Hello fellow S-Type owners and experts!
I have just purchased my first 'modern' Jaguar, having in the past owned some XJs(series 1, 2 and 3) and a Mark 10.
This S-Type 3.0 litre is in superb condition although I have bought it as a project due to a mysterious electrical fault. The car was having a problem of cutting out on hot days and not running again until it had cooled down, this progressed to it not running at all.
The car belonged to a mechanic who has already put a lot of time and parts into trying to fix it but to no avail.
Does anyone here have any experience of cars powered by the Duratec V6 having similar problems?
Any suggestions of directions to go with this problem, possibly related to an overheating electrical component?

 

It's very rare (I think never posted before).

Doesn't sound to be electrical overheating.

Possibly related to the heat and fuel. A dribbly injector might do that. Or a temperature sensor that's lying (so the PCM gets the air/fuel mix way wrong).

 

A car that belonged to a mechanic? Those are the absolute worst! (I am a mechanic, albeit in aviation, at least for now. )

Do you know any of the history of work accomplished? I’m especially interested in what changed so the car went from cutting out when hot to not running at all.

For any parts previously changed, keep in mind something may have been bad right out of the box. What if you insist all such parts are good because they are new? I shall hop the next flight to your fair city and slap you around. On second thought, what with present travel restrictions, I may need to ask a big favor and see if you can slap yourself around.

On the bright side, now that the car won’t start, your troubleshooting got easier. A hard fault is much easier to diagnose than something intermittent.

 

I've seen some mechanic's cars that are run into the ground but this was a person who's cars were all spotless and perfectly maintained, from the hotrod to the resto on the rotisserie. The Jaguar was spotless apart from this electrical issue.

This is the list I was given of what has been tried ;

Crank angle sensor has been replaced.
Fuel pump has been replaced.
Battery charge rate and condition tested ok.
Earth points checked : battery to body in boot, behind passenger front kick panel, driver's side engine bay fuse panel.
Fuel filter replaced.
Fuel pressure sensor replaced.
Roll over/inertia switch ohm tested ok.
Fuel pump relay replaced and tested for power in and out.
Signal from rear control module tested ok.
Rear control module(RHS boot) sent for testing and passed.
Front control module(LHS kick panel) sent for testing and passed.

Personally I have barely begun to look at it, just starting today.

Plugged in OBD2 scan tool but it won't read any DTCs
Scan tool will read live data and fuel pressure meets requirements.
Checked all battery connections in boot, all ok.
Checked all fuses in boot, all okay including megafuse.
Putting the battery on charge for a while before I proceed.

 

I've just started to look at it now. I haven't found other S-Types with this issue yet but looking in other forums and finding similar problems in Ford Taurus and Mercury Sable related to 1)injector short, 2)crankshaft sensor and 3)inlet manifold control valve.
Looks like a lot of testing to do and perhaps time for a new multimeter!

 

I put the battery back in and it started straight away, ran for about ten seconds, then stalled and went back to not starting.
Whilst the battery was out;
I had both Intake Manifold Control Valves out and cleaned them.
I wiggled the wires of the crankshaft sensor.
Other than those two things I didn't touch anything under the bonnet.
In the boot I simply removed all fuses, checked and refitted.
Battery spent the afternoon on the charger.
I'm now inclined to think that there is a break somewhere in the crankshaft sensor wiring.

 

Big question here:

Are you saying your scan tool can't access any fault codes that may be present? Or do you mean the scanner is working properly but no codes are stored? Big difference, so I want to make sure.

Please keep in mind if no codes are present, this doesn't mean all is good. The OBD II system is designed primarily for monitoring and reporting faults related to emissions. If you have a fault preventing the engine from starting, in the OBD II mindset, that's not related to emissions. Even if the computer knows why the engine won't start (a required input is missing or invalid, for example), it won't tell you via the OBD II interface. It's kinda like getting in the wrong line at the DMV office. Even though the lady behind the counter can access the entire computer system from any terminal, you wanted a new driver's license but are in the line for renewing vehicle registration.


More details, please. Is this the value as seen on your scan tool? Or was this recorded with a mechanical gauge at the test port on the injector rail? You're going to want the latter, to be sure the computer is seeing a correct value.

 

The CKP sensor circuit is a good place to look. For troubleshooting, I would suggest connecting a mechanical pressure gauge on the test port on the injector rail. (Don't rely on the value shown on the scanner until proven accurate.) Please see posts #14 - #16 in this thread for details of how the pump operation responds to the CKP signal:

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...5/#post2172165


To paraphrase:

The Crankshaft Position Sensor (CKP) tells the PCM the crankshaft is rotating. If the CKP fails, the PCM will turn off the fuel pump. When you first turn the key to the Run position, the pump will operate briefly to prime the injector rail (no CKP rotation signal yet). If the starter engages and there is no signal from the CKP to indicate the crankshaft is turning, the PCM shuts off the fuel pump.


Also, can you please clarify exactly what you mean when you say the car won't start? Do you mean the starter engages normally but the engine won't run on its own? On this attempt, you said the engine ran for about 10 seconds and then died. On previous attempts, was there any response such as sputtering or coughing? Or was it just the starter cranking away and nothing else? Or did the starter not even respond?

One more thing. Please check the indicator light for the security system. This is the small red light on the top of the dash, at the base of the windshield. Here's how the light is supposed to behave if all is good and no faults are present:

First, lock the car with the key fob. Press the lock button a second time to set the alarm system. The horn should chirp once. Watch the little red light. It should flash once every few seconds to show the system is armed. Now press the key fob unlock button twice to unlock all the doors. The red light should go out. Hop in the driver's seat and turn the key to RUN (Not start yet). The red light should come on solid ONCE for about 3 seconds and then go out. If it flashes anything after that, you've got a stored fault and the security system may have inhibited the fuel pump and/or starter.

 

Thank you for your input. The car cranks normally but doesn't fire at all, not so much as a cough, although when it did start yesterday, it fired at the first revolution and ran smoothly. I will have a look at arming and disarming the security but the main light is coming on for a few seconds, then going off as I would expect. It was one of the first things I looked at.

 

My scan tool was saying "unable to establish a link", however it did read the live data and that was where I got the fuel pressure reading from. I have ordered a different scan tool for future use so hopefully I can find out whether there are any DTCs stored in a few days time. My focus for today is going to be trying to track the crankshaft sensor wiring and look for damage, then bypass the section to eliminate that possibility. I think the next most likely alternative would be that the replacement crankshaft sensor that was fitted turns out to be defective.

 

Please raise your right hand and repeat after me:

"I, (insert name*) do solemnly swear to follow up and post the eventual outcome, even if it takes months and I lose interest after determining the forum members are nothing but knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers who couldn't troubleshoot their way out of a wet paper bag.**"

I present this oath because you won't believe how many new members we've had who never bother to come back and update with what they found. It's very frustrating, when we're all just trying to help. [/soapbox mode off]

At some point, I think you're going to have to shift gears and run some very basic diagnostics. It's good to know what was previously done, but don't get too far down the rabbit hole. The CKP sensor (or associated wiring) seems like a good possibility as the root cause, so it's worth a gamble. However, you presently don't even know if you've got a fuel or ignition problem. Super basic, but has anybody even checked compression? Is the problem even electrical in nature? Maybe it's something as simple as a loose hose connection at the fuel pump, who knows. I would suggest keeping the parts changing to an absolute minimum until you can confirm the exact nature of the problem.

To test for fuel versus ignition, definitely check fuel pressure with a mechanical gauge. If good, try a quick (3 seconds max) burst of starting fluid in the intake. If the engine responds positively, you at least have ignition, and therefore no fuel from the injectors. Don't keep trying more and more starting fluid, as that can blow up stuff. But a quick burst is safe, and will tell you how to proceed.

* Actually say your real name, not just "insert name".
** Except Karl. He seems really sharp and I bet he smells nice, too. I'm lucky to be in the presence of such all-around greatness.

 

Do you mean to say that when you have the key on and the engine off and you plug in your scanner you get no connection to codes that might be stored? Please remember that many codes might be pending and only create a CEL/hard code when you had 2 drive cycles with the same error.

You might want to be looking at the ECU/PCM.

I had an auto broker that had bought a 2009 XF (only had 55k on it) but exhibited the same symptoms you are discussing. I suggested getting a used PCM/ECU that match from one of the online Jag dealers.

He did and I have the SDD software and paired it to the car along with clearing the immobilizer that seemed to have taken hold and everything went fine and the car went away in one of his sales. I would have bought it, but it had the dash problem of the fabric/leather buckling and so $3000 extra to fix did not make sense.

That may not be an issue with your vehicle, but you seem to be getting many of the same symptoms.

Tom in Dallas/Plano
05 S-Type 117k

 

If it can do live data but not DTCs, getting a different scan tool is indeed the thing to do. The tools are about 0.01% as reliable as the PCM.

 

When the car won't start or when it dies do you have any pressure at the fuel rail?
I would do live monitoring like you have been doing.

Need to find out first if it's fuel or electrical that's causing it to die or not start. Right now since it cranks but does not start I would spray starting fluid in the intake to see if it tries to run.

And yes plus post back we get so many zombie threads?
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Sorry for not getting back on here but I have a large number of projects so this one has been on hold for a couple of months.
I did get a new scan tool but the only relevant code I can find is B2172 Inertia switch open circuit. This seems unlikely to be the real issue since I can hear the fuel pump running and have pressure at the rail.
I was thinking of swapping over the ECU but I read that all modules link together so I'm not sure quite how many need to be swapped as a set, nor their locations. I do however have a donor car to work from if it comes to that.
Blue car has body damage but runs, black car is complete and running so it can supply body parts for the X202 and mechanical/electrical parts for the other X200.
If any Jaguar experts in Victoria want to trade skills for parts feel free to let me know!

X202 2.5 - X200 3.0 - X200 3.0

 

The ECU is most likely NOT the problem and they need to be programmed to the car which opens up a whole list of problems and issues. Lets forget that idea for now?
Did you spray starting fluid into the air intake while cranking the engine?
Lets start with some simple things and get an idea of where the problem is.

Be sure and clear all the codes so we can be sure what shows back up is a fresh and current code.
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+1 on that!

Also, resist the urge to try swapping the ECU with another car. Can't remember all the details, and this may not apply to all years, but the ECU has to be programmed to a specific VIN. Once programmed, I think this VIN data cannot be changed. The instrument cluster is the brains of the security system, and if it sees the wrong VIN saved in The ECU, the engine is locked from starting. The upshot is you can install a new blank ECU (with proper programming) but can't swap in a used one.

In addition to the starting fluid test, please check the fuel pressure with a mechanical gauge. This is very easy to do on an early V6. It sounds like some very basic troubleshooting still needs to be done. We still don't know if you've got an ignition or fuel problem.

 

He may or may not need an ECU, but if you have the SDD you can pair the ECU with your vin, and then the SDD automatically finishes out the security features plus dealing with the immobilizer. However on the age of his car the SDD will revert to the IDS and I assume it also allows, but maybe not as easy, the paring of the new ECU.

On another note about his B2172 I saw a discussion that the fuel pressure could be too high. Not sure how that would happen and the results, but just passing on what I read.

Tom

 

Bear in mind an original type car (1998-2001) PCM cannot be reprogrammed by the OE tools and can instead go into the kind of lockout requiring a blank (i.e. new) one - horribly expensive.

 

Just for my info: Are you saying the IDS will not allow for pairing the car with another ECU be is used or new? If it were the ECU he might be better off sending it off for repair. But who knows what his current problem really is at this point!?

Thanks

Tom