, that it doesn't matter what part of the car I work on, each control system has it own specific problem to be solved. HVAC, Fuel system engine cooling, Cooling fans, Cruise control, ECBM, Instrument cluster/gages...

If I think too much about it will drive me crazy. I understand the comments about deep pockets. To get the car to work the way I want it, I may have to spend big bucks to get others to help get some of the systems operational.

 

Joe,

I know we've discussed a lot of things, but that's why I was pushing for the LS1/LS2 swap initially when you were searching for a motor.

What this makes me wonder, is as these and all cars age, and more people look to an LSx swap as the solution to bringing a car with an expensive but inferior performing engine back to life, will they crack the Global A/ LS3 platform, or are we looking at a situation where Ls1/2 motors and their control systems will become cherished and therefore jump in value.

I mean you can get complete running truck sourced LS drivetrains with the modules and harness for a grand these days.


George

 

Or people may put a GM engine (with PCM) into a GM body and a jag engine (with PCM) into a jag body....

 

Where would the fun in that be? C'mon people have been stuffing Chevy v8's into Jags for years

 

I'm all for fun! But fighting incompatible computer buses (networks) is not most engine-swappers idea of fun.

 

Hey, it's a brave new world out there.

I watched this type of swap unfold on an BMW board years ago. From the first hrrm I wonder if... to the foam mockup block going in and people rejoycing that the LSx fit in the e36, down to the wiring and computer issues.

Today those swaps are well sorted, and there are kits available for most of the hard work. All because someone initially dared to try. Sure it's not fun... But 10 years from now if this becomes the standard (assuming GM keeps building the LSx platform - heck it took them 60 years to phase out the SBC") It will be once again because people slowly figured it out along the way...

I was talking to Joe (the op and person doing the swap) about my first engine swap when I was 18. My 1980 Camaro Z-28 had a 350 so choked with emissions crap that it was good for all of about 195hp... So a rusting at the seams 73 Buick Centurion saved the day donating it's 455 big block to the cause. The ONLY wiring was to the starter and the tach pickup lol. Yet I thought I had just reinvented the wheel...

George