Reckon there's gonna be (smallish) money in making convertor modules to change the CAN/etc messages from/to GM to/from Ford?

 

Probably not... Cause the only RWD Cars that can accept the swap are the LS, S-Type and T-bird.
I'm wondering what the data bus is in the Mustangs. - Would a 4.6 swap be a much easier proposition (Into the S-type) ? Problem being the S-type's 4.0 makes more power before you start bolting on parts to the mustang. Joe's LS3 is making 400hp Bone Stock. And it's easy to squeeze out more power. Hell with forced induction there are already 1000+ Rwhp Camaros running around, on the street in daily driver trim.

There's a ton of Fox body mustangs running ls motors - par for the course if you want to go really fast in a mustang, but I don't know how the new body mustangs are going to fare compared to the fox body ones once they get cheap enough to become toys, and get enough wear on the drivetrain where it's time for a motor swap.

Swapping GM power plants into places they don't belong is and has always been a hobby / enthusiast thing. I've dreamed about doing it for a while but I just don't have the time...

Personally my car of choice would either be a Porsche 944 or a BMW Z3/4 though.

George

 

A good example of what I'm talking about as far as a developed market...

http://www.norotors.com/index.php/to...vhprugr6hlu3a1

 

Thanks for that!

I've not seen an online (downloadable?) workshop manual for the Mustang (er, haven't looked LOL) but would take a look if there is one

944? hmm, prefer the 928

 

The same company makes kits for both the 928 and 944.

http://www.renegadehybrids.com/#

The fatal flaw of the 928 was the aluminum chassis... Loses it's structural rigidity over time.

My reasoning for a 944.

First, the kit and the swap have been sorted and well documented.

Second they are great handling cars, but the stock 2.5l volkswagen engine should have never been put in there. The 928 has a respectable drivetrain, 330hp and a v8. Unless you go with a highly modified LSx you're basically replacing like with like.

Third, they are available relatively cheaply. Especially if you can find a cosmetically clean one with high miles or motor issues (that motor like all vw's loves to snap timing belts).

There's a guy with a 944 around here for sale that has a 400ci SBC swapped into it. It's actually for sale cause he lost his license for street racing. - Go figure right.
I was actually in the car a couple times because he had brought it up to my brother's shop. At 40mph, in 5th gear, just cruising, he stomped on it, without downshifting. The car broke the rear tires loose like he dumped the clutch from a stop. It was scary and amazing at the same time.

George

 

I didn't know about the chassis thing. Will that affect modern aluminum cars (Audi etc)?

Love that story. Ouch.

 

Over the past couple of days, I've been trying to think of ways around some of the controls and interface problems. I started taking a deeper look at a way around GM's new "global A" crap. I've been looking at the electrical controls used on the 2008/9 Pontiac G8s. I posted on the G8 forum is anyone knows anything about the G8 ECUs and after a couple of days... nothing. I went onto GMPD and Rock Auto and compared part numbers for most of the sensors, and parts attached to respective LS3 engines. The majority of the parts have different P/Ns. It looks like I could use G8 electrical modules, but might have to swap out a lot of sensors. (Even more money/time.)

Then base on some of your guy's input, it occurred to me today that perhaps there "might be a way" to convert the LS3 to run via Ford/Jag electrical. I looked into this months ago and gave up because the Jag engine has a different firing order, and overhead cams. Ford's modular V8s have the same firing order, so perhaps I could find a Ford EEC (EEC-V or EEC-VI) that could be substituted for the Jag's PCM150 EEC. (Different pin-outs/connectors and I was told once a different S/W set) But maybe wiring could be matched up between the Jag and the Ford EEC. Just maybe, the SCP messages could be the same between the EEC and the BCM. (Long shot, - big items like the LS3 ETC would have to be converted to a matching Ford ETC and gas pedal.)

Just a thought, but perhaps you Ford guys could give input if this might be possible.

There has to be an easy way to skin this cat!

 

I don't believe there is a "BCM", but there are lots of modules. In that era of S-Type, SCP mainly but some use ISO for OBD.

I think you're right that the PTEC / PCM150 with its existing software is no good for the LS3, not least because it wants a 5R55N autobox.

I have no idea whether a V8 EEC (V or other) could cope with an LS3, sorry. I don't know enough about the precise details of what sets timing, firing order and a ton of other stuff. It sounds unlikely to cope but that's a feeling not knowledge. I imagine when the EEC is trying to do things that the LS3's behaviour will be subtly (or unsubtly) unlike what the EEC expects and codes / limp mode will result.

Example: the misfire monitor is almost bound not to see anything it recognises, but I don't know what it would do. If it just stays unset and maybe the PCM runs OL (open loop), maybe that doesn't matter. Well, unless you have to pass I/M etc!

In some respects what you may need is a crude PCM not a clever one, though you likely lose quite a bit of the LS3's abilities in that case.

I know nothing about the modular V8s (V6 is often considered quite big over here!), although I'm used to EEC-IV and -V (but not the -VI, really).

The jag sensors etc could well be wrong for the modular V8-type EEC (though most may be OK).

Maybe grab a crashed LS3-based car and use its harnesses, sensors etc? And I guess disconnect all the jag's SCP etc parts.

 

He does have everything from a crashed LS3. The problem is that with GM's new Global A architecture, using the GM BCM is all all or nothing proposition. You either use EVERY GM module, or none of them work !

Personally I think we may be onto something in using the Modular Ford V8's controls to possibly just maybe run the LS3.

George

 

Ok, here I go shooting off at the fingers again without knowing something for absolute certain, but I believe that is why we are here bouncing ideas. I think you might be on the right track here. I know that the LSx engines can be ran in Mustangs using the old EECIV's and V's. I've seen several cars done that way. I don't know about the EECVI, but I bet it has been done as well.

As far as firing order goes, I don't see the issue. IF YOU NEEDED TO, the injectors and coil packs can be rewired to match any order needed.....but consider that the way these engine's cylinders are numbered is different.....and that makes them the same (I'm not crazy, really). When you compare the way the Ford 5.0L and 4.6L are numbered to the GM LSx engines, you find out that the cylinders are in fact firing in the same order. It's kind of neat, actually. The Ford computer will fire the coils and injectors in a pattern that matches the LSx cam timing. That makes running a GM LSx engine with a Ford computer or visa-versa that much easier.

I hope this makes your day a little bit.

 

I can well believe that. It's also true of the S-Types: the original engines number the cylinders in a particular way and the redesign (2002/3) number differently (changed to follow the ISO standard) - but they're firing in the same order (I guess they have to!!). Easy to check if anyone cares here: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/a...achmentid=2914

 

I was thinking "good"
Oh. That's BAD.
The jags are a bit like that, but only a a bit.

I wonder if the LS3 could be got running as proof of concept with the simplest EEC (probably a IV)? So, connect the fewest sensors etc and check it runs. If it works, head on to a V or VI.

I hope no engine damage can occur, though.

Er, for that matter there's probably a simpler GM PCM than the current one (OK, I kinda know they exist - but I know next to nothing about them).

 

I like it! Lets keep digging into possible solutions.

I haven't had much time to dig further into the Ford/Jaguar control modules.
The GM and Ford/Jag systems are starting to blend together in my brain. I think the Jaguar PCM has a gateway built into it that is similar to GM's BCM gateway features. In 2000, the Jaguar and Ford electrical is not as integrated as in the new GM electronics. I've started another Excel spreadsheet to map out all that will be needed. This is going to take up some space, but here are all the PCM components associated with the 2000 S-type. I'll map these to the LS3 and a couple of EECV based Ford V8s


2000 S-Type Jaguar Powertrain Control Module Engine Management components

· 1/2 (HO2) Heated O2 Sensor
· 2/2 (HO2) Heated O2 Sensor
· 1/1 (HO2) Heated O2 Sensor
· 2/1 (HO2) Heated O2 Sensor
· (EOT) Engine Oil Temperature Sensor
· (ECT) Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor
· (EFT) Engine Fuel Temperature Sensor
· (IP) Injection Pressure Sensor
· #1 (CMP) Camshaft Position Sensor RH Bank
· #2 (CMP Camshaft Position Sensor LH Bank
· (AAI) Air Assist Injection Valve
· #1 (VVT) Variable Timing Valve RH Bank
· #2 (VVT) Variable Timing Valve LH Bank
· #1 (KS) Knock Sensor
· #2 (KS) Knock Sensor
· (CKP) Crankshaft Position Sensor
· Evap Canister Purge Valve Assembly
· (MAF) Mass Air Flow Sensor
· (IAT) Intake Air Temperature Sensor
· Brake Switch
· (PSP) Power Steering Pressure Switch
· Evap Cannister Purge Valve
· (APP) Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor
· (TP) Throttle Position Sensor
· (Throttle Actuator Control Module
· Fuel Injectors – Qty = 8
· Ignition Coils Bank 1: 1/1, 2/1, 3/1, 4/1
· Ignition Coils Bank 2: ½, 2/2, 3/2, 4/2
· A/C compressor clutch Relay
· A/C pressure sensor
· Brake Cancel Switch
· Cooling Fan Module

· Transmission Auto:
o Solenoid valves
o Pressure regulators
o Fluid Temp Sensor
o Pressure Switch
o Turbine Speed Sensor
o Intermediate speed sensor
o Output Speed Sensor
o Transmission range selector
o J-Gate shift assembly with input from Brake switch

· Transmission Manual:
o Reverse Switch
o Output Speed Sensor
o Clutch pedal Switch
o Brake switch

 

Joe...

What differs between an LS1/LS2 and corresponding PCM relative to a LS3 (With global A) electrically. Forget the messages and all that. My question is specific in terms of what extra sensors / modules does the motor (And JUST the motor) have relative to it's older brothers?

I'm thinking the Best recourse here might be simply to swap out sensors etc as needed and run an LS1 PCM. Then we can worry about the Jag stuff later.

George

 

Joe,

You might want to give this company a call...

http://www.hotrodlane.cc/

They have a 98-04 LSx Stand alone engine management system.

Their internet site sucks, but Super Chevy has nothing but kudos about them.

George

 

http://www.fuelairspark.com/Pages/20...vyGen3Efi.aspx

Another resource worth taking a look at...

George

 

Off the top of my head.

- LS3 has a different firing order than earlier LSx engines.
- 58X crankshaft reluctor versus 24X
- Different Camshaft sensor signal - 4X.
- LS3 has a no return loop fuel rail for injectors, (variable pressure/flow fuel pump) (Same as S-type)
- Different O2 sensors, (I assume a different output calibration)
- 90mm ETC versus 76mm ETC (Different PWM voltage curves, this can be changed in ECM)
- From what I've been researching, things like knock sensors, pressure sensors, temp. sensors all have different P/S on the LS3 versus and LS2.

LS1tech documents a lot of the problems encountered when enthusiasts who put LS3s in gen 4 Camaros, but this has be done. - moving to an older GM ECM and engine configuration may not let me pass EPA/Smog requirements. I have the same concern converting the LS3 to run like a Ford. I guess if the state's diagnostic machine gets all the right readings, based on the M.Y. of the car and VIN number, the technician may not notice the different engine. (But they will find out something is way different when they find a 6-speed and hear the rumble of the exhaust)

I still believe we can find a simpler solution that will do it all.

I have to chart all the variables and differences for all the possible configurations and then see which path will take the least time, cost the least, and return the most functionality in the car.

 

Well at least in NJ, all we have is an OBDII test. They just plug into the port, check for no MIL or codes, and readiness, and off you go for another 2 years. Getting that to comply is 5 mins in EFI Live or HP Tuners (including permanent forced readiness).

As far as the swap rule in NJ, you have to comply with whatever EPA standard is stricter either the Donor cars or the Car the motor came from.

George

 

I am comparing the 2008/2009 Pontiac G8 LS3 engine peripherals to the 2010 Camaro LS3. The G8 doesn't have "Global A" but uses an E38 ECM. Very few P/Ns are matching up. My last post listed the major differences between earlier LSx engines and the LS3. A 2008/9 Cadillac CTS might be another source for non-Global A electrical control.

Joe

 

Er... getting it to comply will at some point be VERY hard: they're going to check that the correct calibration is present. That is to prevent tampering with the software (such as to pretend the car's got no codes and that the readiness monitors are all OK).