I will DO that again next week .. when I have the car back again,

bit of history again on the car. when compression test were taken these are the results I got :

cylinder 1 180 , cylinder 3 180 cylinder 5 175
cylinder 2 210 , cylinder 4 210. cylinder 6 210 Also before I worked on the injectors Again replacing parts I was getting both rich codes P0172,P0175 for both banks - NOW yesterday when i pulled codes
P0175 was not there HOWEVER car is IDLELING ROUGHER now than before ....

 

In this day and age, you might want to include a trigger warning before posting something so scary. Might cause a cranky old geezer like me to keel over and expire, clutching my chest as I take my last breath. Not the way I was hoping to go. An eBay special injector rebuild kit? That's even scarier than naked pictures of Rosie O'Donnell...

I've been reading some of your older threads, trying to extrapolate the history of this car. Does the following sound right? It's a project car from an auction, so any history before you is essentially unknown. It needed a head gasket, so you replaced that yourself. (One side or both?) In the time you've owned the car, you've mostly just worked on it but never driven it much at all, so you've never really blown out the cobwebs. You've never had the car to the point that it runs well and doesn't set any fault codes. Lots and lots of parts have been changed, including some that were likely perfectly good. Does this sound more or less accurate?

The most recent codes (one or both banks running rich) are not very common. The newest misfire code is a bit worrisome, but I have to wonder if that's a secondary thing, caused by running rich. I don't really know. I did some research yesterday, looking up common faults that could cause a rich condition on both banks. There are a few sensors that theoretically could be responsible, but most of those have already been changed. Never forget that new parts can be bad out of the box, but keep that idea on the back burner for now.

I did some mental aerobics on how we could test those sensors, but after hearing your sordid tale of Ebay injector repair kits, well... Can't say I've ever heard much positive things about repairing injectors at home. My take is an injector is a sealed unit, not to be disassembled at home. A professional rebuild service will flow test them, check the spray pattern, etc. None of that good stuff happens at home. If the new injector screens flow more fuel than the original ones, well, there's your problem right there. Or maybe some punk kid previous owner installed high flow injectors, thinking this would magically produce more power. (Foolish kid didn't know what he was doing, as chrome accessories and low profile tires are the only proven methods to increase performance.)

So given the chance to spend your time and money, I'd suggest a set of new or PROFESSIONALLY rebuilt injectors. Bad injectors were the first thing listed as potential causes for codes P0172 and P0175.

One word of caution, on a philosophical level. Avoid the Goddard Principle while working on anything. There's a factor in troubleshooting unofficially called the "Goodard Principle". (This was taught at a Boeing-sponsered class I attended) It's named after Robert Goddard, rocketry pioneer. As brilliant as he was, he also tended to make many changes at the same time during his years of experiments. For example, he might have changed the rocket fuel formula, the pump pressure, and the nozzle shape for a particular test. Let's say this particular rocket flew X amount higher, which was good, but he had no way of knowing which change was responsible. Could be two of the changes helped, but not the third, but it was impossible to discern. That's why we were taught, whenever possible, to only make one change at a time during troubleshooting. Test that one change, and then proceed to the next step if needed. I mention this not to chastise you, but out of concern that you may have inadvertently set yourself back a few steps messing with (probably good) injectors "while you were in there".

 

oh yea ! your pretty acurate on your assesment of car history .. many parts replaced ,, no previuos car history known , NOT driven much ..

got something scarier than Rossie O'Donnell naked .. Ann Coulter in the fletch …..hahaha...!

what Do you think of the compression results ? and yea I suppose in the anxiety of getting the car running as I would like - I have replaced many things at once where I should have taken it one step at time .. BOTH head gaskets were replaced too..

actually I m planning on driving the car now on the weekly basis back and forth to work only - just got the emission test done and register the car its LEGAL NOW..
don't ask me how I got the emission test done . 160 buck from Jaguar shop..

So before looking at getting rebuild injectors I like to drive a bit more and get DATA when car is hot !!

any recommendations where to get the injectors is Ebay a good option ??

 

For the compression test results, it's a little disconcerting to see one bank consistently lower than the other. That could be all sorts of things, such as a head gasket that didn't seal, a cam problem, etc. But for the moment, let's not go down that rabbit hole. The results aren't perfect, but not bad enough to sidetrack us right now. Heck, it could be as simple as bad injectors flooding those cylinders and washing away the oil, which reduces compression.

Your plan to drive the car may help, the proverbial (Insert name of ethnic group) tune-up. Who knows, maybe you've got some obscure fault like a mouse nest in the exhaust. But please be VERY careful in case the check engine light starts flashing. That means your catalytic converters are in the danger zone for a meltdown ($$$$!!!).

For driving the car, a different mindset may help. You are well beyond the point of blindly throwing wild Hail Mary passes, hoping for a quick fix. Ain't gonna happen, get used to it. Instead, think of yourself as a scientist with a lab coat and clipboard, conducting a controlled scientific experiment. Make one change, and one change only, and record how the symptoms respond In this case, see if anything changes (better or worse) by working the engine and getting everything up to normal temperature.

Be prepared for things to actually get worse, so don't be alarmed. That's just more data to analyze the problem. Remember, you're no longer Johnny Quarterback, about to save the game with a last minute 98 yard pass. (If I just change this one more part...) Instead, if this was a professional football team, you're a lowly intern analyst reviewing game tapes, looking for little clues. You WILL figure this out, but likely not in the glorious manner in which you had hoped.

With that said, I'm still leaning towards bad injectors. You've messed with them (were probably adequate if not perfect), changed their characteristics, and generated NEW fault codes pointing at them.

If you want to replace them, is eBay a good source? A big fat maybe. A brand name part will be the same, whether you get it locally, Amazon, eBay, etc. But the no-name stuff you can find online, especially eBay? That's typically Chinese crap. (Some house brands from discount auto part chains are the same way.) On the forum, we've seen lots of trouble with no-name ignition coils from eBay. There's a VERY good reason those parts sell for way less, and it isn't good. So stick with a quality brand no matter where you get parts.

 

To be honest, this whole saga is a mess.
We don't know your abilities, and it is difficult to judge, if what you are doing makes any sense.
I doubt you can change the characteristics of the injectors by fiddling. But you can check the spray pattern by using a fluid, a trigger current and compressed air. That is about what you can do, simply.
The missing compression on the one bank of cylinders can almost only be explained by a systematic problem. Timing, one way or another. My money is on a wrongly adjusted cam timing.
In my view, you have to trace EVERYTHING you have done, and verify the soundness of you work.
To guess/act at random is not smart.

 

I get it ! Srt you're questioning my abilities .. FYI I have done t-belt changes on a Audi, infiniti, dodge , .camaro z28 .. so I m NO professional mechanic but I have been around ... I recalled taking the time carefully DOING the timing on it.. however STILL A POSSIBILITY IS OFF .. so i guess that will be last option to take it APART and check that out AFTER EVERYTHING ELSE FAILS . I AGREE KR98664 have to approach this whole thing as a science project NOW !

I do appreciate the advise on tracing EVERYTHING BACK it does make sense .. I used to get two codes on both banks RUNNING RICH , now its only bank 1 ?? NOT sure if that is an improvement ..
My Plan now is perhaps :

replaced back THE OLD O2 SENSORS BACK OR SWAPP BANK 2 SENSORS TO BANK 1 ..., easy thing to DO ..

then check it out see how IT FEELS ?? then replace back the OLD MAF sensor then test the INJECTORS... BEFORE i COMMIT TO SPENDING MORE MONEY ON REBUILT ON NEW ONES..

THANKS GUYS ..

 

So I gets to thinking...

IF (Big IF) the cam timing was off, what fault codes and other symptoms would you see?

Are there even any fault codes specific to cam timing? I'd tend to think not, as that's a very rare condition, so the computer is probably not even programmed to look for that. Nor would the engineers expect to see a cam timing problem, as that's a mechanic-induced issue, not something you'd typically see in normal service. One caveat, maybe they did consider the timing chain might jump a few teeth, but I'm not sure if these engines are prone to that.

​​​​​​I'd imagine a cam problem would likely set some kind of fault code, but can it reliably point to the root problem? Or would the computer misinterpret the readings as something else, such as a rich condition, VVT issue, etc?

It would be extremely helpful if somebody with a bona fide cam timing issue could report exactly what codes and symptoms they had. Seems like a very rare scenario, though. I'd probably have better luck collecting unicorn tears...

 

I don't recall anyone ever posting they've had jumped teeth other than on the early 4.0.

 

I don't either, but the timing would have had to have been reset when the head gaskets were done, and after reading the procedure for setting there's
a lot of scope for getting it wrong.

 

well here goes....my son has a 2004 ford f150 with a 5.4 and vvt valve train....it broke the timing chain on the passengers side....it was fixed at the ford dealership...on the way home the check engine light came on...one was for timing over advanced bank 1 and the other was the same for bank 2...after arguing with ford a bit, they finally admitted to timing being off one tooth after repair....i think your car would have the same codes either advanced or retarded ....now here are some numbers to consider..these are off my car...a 2006 str..4.2 v8 supercharged, with a bigger intake tube and piping, so it moves a lot of air...at idle it is basically natural aspirated....here are my numbers...ambient air 96f or 36c....coolant temp 199f or 93c...650 rpm .8(point 8) lbs a minute maf or 6.04g/second....now you are reading 8.17g/second at your maf....that is more than my v8....I think you have a faulty maf....now maybe someone with a v6 can read their maf at idle and post it..I could very well be wrong in my sherlock holmes impersonation...if that is happening the ecm thinks a whole lot more air is coming in than actually happening....the mixture is richened, the o2 sensors pick up the excess fuel and lean out the mixture to where you see those way negative trims and the car barely has enough fuel to run....the key here is to absolutely verify that both your mafs are correct or not by using a jaguar part number for reference....need to retake your numbers at full operating temp and normal idle speed and post for comparison

 

great work scottjh9,
as I remembered I had the oem MAF sensor and was still getting codes although I had NOT rebuild the injectors at the point then i replaced it with a cheap MAF sensor from ebay .
I know NOT A WISE SOURCE OF parts .. however ! be that as it may .. I can replace the oem MAF back on and see the difference in numbers if ANY ..

guess that will be my starting point when I get back from work tomorrow.!! then ill be looking at the 02 sensors ..on Bank1 which is the most problematic Bank

thanks again everybody.

 

I think your cheap maf sensor is definitely bad...i did the same thing on my car about 2 years ago....bit the bullet and got one from autozone ,still working great...now, your original maf could be oem but still faulty....i might get yelled at for this, but i would trust autozone or any other major parts store

 

Substituting the MAF sensor is certainly a logical first step, I agree, and easy to do. The MAF sesnor is easily damaged, eg. using compressed air for cleaning.
Let's see where it takes you.

 

You may be on to something. Good catch on the numbers. I tested my '02 V6 (runs great, no fault codes) this morning on the ride to work.

Fully warmed up (the car, not necessarily me), 65F ambient.

At 750 RPM idle, the MAF showed around 5.0 grams/second. If my car's MAF is reasonably accurate, this is quite a difference from the 8.17 observed.
At 2000 RPM, approximately 63MPH on flat ground, I saw approximately 22 grams/second. This number surprisingly jumped around quite a bit, maybe 19-25, but 22 was a good average.

Here's one more bit for troubleshooting. You can roughly check the calibration with the key on, but engine off. With no airflow, you should see zero, or nearly so. On my car, I had 0.13 grams/second, just a smidge above true zero. This doesn't guarantee the MAF is accurate at higher flow rates, but if not showing zero-ish with zero airflow, you've got a bad sensor.

One problem I do see, however, is that I've already stuck my neck out there and said the injectors are bad. We need to discount the MAF theory and work towards bad injectors so I can be right.

 

Ah, big clue there. We may have to put you on the torture rack to continue extracting these little tidbits of information. No screaming, please. It's for your own good.

 

More pieces of the puzzle. I had been wondering why no relevant codes were present for a possible cam timing issue. I dug a little deeper. I didn't see any specific codes, but some that were kinda close:

http://www.jagrepair.com/images/Auto..._OBD_II_R2.pdf


In almost all cases, you had to complete at least one drive cycle. Just running at idle or even revving the engine wouldn't be enough to set the code. Too many codes to list, try searching for CAM, CMP, and VVT to see the possible codes and their prerequisites.

But alas, the winds have shifted and for the moment, a faulty MAF sensor seems more likely. But IF (still a big IF) cam timing is an issue, those codes may not be set until a complete drive cycle or two.

 

Wow Karl, 65f ambient.....can i come for a visit...i found the codes my son truck had...PO011 and PO021.....long story short,they claimed it was the vvt system at first, but when i read timing at home before we took it back, i was getting 15 degrees advanced at idle, warmed up....anyway the vvt system is not active at idle, just like egr....when OP posts some new numbers we can go from there

 

one more thing guys.. maybe unrelated/related to my troubles !! i have been meaning to ask about the IAT where is it located ? Is it in the filter box as I see something on my filter box ( looks just like a connector NO sensor or wiring going anywhere ) I M VERY CURIOUS IF ANYBODY CAN TELL ME THAT TOO- i can post a photo of it ??

IF its Not raining later today when I get home after work . I ' ll be looking at swapping the MAF sensors and running numbers again ! let you ALL know ..

also i found this info related to CMP, CAM and VVT codes :Variable Valve Timing (VCT) is a technology that Ford and other vehicle manufacturers use to alter camshaft timing for optimum performance, emissions and fuel economy. The VCT actuator mechanism on the end of the camshaft(s) uses engine oil pressure to advance or retard cam timing. How much cam timing is advanced or retarded depends on operating conditions and will vary with engine speed, load and other variables.
Oil pressure to each of the VCT actuators (one for each camshaft) is routed through a VCT solenoid (one for each actuator). The opening and closing of the VCT solenoids is controlled by the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) based on inputs from the engine's Cam Position (CMP) sensors, Throttle Position (TPS) sensor, Mass Airflow (MAF) sensor, Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor, transmission gear range, vehicle speed and other inputs.
When a timing change is needed, the PCM commands the VCT solenoids to change position so oil pressure either flows to or is blocked from reaching the VCT actuators on the intake and/or exhaust camshafts. The PCM monitors the change in camshaft timing via feedback from the Cam Position sensors.

Ford Variable Cam Timing Problems and Fault Codes

If a cam timing change does not occur when it is commanded by the PCM (no change in the relative position of one of the camshafts as reported by the cam position sensor), or if cam timing changes by the wrong amount (too much or too little), it will set one or more fault codes and turn on the Check Engine light.

Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs) that often occur with Variable Cam Timing faults include:

P0011....A Camshaft Position Timing Over-Advanced or System Fault Bank 1
P0012....A Camshaft Position Timing Over-Retarded Bank 1
P0013....B Camshaft Position Actuator Circuit Bank 1
P0014....B Camshaft Position Timing Over-Advanced or System Fault Bank 1
P0015....B Camshaft Position Timing Over-Retarded Bank 1
P0016....Cam/Crankshaft Position Correlation Sensor A - Bank 1
P0017....Cam/Crankshaft Position Correlation Sensor B - Bank 1
P0018....Cam/Crankshaft Position Correlation Sensor A - Bank 2
P0019....Cam/Crankshaft Position Correlation Sensor B - Bank 2
P0020....A Camshaft Position Actuator Circuit Bank 2
P0021....A Camshaft Position Timing Over-Advanced or System Fault Bank 2
P0022....A Camshaft Position Timing Over-Retarded Bank 2
P0023....B Camshaft Position Actuator Circuit Bank 2
P0024....B Camshaft Position Timing Over-Advanced or System Fault Bank 2
P0025....B Camshaft Position Timing Over-Retarded Bank 2
P0026....Intake Valve-Bank 1 Control Solenoid CKT Range/Performance
P0027....Exhaust Valve-Bank1 Control Solenoid CKT Range/Performance
P0028....Intake Valve-Bank 2 Control Solenoid CKT Range/Performance
P0029....Exhaust Valve-Bank2 Control Solenoid CKT Range/Performance

Related Symptoms:

A problem with the Variable Cam Timing system may cause the following symptoms:

A rough idle
Decreased fuel economy
Decreased power when accelerating hard

Ford Variable Cam Timing Code Diagnosis

If you find a code that says one of the cams is over-advanced or over-retarded, the problem could be either a faulty VCT actuator on that cam, a bad VCT solenoid for that cam, or possibly a faulty wiring connection to the VCT solenoid.

The most common cause of VCT codes and problems is dirty oil. Varnish and gunk can build up inside the VCT solenoid(s) and/or VCT actuators, restricting or blocking the flow of oil through these parts. A plugged VCT solenoid may not allow enough oil pressure or any oil pressure to flow to the cam actuator, preventing the cam from changing time. Or, if the VCT solenoid is opening and closing properly, but the actuator is gummed up with gunk, the actuator may fail to change cam timing.
NOTE: Variable Cam Timing problems can also occur is an engine has low oil pressure. Low oil pressure can be caused by worn engine bearings, a worn oil pump, low oil level in the crankcase, or using a motor oil that is too thin (low viscosity rating) for the application. For more information on this subject, see Troubleshooting Low Oil Pressure.

VCT Repairs

The VCT solenoids are located on the engine's valve covers.

First, check the electrical connector to see if it is loose or corroded. If the connector is making good contact but the solenoid does not respond when energized (no click), the solenoid has failed and needs to be replaced.

A plugged solenoid may open and close when energized (it will click), but the internal screen inside the solenoid may be so plugged up with gunk that it may not allow any oil flow to the actuator (or not enough to make it change cam timing). You can remove and attempt to clean the solenoid by spraying solvent into the oil passageways, or soaking the solenoid in solvent. But they can be difficult to clean. The best advice is to replace the solenoid with a new one.
Important: If one or more VCT solenoids (or actuators) are plugged with gunk, change the oil and filter and change your oil more frequently to prevent the same problem from occurring again. Many experts recommend changing the oil and filter every 5,000 miles to prevent gunk from clogging the VCT actuators and solenoids.

Ford Variable Cam Timing Solenoid

Ford Technical Service Bulletin 16-0038

Ford TSB 16-0038 was issued March 3, 2016 for vehicles that may be experiencing Variable Cam Timing problems. The bulletin covers the following vehicles with 3.5L turbocharged V6 engines:

2016 Ford Expedition
2016 F150 Pickup Trucks
2016 Transit
2016 Lincoln Navigator

The above vehicles may have a Check Engine light illuminated with any of the following codes: P0011, P0015, P0016, P0017, P0018, P0019, P0021 and/or P0025.

If your Ford has codes P0011 and P0016, replace the bank 1 intake VCT solenoid.

If your Ford has codes P0015 and P0017, replace the bank 1 exhaust VCT solenoid.

If your Ford has codes P0018 and P0021, replace the bank 2 intake VCT solenoid.

If your Ford has codes P0019 and P0025, replace the bank 2 exhaust VCT solenoid.

Ford OEM Replacement Part Numbers:

The replacement VCT solenoids for the left side exhaust or right side intake are AT4Z-6M280-A.

The replacement VCT solenoid for the left side intake is AT4Z-6M280-B.

The replacement VCT solenoid for the right side exhaust cam is AT4Z-6M280-C.

Other Ford Applications with VCT:

Ford 4.6L, 5.0L and 5.4L V8 engines also have Variable Cam Timing, as do Ford 3.7L CNG/LPG V6 engines. Like the Ford applications listed in the above TSB, any of these engines can also experience similar problems. The higher the mileage on the engine, and the older the vehicle, the more likely one or more VCT solenoids and/or actuators may become clogged with gunk and varnish if you don't change your oil and filter regularly. Use a quality motor oil that meets Ford OEM specs when you change oil, and use a long life name brand filter.


Related Articles

Variable Valve Timing Basics

Diagnosing Engine Noise

Troubleshooting Low Oil Pressure

Oil Pump Diagnosis

Oil Pumps: The Heart of the Engine

Camshafts


Click Here To See More Automotive Technical Articles


sorry for long list ...lol

 

UPDATE . so IN with the OLD OUT with the NEW .. " restricted performance " warning GONE...…. not the check engine light P0172 current and pending one … so I erased the code drove back and forth to gym ALL GOOD so far,,,,,

I also too some data the following : NO CHECK ENGINE LIGHT SO FAR..

calculated LOAD value 24.7%
engine coolant temperature 99 c
STFT BANK1 -0.8%
LTFT BANK1 -8.6%
STFT BANK -0.8%
LTFT BANK 10.9%

FUEL RAIL PRESSURE 384 Kpa
INTAKE MANIFOLD ABSOLUTE PRESSURE 49.0 kpa
ENGINE RPM 726
IGNITIO TIMING ADVANCED FOR #1 14,5 degrees
INTAKE AIR TEMPERATURE 36 C
AIR FLOW RATE FROM MASS FLOW AIR SENSOR 6.29 g/s
ABSOLUTE THROTLE POSITION 3.9% And others IF needed I can post them ??

 

Excellent...the trims should normalize the more varied the driving if all is good....did you verify old maf to be correct by the way....you still may have an o2 sensor issue, but that can be dealt with after more driving....they had to eat alot of unburnt fuel.....maybe find a nice spot to really turn it loose and heat those cats up.....i like a product called cataclean to help clean everything....use it at a max of 1/4 tank or less for best results i found