R and new 335i
#21
03-12-2010, 02:08 PM
Member
Sorry tbird6, this is NOT entirely correct:
The S-Type R 4.2L V-8 had continously variable valve timing since its introduction:
"Under the hood is a thoroughly revamped edition of Jaguar's AJ V-8, stroked to 4.2 liters and enhanced with a new intake manifold, revised heads, and continuously variable (instead of two-position) intake-valve timing."
Source:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...pe_r-road_test
Also, I used to work with Ford and knew folks at their Premier Auto Group. The rating went up to 400 after unrelenting complaints by marketing and customers for not hitting that bogie upon introduction. "Why 390, why not 400?!?!" They accomplished this at the very end of 2003 for the 2004+ models by reprogramming the ECU, also allowing 100 more RPM.
I have also heard from other S-Type R owner that there may have been a change to a slightly larger airbox, but I'm still trying to confirm this with data, not speculation.
The last models did have 420HP.
"Under the hood is a thoroughly revamped edition of Jaguar's AJ V-8, stroked to 4.2 liters and enhanced with a new intake manifold, revised heads, and continuously variable (instead of two-position) intake-valve timing."
Source:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...pe_r-road_test
Also, I used to work with Ford and knew folks at their Premier Auto Group. The rating went up to 400 after unrelenting complaints by marketing and customers for not hitting that bogie upon introduction. "Why 390, why not 400?!?!" They accomplished this at the very end of 2003 for the 2004+ models by reprogramming the ECU, also allowing 100 more RPM.
I have also heard from other S-Type R owner that there may have been a change to a slightly larger airbox, but I'm still trying to confirm this with data, not speculation.
The last models did have 420HP.
#22
03-12-2010, 02:44 PM
Veteran Member
tbird6 will hopefully post details but he already posted about extra wires which for sure do something and I recall a photo I saved
Supercharged Engine with VVT.jpg
Pah! Can't find it on here using Search
Ah: (had to google):
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...t=32653&page=2
(and then edit the pesky URL grrr)
Supercharged Engine with VVT.jpg
Pah! Can't find it on here using Search
Ah: (had to google):
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...t=32653&page=2
(and then edit the pesky URL grrr)
Last edited by JagV8; 03-12-2010 at 02:50 PM.
#23
03-12-2010, 03:05 PM
Sorry. Your wrong and so is Car and driver. Here are the pictures to prove it. First you have to actually know what you’re looking at. Then you can easily tell if the engine has VVT or not. Notice the round indentation at the front of the valve/cam covers. This is where the electrical connection for the VVT it located. The first picture below is from a 2003 STR with no VVT. The second picture is from a 2006 STR that HAS VVT. Note also the 2003 has strut tower caps which I have added to my 2005 STR.
Now where all the confusion comes in is the regular non-super charged 4.2L DID have VVT from the begining. Even the factory Jaguar sales literature has to be read very carefully to pull out this fact. I even purchased my 2005 STR thinking it had VVT. Then I compared it to my wife’s 2003 Lincoln LS and found out it did not have it!! So I started looking and finally figured it out.
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.
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Now where all the confusion comes in is the regular non-super charged 4.2L DID have VVT from the begining. Even the factory Jaguar sales literature has to be read very carefully to pull out this fact. I even purchased my 2005 STR thinking it had VVT. Then I compared it to my wife’s 2003 Lincoln LS and found out it did not have it!! So I started looking and finally figured it out.
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Last edited by tbird6; 03-12-2010 at 03:08 PM. Reason: Fix a miss spelled word
#24
03-12-2010, 11:16 PM
Senior Member
My son has managed to embarass a couple of 335is with a stock appearing 68 Oldsmobile Cutlass convertible. Gone is the old 350 - 2 barrel engine. There's a full race Olds 425 Big Block under the hood now, and, the car's drivetrain, suspension, and brakes are all updated as well.
Regards:
Oldengineer
Regards:
Oldengineer
#25
03-13-2010, 02:30 PM
Member
OK, so then:
1) The 2004 model was rated at 400HP thanks an upgrade in the engine management system.
2) VVT was added to the S-Type R in 2006. BTW, very interesting response tbird6. My other car is a T-Bird.
Sidenote: Funny, I was told a few years ago that the 2002 S-Type R had VVT without a sensor, and the 2006 introduced a sensor to better manage the variable valve timing, especially during sudden changes in throttle input. I guess that information was incorrect. Thank you.
3) And finally:
I wouldn't care if a 335i did 0-60 in 4 seconds, a 1/4-mile in 12.4, and pulled .99G on a skid pad. I'd rather push an S-Type R uphill with a broken ankle than be seen in run-of-the-mill, cookie-cutter, dime-a-dozen, overrated, plasticky-interior equipped, Teutonically unimaginative, head-gasket-blowing, overpriced "Official Shuttle of L.A. entry-level, Blue-Tooth clad, cheap cologne wearing, join-the-lemmings, wanna-be, un-original, fake-orange-tanned, nouveau-riche, have-to-fit-in-with-the in-crowd cuz my BFF Jenny bought one uber-yuppies" Enterprise rental car (it's true!) 3-series sedan. Especially in black.
Oh, did I say that out-loud? My bad.
The M3, on the other hand, has my complete and total respect. (Despite the techno-overload of driver optional settings.)
Cheers!
1) The 2004 model was rated at 400HP thanks an upgrade in the engine management system.
2) VVT was added to the S-Type R in 2006. BTW, very interesting response tbird6. My other car is a T-Bird.
Sidenote: Funny, I was told a few years ago that the 2002 S-Type R had VVT without a sensor, and the 2006 introduced a sensor to better manage the variable valve timing, especially during sudden changes in throttle input. I guess that information was incorrect. Thank you.
3) And finally:
I wouldn't care if a 335i did 0-60 in 4 seconds, a 1/4-mile in 12.4, and pulled .99G on a skid pad. I'd rather push an S-Type R uphill with a broken ankle than be seen in run-of-the-mill, cookie-cutter, dime-a-dozen, overrated, plasticky-interior equipped, Teutonically unimaginative, head-gasket-blowing, overpriced "Official Shuttle of L.A. entry-level, Blue-Tooth clad, cheap cologne wearing, join-the-lemmings, wanna-be, un-original, fake-orange-tanned, nouveau-riche, have-to-fit-in-with-the in-crowd cuz my BFF Jenny bought one uber-yuppies" Enterprise rental car (it's true!) 3-series sedan. Especially in black.
Oh, did I say that out-loud? My bad.
The M3, on the other hand, has my complete and total respect. (Despite the techno-overload of driver optional settings.)
Cheers!
Last edited by Classic_Engr; 03-13-2010 at 03:36 PM.
#26
03-13-2010, 02:43 PM
Member
My son has managed to embarass a couple of 335is with a stock appearing 68 Oldsmobile Cutlass convertible. Gone is the old 350 - 2 barrel engine. There's a full race Olds 425 Big Block under the hood now, and, the car's drivetrain, suspension, and brakes are all updated as well.
Regards:
Oldengineer
Regards:
Oldengineer
#27
03-13-2010, 03:28 PM
Veteran Member
#29
03-13-2010, 05:30 PM
Senior Member
Hey Tbird,
With the VVT on the '06; in your picture, is the connection for the VVT the wires that are connected at the indentation towards the front of the motor on the valve cover about 3-4 inches from a coolant line?
My '05 motor looks just like the '06 in your picture. Do you have any motor pics of your '05 for comparison?
With the VVT on the '06; in your picture, is the connection for the VVT the wires that are connected at the indentation towards the front of the motor on the valve cover about 3-4 inches from a coolant line?
My '05 motor looks just like the '06 in your picture. Do you have any motor pics of your '05 for comparison?
#30
03-13-2010, 05:52 PM
Senior Member
I wouldn't care if a 335i did 0-60 in 4 seconds, a 1/4-mile in 12.4, and pulled .99G on a skid pad. I'd rather push an S-Type R uphill with a broken ankle than be seen in run-of-the-mill, cookie-cutter, dime-a-dozen, overrated, plasticky-interior equipped, Teutonically unimaginative, head-gasket-blowing, overpriced "Official Shuttle of L.A. entry-level, Blue-Tooth clad, cheap cologne wearing, join-the-lemmings, wanna-be, un-original, fake-orange-tanned, nouveau-riche, have-to-fit-in-with-the in-crowd cuz my BFF Jenny bought one uber-yuppies" Enterprise rental car (it's true!) 3-series sedan. Especially in black.
Oh, did I say that out-loud? My bad.
The M3, on the other hand, has my complete and total respect. (Despite the techno-overload of driver optional settings.)
Cheers!
I personally respect the 3 series line up, espcieally the 335i, lots of fun on a twisty mountain road, great performing engine, ez to modify.... but...
I picked my jag for the very same reason bruno mentioned, its not as common as an everyday 3 series with or with out twin turbos. I can almost be certain that no matter where I go, there will never be a another Jag STR except mine (not counting Jag meets here in socal)
First car = 1977 pontiac trans am (400 pontiac NOT CHEVY, engine built by me and my dad, 430hp 550lbs of torque, on a 4 speed with a peg lef rear end 2.83 gears!)
in the process of completing a 1963 buick Riviera (401 nail head) when ever i get a chance (school, work, girlfriend, take up a lot of time as most of you know)
#31
03-13-2010, 06:03 PM
Member
Ok, I admit, I have driven one, and the real truth is that it is a very good car with a truly wonderful engine, darn it. I wouldn't kick one out of my garage, but I don't know why it pains me to admit that. It seems that only 10% of the owners are real car guy Bimmerheads who truly appreciate that great engine. The rest just see the badge. And there are SO many of them. Boring.
A Buick nailhead? Awesome.
A Buick nailhead? Awesome.
#32
03-13-2010, 06:23 PM
OK, so then:
1) The 2004 model was rated at 400HP thanks an upgrade in the engine management system.
2) VVT was added to the S-Type R in 2006. BTW, very interesting response tbird6. My other car is a T-Bird.
Sidenote: Funny, I was told a few years ago that the 2002 S-Type R had VVT without a sensor, and the 2006 introduced a sensor to better manage the variable valve timing, especially during sudden changes in throttle input. I guess that information was incorrect. Thank you.
3) And finally:
I wouldn't care if a 335i did 0-60 in 4 seconds, a 1/4-mile in 12.4, and pulled .99G on a skid pad. I'd rather push an S-Type R uphill with a broken ankle than be seen in run-of-the-mill, cookie-cutter, dime-a-dozen, overrated, plasticky-interior equipped, Teutonically unimaginative, head-gasket-blowing, overpriced "Official Shuttle of L.A. entry-level, Blue-Tooth clad, cheap cologne wearing, join-the-lemmings, wanna-be, un-original, fake-orange-tanned, nouveau-riche, have-to-fit-in-with-the in-crowd cuz my BFF Jenny bought one uber-yuppies" Enterprise rental car (it's true!) 3-series sedan. Especially in black.
Oh, did I say that out-loud? My bad.
The M3, on the other hand, has my complete and total respect. (Despite the techno-overload of driver optional settings.)
Cheers!
1) The 2004 model was rated at 400HP thanks an upgrade in the engine management system.
2) VVT was added to the S-Type R in 2006. BTW, very interesting response tbird6. My other car is a T-Bird.
Sidenote: Funny, I was told a few years ago that the 2002 S-Type R had VVT without a sensor, and the 2006 introduced a sensor to better manage the variable valve timing, especially during sudden changes in throttle input. I guess that information was incorrect. Thank you.
3) And finally:
I wouldn't care if a 335i did 0-60 in 4 seconds, a 1/4-mile in 12.4, and pulled .99G on a skid pad. I'd rather push an S-Type R uphill with a broken ankle than be seen in run-of-the-mill, cookie-cutter, dime-a-dozen, overrated, plasticky-interior equipped, Teutonically unimaginative, head-gasket-blowing, overpriced "Official Shuttle of L.A. entry-level, Blue-Tooth clad, cheap cologne wearing, join-the-lemmings, wanna-be, un-original, fake-orange-tanned, nouveau-riche, have-to-fit-in-with-the in-crowd cuz my BFF Jenny bought one uber-yuppies" Enterprise rental car (it's true!) 3-series sedan. Especially in black.
Oh, did I say that out-loud? My bad.
The M3, on the other hand, has my complete and total respect. (Despite the techno-overload of driver optional settings.)
Cheers!
#33
03-14-2010, 09:04 AM
Veteran Member
Iluvmy05STR - yeah, you got the right indentations and wires. On my 2004 STR the indentations are just shapes in the metal cover, nothing else. You can see the indent in the first of tbird6's 2 photos, just top left of the PAS fluid reservoir.
Last edited by JagV8; 03-14-2010 at 11:39 AM. Reason: changed to clarify I meant tbird6's photos
#34
03-14-2010, 11:14 AM
Veteran Member
OK, so then:
1) The 2004 model was rated at 400HP thanks an upgrade in the engine management system.
2) VVT was added to the S-Type R in 2006. BTW, very interesting response tbird6. My other car is a T-Bird.
Sidenote: Funny, I was told a few years ago that the 2002 S-Type R had VVT without a sensor, and the 2006 introduced a sensor to better manage the variable valve timing, especially during sudden changes in throttle input. I guess that information was incorrect. Thank you.
3) And finally:
I wouldn't care if a 335i did 0-60 in 4 seconds, a 1/4-mile in 12.4, and pulled .99G on a skid pad. I'd rather push an S-Type R uphill with a broken ankle than be seen in run-of-the-mill, cookie-cutter, dime-a-dozen, overrated, plasticky-interior equipped, Teutonically unimaginative, head-gasket-blowing, overpriced "Official Shuttle of L.A. entry-level, Blue-Tooth clad, cheap cologne wearing, join-the-lemmings, wanna-be, un-original, fake-orange-tanned, nouveau-riche, have-to-fit-in-with-the in-crowd cuz my BFF Jenny bought one uber-yuppies" Enterprise rental car (it's true!) 3-series sedan. Especially in black.
Oh, did I say that out-loud? My bad.
The M3, on the other hand, has my complete and total respect. (Despite the techno-overload of driver optional settings.)
Cheers!
1) The 2004 model was rated at 400HP thanks an upgrade in the engine management system.
2) VVT was added to the S-Type R in 2006. BTW, very interesting response tbird6. My other car is a T-Bird.
Sidenote: Funny, I was told a few years ago that the 2002 S-Type R had VVT without a sensor, and the 2006 introduced a sensor to better manage the variable valve timing, especially during sudden changes in throttle input. I guess that information was incorrect. Thank you.
3) And finally:
I wouldn't care if a 335i did 0-60 in 4 seconds, a 1/4-mile in 12.4, and pulled .99G on a skid pad. I'd rather push an S-Type R uphill with a broken ankle than be seen in run-of-the-mill, cookie-cutter, dime-a-dozen, overrated, plasticky-interior equipped, Teutonically unimaginative, head-gasket-blowing, overpriced "Official Shuttle of L.A. entry-level, Blue-Tooth clad, cheap cologne wearing, join-the-lemmings, wanna-be, un-original, fake-orange-tanned, nouveau-riche, have-to-fit-in-with-the in-crowd cuz my BFF Jenny bought one uber-yuppies" Enterprise rental car (it's true!) 3-series sedan. Especially in black.
Oh, did I say that out-loud? My bad.
The M3, on the other hand, has my complete and total respect. (Despite the techno-overload of driver optional settings.)
Cheers!
#35
06-18-2012, 02:55 PM
Member
Basic VVT on 4.2L since 2002??? Just asking...
OK, so then:
1) The 2004 model was rated at 400HP thanks an upgrade in the engine management system.
2) VVT was added to the S-Type R in 2006. BTW, very interesting response tbird6. My other car is a T-Bird.
Sidenote: Funny, I was told a few years ago that the 2002 S-Type R had VVT without a sensor, and the 2006 introduced a sensor to better manage the variable valve timing, especially during sudden changes in throttle input. I guess that information was incorrect. Thank you.
1) The 2004 model was rated at 400HP thanks an upgrade in the engine management system.
2) VVT was added to the S-Type R in 2006. BTW, very interesting response tbird6. My other car is a T-Bird.
Sidenote: Funny, I was told a few years ago that the 2002 S-Type R had VVT without a sensor, and the 2006 introduced a sensor to better manage the variable valve timing, especially during sudden changes in throttle input. I guess that information was incorrect. Thank you.
"The engine uses a two-state Variable Valve Timing system to switch the intake cam timing by 30-deg. Newer engines use a more sophisticated system which can vary intake timing incrementally up to 48-deg."
http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/kitcar/kb.php?aid=74
http://www.jagweb.com/aj6eng/v8_performance.php
Can someone please clarify?
Last edited by Classic_Engr; 06-18-2012 at 03:00 PM.
#36
06-18-2012, 03:26 PM
Veteran Member
#37
06-18-2012, 08:25 PM
Veteran Member
Yes it is a bit confusing!!
I have a 2003 Lincoln LS and a 2005 STR and yes I also have a T-bird!! I am Tbird6 as well as clubairth1.
It's a 1959 model and it was my first car and I have owned for almost 40 years!!
Anyway back to the VVT. First Jaguar was always ahead of the Lincoln in this regard. The early S Type (1999-2002) had a crude two position VVT system. In 2003 that was upgraded to the full 48 degree continuously adjustable VVT as was mentioned above.
The Lincoln had no VVT in the first generation 2000-2002. But all the cars have the same cam covers and either have the dimple if no VVT or the sensor hooked to wires if you do have VVT. The LS finally got VVT with the 2003 upgrade but it was the older two position system instead what the Jag got in 2003. Also the cam covers are plastic and not steel.
Finally the SC 4.2L in the STR got the nice continuous variable VVT in 2006. We don't really have much information on what if any power gains there were? The rating went up to 420HP but at that time there was a bit of a fight about how HP was measured here in the US. The other rumor was the VVT addition to the SC motor was more for emissions and NOT power.
What happened was most POS 4-6 cylinders had to be down-rated and almost all the V-8's gained a bit. This was across all car brands as it was government rating issue really and nothing more.
Of course we still don't have the full on system like BMW. They have a double-vanos system which continuously varies intake and exhaust timing. You can also go one step higher in that some system alter valve timing as well as valve lift. BMW has now added this independently from the timing function. They call it Valvetronic. Only changes lift by 10mm or so and it does include variable cam duration too. This allowed BMW to drop the normal throttle plate like we have in our TB (throttle Bodies).
If we stay with old fashion poppet valve engines they might finally get to the F1 racing level. These cars can have air operated valves (No camshafts) and each valve can be independently computer controlled.
.
.
.
I have a 2003 Lincoln LS and a 2005 STR and yes I also have a T-bird!! I am Tbird6 as well as clubairth1.
It's a 1959 model and it was my first car and I have owned for almost 40 years!!
Anyway back to the VVT. First Jaguar was always ahead of the Lincoln in this regard. The early S Type (1999-2002) had a crude two position VVT system. In 2003 that was upgraded to the full 48 degree continuously adjustable VVT as was mentioned above.
The Lincoln had no VVT in the first generation 2000-2002. But all the cars have the same cam covers and either have the dimple if no VVT or the sensor hooked to wires if you do have VVT. The LS finally got VVT with the 2003 upgrade but it was the older two position system instead what the Jag got in 2003. Also the cam covers are plastic and not steel.
Finally the SC 4.2L in the STR got the nice continuous variable VVT in 2006. We don't really have much information on what if any power gains there were? The rating went up to 420HP but at that time there was a bit of a fight about how HP was measured here in the US. The other rumor was the VVT addition to the SC motor was more for emissions and NOT power.
What happened was most POS 4-6 cylinders had to be down-rated and almost all the V-8's gained a bit. This was across all car brands as it was government rating issue really and nothing more.
Of course we still don't have the full on system like BMW. They have a double-vanos system which continuously varies intake and exhaust timing. You can also go one step higher in that some system alter valve timing as well as valve lift. BMW has now added this independently from the timing function. They call it Valvetronic. Only changes lift by 10mm or so and it does include variable cam duration too. This allowed BMW to drop the normal throttle plate like we have in our TB (throttle Bodies).
If we stay with old fashion poppet valve engines they might finally get to the F1 racing level. These cars can have air operated valves (No camshafts) and each valve can be independently computer controlled.
.
.
.
#38
06-18-2012, 08:35 PM
re: classic enger
Based on that description you posted, I think it breaks down like this.
The 'basic' level of camshaft timing control involves the camshaft being 'switched' over 30* in timing, done likely in inside the valve cover, via some mechanical and/or hydraulic 'solenoid'. It only applies to the intake cam, and only does 0 or 30*, just a single 'stage'.
In 2006, they introduced the more 'sophisticated' level of camshaft timing control, where the difference in the timing cover is seen, and everyone keeps citing.
Now the ecu can change cam timing by up to 48*, or, 24* degrees in each +/- direction, and it now does this is in increments.
Other manufacturers followed the same trend, honda vtec was the 'basic' stage, and honda's i-vtec, was the 'sophisticated' stage, with 'continuously variable' valve timing control.
Therein lies the difference.
mostly speculating here though,
LOL, long way away from that becoming mainstream in the forseeable future. It's still a bit of a halo technology, under development in F1, no? The traditional mechanical lobe camshaft I think will be around for quite some time to come, but I guess even your example of bmw's new supervanos, shows how manufacturers are forging ahead in introducing the newest f1 derived technology. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the super-optimized gas engines of the future are just around the corner! With our gas prices, we could use them!
Based on that description you posted, I think it breaks down like this.
The 'basic' level of camshaft timing control involves the camshaft being 'switched' over 30* in timing, done likely in inside the valve cover, via some mechanical and/or hydraulic 'solenoid'. It only applies to the intake cam, and only does 0 or 30*, just a single 'stage'.
In 2006, they introduced the more 'sophisticated' level of camshaft timing control, where the difference in the timing cover is seen, and everyone keeps citing.
Now the ecu can change cam timing by up to 48*, or, 24* degrees in each +/- direction, and it now does this is in increments.
Other manufacturers followed the same trend, honda vtec was the 'basic' stage, and honda's i-vtec, was the 'sophisticated' stage, with 'continuously variable' valve timing control.
Therein lies the difference.
mostly speculating here though,
If we stay with old fashion poppet valve engines they might finally get to the F1 racing level. These cars can have air operated valves (No camshafts) and each valve can be independently computer controlled.
Last edited by GT42R; 06-18-2012 at 08:43 PM.
#39
06-18-2012, 10:08 PM
Veteran Member
No. Jaguar has always used electronic control. And you always can tell the engine has VVT by looking at the cam covers.
Actually the air operated valves are pretty old hat for F1 now! Came out in the mid 1980's and have been pretty standard since then. But they are still running camshafts. A few research engines have been built without cams but don't know if they gained anything??
Here is the Jaguar VVT tensor. Pretty reliable only heard of a few going bad.
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.
.
Actually the air operated valves are pretty old hat for F1 now! Came out in the mid 1980's and have been pretty standard since then. But they are still running camshafts. A few research engines have been built without cams but don't know if they gained anything??
Here is the Jaguar VVT tensor. Pretty reliable only heard of a few going bad.
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.
.
#40
06-19-2012, 01:22 AM
Veteran Member
For the S-Type I believe tbird has it right - the 2006 was only the STR. The other cars already had it. Yes, it's electronic. My car being before 2006 just has flats where the wires are on the 2006+ cars.
If it had added 30HP there's no way Jaguar would have been less than loud & clear about it...
If it had added 30HP there's no way Jaguar would have been less than loud & clear about it...
Last edited by JagV8; 06-19-2012 at 01:25 AM.
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