Wow, you guys just keep pumping wonderful info! I have not checked the forum in the last few days, due to having too much fun driving around! But now it`s back to work, and time for a more cool-headed appreciation of the car. Confort is, from 1 to 5, about 6.5 )). I have a bad back, and even with shortish trips, sometimes had slight pains after getting home. Not anymore! The handling is a bit top-heavy compared to my other cars, and I`m still getting used to the kind of feedback it gives when cornering, but there are no weird reactions, no clunks, and only a slight noise when going over really nasty bumps. Everything is wonderful with the car, and the only thing that bugs me is the slow response. I do not know anyone who has another 2.7 Jag, so no luck there...but I have experience driving other modern common-rail cars, with VGTs, and none had such a lethargic response. They were smaller and lighter, but had smaller engines (Astra 1.9CdTi, Focus 1.6 Tdci, Kia 2.0 CRDi, and short test drives in BMWs and one Audi) with just one turbo. The Focus, in particular, uses the same turbo, and had a much earlier response. I know that, in the V6, each turbo is only getting gases from 1360ccs, but still, it seems to take too long, almost as if it were a fixed-geometry turbo. Even my old Volvo 440TD, with 1870, no variable anything and mechanical injection, had an earlier response (after tweaked...no response at all before, at any revs:)). My main concern is that something may be in need of attention. Maybe the Variable-vanes are stuck (happens all the time with other engines), or the catalysers are partly blocked, or something with the EGR...what would be the effects with a EGR valve blocked? Should it not trigger an engine light? I have bought an ELM327 with the hope of finding something before having to start dismantling parts, and will use it on the weekend, but any suggestions are welcome, especially with error codes that could be related to the above faults. If nothing comes up, I will dismantle just enough to look into the turbos, to check the movement of the variable vanes, and to look into the catalyzers.

Thanks to all posters for the comments and suggestions.

Daniel Frois

 

I`ve heard the turbo actuators rods can stick or even seize but this would normally throw up a fault code.
Worth having a look maybe ?

 

Glasgow to York and back, so mainly motorway or fast A roads. I averaged 49 mph and got 37.5 mpg with no attempts to drive economically.

 

Good to know that. The trip computer tells me I`m doing between 34 and 38 mpg on my commuting trips, which are mainly highway with about 10% citywork, so it`s about right. And that is also, as Delta66 so quaintly put it, "with no attempts to drive economically"...The car feels fine, and the ELM327 reported no fault codes at all. I will have the EGR and the turbo rods checked at the next service, which is due anytime now. Will probably go to a dealer, since I haven`t found a workshop anywhere that is familiar with this car. It is fairly rare here. I still think it is fairly soft from a standing start, and have begun to wonder if it is something deliberately programmed into the engine management to restrict torque in 1st and 2nd, to allow a more Jaguar-like motion (brisk, but not violent), or perhaps to diminish the performance gap to the automatic version. After all, if the manual were MUCH faster to 60, it would not look good on paper...

Any thoughts? Or maybe I should start a new thread on this?

DF

 

They do have a `relaxed` getaway but still deceivingly rapid, there is only a couple of tenths of a second difference in the 0-60 times between man/auto.
The question is...... Do you feel like Royalty when your driving it ?

 

Glad you posted again, it reminds me; my 2.7D S-type goes into restricted performance very rarely, with no fault showing, but it does so indicate on the LCD sreen. Your lack of 'pep' on takeoff might be some issue like that -- I don't trust that computer to be competent at its job.
We don't know the gear ratios of the manual vs. the autobox. I can say that this engine in mine pulls quite noticeably at only 1500rpm., (autobox) and was hailed by the english motoring press at the time of its release as having phenomenal torque. As you may know, power and torque outputs of turbocharged diesel engines can be altered quite easily. The Renault Megane dci 1.5 engine comes with 70horse, 86horse or 106horse to your choice. So does its french competitor, the Peugeot-Citroen 1.6. The C4 I had used the 110horse engine and went like a rocket. That was through an autobox, but of a totally different type to the hydraulic boxes in Jags. It was a six-speed manual with electric clutch and shift -- only £500 extra. Also lossless.
As regards any fault codes, I think you'll need a dealer to show them, I don't believe the little hand-held scanners can show everything in Jags.
IF you have a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) it could be clogged. If your chrome tail-pipes stick out straight you have one, if they curl toward the road, you don't. Un- clogging a DPF is supposed to be achieved by a good burn-up.
Leedsman.

 

To dervdave: Ahahahah, yes it does make me feel kind of special, as in "lucky to have found about this". I`m sure the BMWs and MErcs would not be able to do that!!!

To Leedsman:

There are no indications of Restricted Performance, and I can tell you that, on 3rd and above, over 2000rpm, there is nothing restricted about its performance that I can see . The car does not have a DPF (downturned tailpipes), which is why I thought of seized VGT mechanisms. However, I have noticed, on the Jaguar S-Type 2.7D V6 Technical Guide, that the manual has a final diff ratio of 2.74:1, whereas the auto has the same 3.05:1 ratio that is on the 3.0V6 petrol...perhaps another measure to make the performance gap smaller? I remember when I saw that because I thought: "Hmmm, maybe a used 3.0V6 diff could be used here??" but did not follow the idea. It is very smooth and silent, and lag is noticeable, probably due to the volume of all the piping and intercooler that compressed air has to go through before reaching the engine, but still...I would have thought a modern, VGT-equipped Turbo-diesel should do better. All the other ones I know do...Let`s see what the next checks will reveal. Perhaps I should try cleaning the two MAFs and the throttle body,just before the intakes...will let you know how it goes.

I am fairly confident that I will get to the bottom of this. It will just take some time and work. However, I`m short on time...it may take a while.

Thanks for all your help.

DF

 

I think that bigger and particularly quieter cars do not appear to have the same urge as other 'lesser' ones.....

 

I'm not aware a diesel engine would have either a throttle or mass airflow sensor. Knowing Jag. designers, I wouldn't put it past them though. I always understood the whole point of a diesel is that the inlet air is UN-throttled, hence its fuel efficiency. There would appear no reason to measure the inlet airflow either on a diesel.
If I were you, I'd concentrate on the the turbocharging area. If the turbo bearings are seized (not uncommon due to the heat) there will be a loss of power. But I would have thought with all the sensors on these engines, the computer would be aware of this. Should be a simple job to measure the boost pressure though. It should be above atm. at 1500rpm.
If it turns out the bearings are seized or sticky, after fixing, change the engine oil for full synthetic, it doesn't break down like mineral with heat. Synthetic was developed in the 1960s for jet engines.
Best of luck, Leedsman.
Afterthought -- the problem isn't something v. simple like a clogged aircleaner? Maxim when your a fixer, "always go for the simple things first".

 

Delta66, that is also my experience. I have always put it down to the fact that many of the measures carmakers take to achieve reduced NVH also tend to restrict out-and-out performance, ranging from simple effect of added weight to exhaust and admission restrictions due to noise, and even engine maps that avoid sudden transitions between low and high power production.

Very good points, leedsman, but, having read the Jaguar document entitled " 2.7D V6 Introduction - Technical Guide" (I`m not sure that`s the exact name, but it`s close), I can safely tell you the the 2.7D has not one, but two Mass Airflow Sensors, right after the exit of the air filter, and one throttle body, at the entrance to the plenum chamber above the engine, where the EGR gasses also enter, which connects to the intake manifolds. The air there is under pressure there from the turbos. Most modern diesels have a MAF, because the amount of air is one of the main inputs to calculate the amount of fuel that must be injected, but this is the first one that I saw with a throttle body. From the book, it appears that it is connected with smoothing the power delivery, but I may be wrong.
Of course, the points you make about the turbos are very valid, as usual, and it is only lack of time that has prevented me from doing further analysis, which will happen soon, as in this week or the weekend. I have checked the air filter, and it is not a pretty sight, but I do not believe it is the only cause. If it were winter, I might gamble on trying to drive for a few minutes without a filter to see just how much difference it makes, but Summer in Portugal is very hot and very dusty, and I don`t want to risk it. However, from the book, it does seem as if any of the problems that we have thought of should have triggered an engine code...but there are none. I will have to lift it, take the undertray off and see if I can find an answer. I also want to find a way to connect a pressure gauge to the exit of each turbo, to check for absolute and relative values. I have two gauges, but have not found any connection point. If not, dismantle, clean, inspect and replace...as I have done in several other cars. In fact, I have done it on every car I have purchased second-hand, sooner or later...so it might as well be now.

On a personal rant, I find it unbelievable that more and more carmakers sell turbo cars without a pressure gauge in the dashboard. Monitoring pressure is the best and earliest way to tell if there is a problem with the turbo or its related parts, but it seems only Turbo Porsches and very old cars have them as standard. To me, it`s another case of the bean-counters and marketing overriding the engineers. Sorry, rant over.

Will let the forum know what I find, for the record. Maybe it will help someone else in the future. Or, I will find nothing, and it`s just me being nosey and out of touch with reality...in which case you can all call me whatever names you feel appropriate.

Thanks for the help.

Daniel Frois

 

If there are pressure sensors they will be readable via the DLC (OBD connector).

The vast majority of jag drivers may check oil, tyres etc but I doubt they would want a dash with any more gauges (and the extra cost). Evo/scooby drivers, maybe. Nothing to stop you adding your own, but if you can find an electrical or similar manual maybe you can tell whether any sensors are already fitted.

I believe you're right that there are 2 MAFs. (Not sure about the TB.)
jag normally say not to clean these items but with the right chemicals and care....

 

Hi again,

As you can see from my updated signature, I am also a scooby driver......but not the average tune-it-till-it-blows suburb backstreet tuner. My car has never had any "power upgrades", and is perfectly factory stock, down to the exhaust, wheels and tire size...which is why it has never had ANY breakdown of any kind, apart from a flat tire. I like it a lot, having had the present one, a 2000 StationWagon, for 7 years as a day-to-day commuter car, and a previous one, sedan, for 18 months (the birth of our first son triggered the change to the wagon). I admire its mechanical conception, its dynamic capabilities, and the way it is engineered to work well without failing, even if abused as many are. However, its downsides (mainly fuel consumption and lack of confort...and my old age!) led me to the S-Type, which I admire immensely and hope will be my car for many years to come. It has all the things that the Subaru has not, and is indeed a different world as a car. A much nicer world...

There are indeed pressure sensors on the 2.7D engine, but they are connected to the ECU. There must be one for each turbo, as there are separate codes for problems in each one separately. I do not know if I can read the signal from them to display to some sort of gauge or display, but I will look into it. I think there are LCD Multi-Displays that can read and show OBD values, but I seem to remember they are quite expensive. However, I do not want to install pressure gauges permanently in the cockpit of the S-Type. I would be too afraid to ruin it as a nice place to be, and I would not know where to put them. I just want to be able to connect them temporarily, as a diagnostic/monitoring tool, to use only when/if needed to see if the turbo side of things is working correctly. Even on the Subaru, I have a pipe under the dash, with the other end in the engine bay, close to a pressure pickup point, but it is not there permanently. I would like to do the same to the Jaguar, but from the diagrams I have seen, it will not be easy. And there is the "small" issue of routing the pipes into the cockpit...does not seem easy. However, my main problem is lack of time. Thanks to this forum and other sources, I have now more knowledge and things to try than time to do them in, which is why I talk a lot about the car but do little work in it. Family life, and a steady job means I would have to get rich overnight to do what I want.

But, then again, I would probably have an S-Type R in that case. And a 1976 911 Carrera RSR. And a Lighweight E-Type. And a XJ-C 5.3. And a 250 GTO. And a...you get my drift.

Sorry for the long post. It`s slow here today.

DF

 

Ah-ha Dfrois, I can see where you're coming from! Measuring the mass airflow is probably much more accurate and appropriate to cover the injection mapping for those lovely piezoelectric injectors, as opposed to the old-fashioned mechanical injectors where one only needed boost pressure. And now you've triggered my memory, there WAS in the old days a diesel Mercedes with a throttle (indirect injection), but I never found out why.
I had a Fiat diesel Tipo many years ago with the first all-electronic dash. It had a bright bar-graph display for the manifold boost pressure, and one could feel it working. However it was the thirstiest diesel car I ever had 'til then. Only about 27mpg.
Good luck with sourcing the prob., Leedsman.

 

I'm sure there will be OBD ways to read as many things as the PCM knows.... but they will in many cases be special OBD commands which very likely jag do not publish openly

You can get MAF, MAP etc as they are generic OBD (a cheap £15 elm327 will do). Probably not the turbo pressures unless you can find out the magic values for the extra OBD commands

 

Thanks, Jagv8. I have got an ELM327 and I managed to successfully connect it to my car. The software was able to read values live, but since I only tried it with the car stopped, at idle, I did not noticed any great fluctuations on the values of MAP and MAF. They varied a bit when revving, so there`s promise there.

I have read carefully the "Jaguar Technical Guide S-Type 2.7 V6 Diesel Engine Introduction, 2004.75 Model Year", and the description of the engine`s details is very interesting. I can now tell you that there are no independent boost pressure sensors for each turbo, only a central one measuring Manifold Absolute Pressure. Interestingly, it is placed on something called Throttle Housing, where indeed there is an electrically actuated Throttle. There are another six throttle-like devices, one per cylinder, which deactivate one of the two intake ports of each cylinder during certain running conditions (don`t know the conditions the document refers to). I know BMW engines have them too, and in those sometimes the axle for one of the plates broke and the whole mess was ingested by the engine, with horrible consequences. Pistons, head, valves and turbo were, in the worst cases, scrapped because of this, so much so that most knowledgeable people recommend removing them when purchasing a used car with the mechanism. Some E60 530D`s have had new engines under warrranty because of this...one had 3 before running out of warranty! Fortunately, there are no similar failures reported on the 2.7D engine.

I`ll play a bit more with the ELM327 during the weekend. If it can read MAP well, I guess I`ll just buy one of the OBD gauges thingies and use that.

Thanks.

Daniel Fróis

 

Lots of OBD software, as one of its functions, will record data for later playback. Most can also graph data or show it as dials etc. None of the free code will do that, I believe.

If you want any sensors that are not generic, conside AutoEnginuity (Search will get you more, both here & google). Will be in the range of £300 ($450). But ask them if they support the extra sensors & actuators for the jag diesel. (I have the tool but don't have access to a diesel to try it. It supports the STR's extra sensors such as IAT2.)

The fairly standard generic items are detailed (!) here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBD-II_PIDs

You might do better to ask some of your issues on www.jaguarforum.co.uk because there are a LOT of 2.7D S-Types in the EU but especially in the UK.

Not many people have seen that jag Technical Guide, or indeed the many other ones, I gather.

 

Thanks. I will look into AutoEnginuity. It seems like it may be a tool worth having. I will start a thread on the co.uk forum about the issues and OBD tools.The Technical guide is wonderful, especially for someone like me, who knows how engines work, but need to know the working details of a specific implementation. It even says what happens when a fault arises: how the system should behave, if codes are logged or not, and if MIL light will come on or not. I think it is invaluable. I would like to read others related to the S-Type, but have not found any.

On the plus side, I installed blanking plates for the EGR pipes on the weekend, and the engine is definitely much stronger low down. Still not as strong as I would hope it would be, but a very noticeable improvement. I have filled with Premium diesel twice, fitted the plates, changed the air filter, topped off the oil and given it a good rev blast up to 4200 rpm 3 or 4 times, all in the last week. I don`t know what did it, but it is getting better. Maybe it`s just adapting. Next weekend will be oil change, oil filter change, and finally I will get a chance to look underneath, remove the undertray and check vane actuator movement, if it is possible to check it manually. There is also a very small oil leak on left-hand side, and the intercooler inlet pipe is humid with oil. I want to try to find out where it comes from, or, if not possible, clean it all and then see where it appears.
The ownership experience has been, nevertheless, marvellous. My wife likes to ride in the back seat (!), the kids want to go everywhere in it "...to see the map with the nice lady talking..." and the car has been steadily growing on me, both as a well-made engineering device and as a pleasant tool to get my aging and tired carcass somewhere and back. It is beautiful to look at, pleasant to drive and special to be in. It is worth the effort to get it, and keep it, working properly.

Thanks.

Daniel Frois

 

A lot of the car is the same as the other S-Types and described in detail in the workshop manual (ebay $5-10, £2-4, I guess EUR 3-5).

There are lots of Technical Guides. Commonly the earlier ones are on the workshop manual CD/DVD. The later can probably still be bought (on paper) from any dealer. Or downloaded from jag's GTR / TOPIx site (it's not free but if used only a little it's not too bad).

The same is true of later Electrical Guides.

By "later" I mean when the workshop manual (JTIS) stopped (and became GTR etc): about 2004, around the introduction of the 2.7D.

Somewhere there MUST be a list of DTCs (codes) for the 2.7D but I have not found it
There are codes for the 2.7D which do not exist for the petrol models. That may cause you trouble one day

I think you'd have to check the AutoEnginuity site with care or better still ask them how well and in what ways the 2.7D is supported. Their email support seems OK.

 

Well, here`s a bummer. I emailed the Autoenginuity people about specific support for the Diesel S-Type and got this reply:

- Quote -
AutoEnginuity Support <support@autoenginuity.com> to Daniel Frois <dfrois@gmail.com>
4:39pm


Daniel,

We will have support for this vehicle with the exception of the diesel engine controller. The engineers spent 2 weeks in the UK and never managed to find a vehicle with this engine to test on. Until we test, we can’t release the coverage, sorry.

Bill
Technical/Sales Support
480.827.8665
support@autoenginuity.com

- End of quote -



They seem nice people, and serious about what they do. They were upfront, and did not conceal the issue. For that alone they deserve credit. I volunteered my car as a guinea pig, if they want to come to Portugal on holidays. Still, that`s that.





Just thought Diesel owners should know.


DF

 

Yeah, at least they just told it as it is

Couldn't they just send you the untested software? You'd have to buy the hardware and I guess the (tested) enhanced jag support but you could test the rest for them I'd have thought. Call yourself a Beta Tester