S Type LSD? Lincoln LS Install
#321
04-11-2013, 03:24 AM
Junior Member
The $240 Is for a bench install for the Quaife unit into the in the STR pig (already off of the car). If your in Michigan and want drive your STR to DTS drop it off, and want to pick it up all done up with the new unit... there are additional Labor cost, contact eric......
Last edited by project1320; 04-11-2013 at 03:26 AM.
#322
04-12-2013, 02:15 AM
So I thought I should give a little update, some feedback on how the Quaife goes under extreme conditions.
Last weekend we went to the Nürburgring
and there were in fact two X350 XJR's fitted with Quaife LSD's cutting laps in sometimes slippery conditions (wet track, very cold, a little rain).
I cut a hot lap late in the afternoon, being pushed along by some brits in a Porsche 997 behind me, who'd done many laps at the 'Ring before. With them pushing me on I was going a lot harder than I'd originally planned. The guys in the Porsche were impressed at the straight-line speed (they could barely keep up in the straights) and despite me being cautious under braking & in the corners, they said it was still reasonably quick through the corners for a big four-door saloon.
Because I love my car, I did the laps with the DSC on. There were a couple of small interventions for rear axle traction, but on the whole the diff just did it's job of getting the power down.
I rode as passenger in the other XJR, and he pushed it hard. There were a couple of loose moments, but the car (& i mean, the LSD, in conjunction with the DSC) sorted itself out well. Just keep your foot in it, let the diff & the tech do its job.
However, there was one incident, which Avos kind of predicted...
I wasn't in the car at the time, but this is how it was explained to me;
"...on a very wet straight section, under full throttle, the car got a fishtail going, & steering correction didn't do much to pull it in. So he backed off the throttle a little bit and it came back in to line. Was pretty nerve-wracking...."
Or something like that. It didn't happen to me. BUT the track was quite damp, and it was very cold. I think under dry conditions you won't experience that sort of thing. I haven't so far, & not from lack of trying.
There is no way, NO WAY we would have been able to drive that quick around the Nürburgring in those conditions with the crappy stock open diff. The Quaife made it possible.
Now, there was one other X350 on the track that day. A 2.7L diesel, with comfort suspension, open diff, but running winter tyres. The diesels are pretty torquey, it was difficult to get the power down in places, even with the winter tyres. The open diff meant the inside wheel would break loose quite easily. The DSC was intervening on the XJ6D a lot more than in the XJR's.
So, my summary of the Quaife unit fitted to the XJR's.
1. There is no other off-the-shelf solution for our cars.
2. It's a million times better than the stock open diff on the street.
3. You can hang the back of the car out if you want to.
4. Straight line launches are much much better, even in damp conditions
5. It's been proven to work on the worlds greatest racetrack in two different cars.
Last weekend we went to the Nürburgring
and there were in fact two X350 XJR's fitted with Quaife LSD's cutting laps in sometimes slippery conditions (wet track, very cold, a little rain).I cut a hot lap late in the afternoon, being pushed along by some brits in a Porsche 997 behind me, who'd done many laps at the 'Ring before. With them pushing me on I was going a lot harder than I'd originally planned. The guys in the Porsche were impressed at the straight-line speed (they could barely keep up in the straights) and despite me being cautious under braking & in the corners, they said it was still reasonably quick through the corners for a big four-door saloon.
Because I love my car, I did the laps with the DSC on. There were a couple of small interventions for rear axle traction, but on the whole the diff just did it's job of getting the power down.
I rode as passenger in the other XJR, and he pushed it hard. There were a couple of loose moments, but the car (& i mean, the LSD, in conjunction with the DSC) sorted itself out well. Just keep your foot in it, let the diff & the tech do its job.
However, there was one incident, which Avos kind of predicted...
One of the advantages here is that you get a 100% lock (with the right clutch system, like the OS Giken), meaning you will go in a straight line. ATBs seem to have the tendancy to fishtail. Also any rear end brake out is much more predictable and easier to control with a clutch type than with an ATB one.
Here is a comment from OS Giken:
"In essence, the Spec-S will feel like an open differential that doesn’t allow for unwanted wheel spin when exiting corners or “tail wagging” during heavy straight line accelerating (as the unit will provide progressive locking at equal rates to both wheels due to the centered design of our unit). For drag users, this will translate to greater straight line acceleration and keep the rear where it is supposed to be"
Here is a comment from OS Giken:
"In essence, the Spec-S will feel like an open differential that doesn’t allow for unwanted wheel spin when exiting corners or “tail wagging” during heavy straight line accelerating (as the unit will provide progressive locking at equal rates to both wheels due to the centered design of our unit). For drag users, this will translate to greater straight line acceleration and keep the rear where it is supposed to be"
"...on a very wet straight section, under full throttle, the car got a fishtail going, & steering correction didn't do much to pull it in. So he backed off the throttle a little bit and it came back in to line. Was pretty nerve-wracking...."
Or something like that. It didn't happen to me. BUT the track was quite damp, and it was very cold. I think under dry conditions you won't experience that sort of thing. I haven't so far, & not from lack of trying.
There is no way, NO WAY we would have been able to drive that quick around the Nürburgring in those conditions with the crappy stock open diff. The Quaife made it possible.
Now, there was one other X350 on the track that day. A 2.7L diesel, with comfort suspension, open diff, but running winter tyres. The diesels are pretty torquey, it was difficult to get the power down in places, even with the winter tyres. The open diff meant the inside wheel would break loose quite easily. The DSC was intervening on the XJ6D a lot more than in the XJR's.
So, my summary of the Quaife unit fitted to the XJR's.
1. There is no other off-the-shelf solution for our cars.
2. It's a million times better than the stock open diff on the street.
3. You can hang the back of the car out if you want to.
4. Straight line launches are much much better, even in damp conditions
5. It's been proven to work on the worlds greatest racetrack in two different cars.
Last edited by Cambo; 04-12-2013 at 02:18 AM.
The following 4 users liked this post by Cambo:
#323
04-12-2013, 03:02 AM
Junior Member
Thats good to hear. In downtown Detroit there is belle isle park where the Grand Prix is held, early in the morning (sport mode on dsc off in J gate manual) i can take my car and power thru all the sweeping left hand turns with the dsc off it drifts around them with momentum throwing the rear end out smoking the tires it acclerates out but the right hand turn suck as only the passenger rear spins, the rear doesnt break loose it struggles to move the car aggressively out of the corner when this happens (loosing ground), With the Quaife i could only imagine being able to keep up momentum slide around some corners, lightly brake and power out of others equaling better elasped times.....Every now and then the rear end gets thrown out when right hand turns are made with momentum but it doesnt happen all the time and is very unpredictable this is not a good feeling guessing what gonna happen this time. thanks for the feedback on the LSD. As we all know this is what s needed even for drag racing!
#324
04-12-2013, 01:56 PM
#325
05-03-2013, 04:11 AM
Seems that everyone has lost interest in LSD's???
Anyhow, just wanted to give another update on how the car is going with the Quaife fitted.
I think, that the TC/DSC is adaptive i.e. it's learnt and adapted to having the LSD fitted. The DSC is becoming less and less intrusive as the miles tick by.
I'm still seeing the DSC light blink, but it's not noticeably cutting power, and i can't feel the brakes being activated.
Last week I was turning left into a side street in the wet, had to give it some beans to get through a break in traffic. In the old days the inside wheel would have spun, followed by a power cut, and i'd be struggling to get out of the way of oncoming traffic. Now it just moves. You can hear the inside wheel slipping a little, and the DSC light blinks, but no power cut, no braking, just powers on.
A few days ago in the dry, I did a 1/2 to 3/4 throttle take off turning right onto a main road, straightened up & then full throttle. You could hear the tyres squealing (intermittently) and again the DSC blinked, but it didn't intervene. It was just awesome.
And then this morning (a little damp) had a kickdown to 1st at around 25mph in a straight line, the whole back end lost traction, DSC blinking, but no power cut or braking. It just powered on.
When I think about the weekend at the Nürburgring with both Quaife-equipped XJR's, the first lap out had the TC/DSC kicking in all the time (the DSC on Davey's XJR pretty much chucked a fit on the first lap). But after each lap it seemed to get less & less intrusive. The last lap I did it only activated the ABS when needed.
I'm conviced that the DSC has adapted to the LSD, the car is just getting better & better to drive as time passes....
Anyhow, just wanted to give another update on how the car is going with the Quaife fitted.
I think, that the TC/DSC is adaptive i.e. it's learnt and adapted to having the LSD fitted. The DSC is becoming less and less intrusive as the miles tick by.
I'm still seeing the DSC light blink, but it's not noticeably cutting power, and i can't feel the brakes being activated.
Last week I was turning left into a side street in the wet, had to give it some beans to get through a break in traffic. In the old days the inside wheel would have spun, followed by a power cut, and i'd be struggling to get out of the way of oncoming traffic. Now it just moves. You can hear the inside wheel slipping a little, and the DSC light blinks, but no power cut, no braking, just powers on.
A few days ago in the dry, I did a 1/2 to 3/4 throttle take off turning right onto a main road, straightened up & then full throttle. You could hear the tyres squealing (intermittently) and again the DSC blinked, but it didn't intervene. It was just awesome.
And then this morning (a little damp) had a kickdown to 1st at around 25mph in a straight line, the whole back end lost traction, DSC blinking, but no power cut or braking. It just powered on.
When I think about the weekend at the Nürburgring with both Quaife-equipped XJR's, the first lap out had the TC/DSC kicking in all the time (the DSC on Davey's XJR pretty much chucked a fit on the first lap). But after each lap it seemed to get less & less intrusive. The last lap I did it only activated the ABS when needed.
I'm conviced that the DSC has adapted to the LSD, the car is just getting better & better to drive as time passes....
Last edited by Cambo; 05-03-2013 at 09:13 AM. Reason: Typo
#326
05-03-2013, 05:11 AM
heh, some interest was lost when we all realized only a $1,600+ quaife unit was the only option... my diff is making noise so it's going to need a rebuild in the next year or so, maybe I'll pull the trigger on the quaife...
good to hear your experience and what sounds like DSC adaptations, really sweet man! night and day difference in how the car drives it seem, especially something with the XJR's powerband...
good to hear your experience and what sounds like DSC adaptations, really sweet man! night and day difference in how the car drives it seem, especially something with the XJR's powerband...
#327
05-03-2013, 06:12 AM
Veteran Member
Yeah too many long trips way back when ... 
I'd like to believe what you're describing is for real. Don't misunderstand me I know you think this is what's going on but as a discerning skeptic I like to validate a bit. I say this because what you're describing is exactly what I'm looking for as a change to improve one of my cars glaring faults. In general I'm not enamored of adaptive learning systems on this car because it seems to get lethargic over time due to my normally mundane driving tasks. I also am frequently surprise with what IT decides to do visa-vi shifting.
But in this case your description sounds like the ideal function of such a system. It's exactly what I want to hear. That means I better do some checking.
So how can we validate that the DSC actually is capable of doing what seem to be observing?
Any thoughts guys?
I have a friend who's a drivetrain engineer at McLaren (street cars) so maybe he could point us towards someone who would know about this specific system? I can ask anyway.
I'd like to believe what you're describing is for real. Don't misunderstand me I know you think this is what's going on but as a discerning skeptic I like to validate a bit. I say this because what you're describing is exactly what I'm looking for as a change to improve one of my cars glaring faults. In general I'm not enamored of adaptive learning systems on this car because it seems to get lethargic over time due to my normally mundane driving tasks. I also am frequently surprise with what IT decides to do visa-vi shifting.
But in this case your description sounds like the ideal function of such a system. It's exactly what I want to hear. That means I better do some checking.
So how can we validate that the DSC actually is capable of doing what seem to be observing?
Any thoughts guys?
I have a friend who's a drivetrain engineer at McLaren (street cars) so maybe he could point us towards someone who would know about this specific system? I can ask anyway.
Seems that everyone has lost interest in LSD's???
Anyhow, just wanted to give another update on how the car is going with the Quaife fitted.
I think, that the TC/DSC is adaptive i.e. it's learnt and adapted to having the LSD fitted. The DSC is becoming less and less intrusive as the miles tick by.
I'm still seeing the DSC light blink, but it's not noticeably cutting power, and i can't feel the brakes being activated.
Last week I was turning left into a side street in the wet, had to give it some beans to get through a break in traffic. In the old days the inside wheel would have spun, followed by a power cut, and i'd be struggling to get out of the way of oncoming traffic. Now it just moves. You can hear the inside wheel slipping a little, and the DSC light blinks, but no power cut, no braking, just powers on.
A few days ago in the dry, I did a 1/2 to 3/4 throttle take off turning right onto a main road, straightened up & then full throttle. You could hear the tyres squealing (intermittently) and again the DSC blinked, but it didn't intervene. It was just awesome.
And then this morning (a little damp) had a kickdown to 1st at around 25mph in a straight line, the whole back end lost traction, DSC blinking, but no power cut or braking. It just powered on.
When I think about the weekend at the Nürburgring with both Quaife-equipped XJR's, the first lap out had the TC/DSC kicking in all the time (the DSC on Davey's XJR pretty much chucked a fit on the first lap). But after each lap it seemed to get less & less intrusive. The last lap I did I only activated the ABS when needed.
I'm conviced that the DSC has adapted to the LSD, the car is just getting better & better to drive as time passes....
Anyhow, just wanted to give another update on how the car is going with the Quaife fitted.
I think, that the TC/DSC is adaptive i.e. it's learnt and adapted to having the LSD fitted. The DSC is becoming less and less intrusive as the miles tick by.
I'm still seeing the DSC light blink, but it's not noticeably cutting power, and i can't feel the brakes being activated.
Last week I was turning left into a side street in the wet, had to give it some beans to get through a break in traffic. In the old days the inside wheel would have spun, followed by a power cut, and i'd be struggling to get out of the way of oncoming traffic. Now it just moves. You can hear the inside wheel slipping a little, and the DSC light blinks, but no power cut, no braking, just powers on.
A few days ago in the dry, I did a 1/2 to 3/4 throttle take off turning right onto a main road, straightened up & then full throttle. You could hear the tyres squealing (intermittently) and again the DSC blinked, but it didn't intervene. It was just awesome.
And then this morning (a little damp) had a kickdown to 1st at around 25mph in a straight line, the whole back end lost traction, DSC blinking, but no power cut or braking. It just powered on.
When I think about the weekend at the Nürburgring with both Quaife-equipped XJR's, the first lap out had the TC/DSC kicking in all the time (the DSC on Davey's XJR pretty much chucked a fit on the first lap). But after each lap it seemed to get less & less intrusive. The last lap I did I only activated the ABS when needed.
I'm conviced that the DSC has adapted to the LSD, the car is just getting better & better to drive as time passes....
#328
05-03-2013, 07:57 AM
Veteran Member
Only guessing here, but... I think the (Teves) ABS/DSC is fairly self-contained but probably broadcasts its observations about wheel speeds on the CAN bus (a small microcomputer could record and tell us). Then I think the real logic is in the PCM. Chances are it is seeing fewer wheel speed sensor readings that look worrying (because the LSD is working) so doesn't bother cutting power.
Well, seems plausible but may or may not be correct.
Well, seems plausible but may or may not be correct.
#329
05-03-2013, 09:22 AM
Veteran Member
Well that's all I had expected and was wondering how well that approach was going to work. That of course is not adaptive learning just reaction and from what Cambo351 is describing maybe it's plenty good enough anyway?
But he is pretty emphatic about the cars getting better after many laps. Could also be that the drivers were doing all the adaptive learning instead?
Hearing from someone who KNOWS how the system actually works would be most helpful. I sent off an email so we'll see if I get anything back.
Is there another forum spot where we should be posting this question?
But he is pretty emphatic about the cars getting better after many laps. Could also be that the drivers were doing all the adaptive learning instead?
Hearing from someone who KNOWS how the system actually works would be most helpful. I sent off an email so we'll see if I get anything back.
Is there another forum spot where we should be posting this question?
Only guessing here, but... I think the (Teves) ABS/DSC is fairly self-contained but probably broadcasts its observations about wheel speeds on the CAN bus (a small microcomputer could record and tell us). Then I think the real logic is in the PCM. Chances are it is seeing fewer wheel speed sensor readings that look worrying (because the LSD is working) so doesn't bother cutting power.
Well, seems plausible but may or may not be correct.
Well, seems plausible but may or may not be correct.
#330
05-03-2013, 09:24 AM
Yeah adaptations can be a double-edged sword.
The ECM adaptations for example, they enable us to make so many physical changes to the engine (exhaust, cats, pulley, intake elbow, filter, all the way up to a twin-screw at ~20PSI) while retaining the stock ECU. That's great!
The TCM adaptations are disappointing, especially compared to the Aussie Ford's that are also running the 6HP26 (i've driven a few in recent years). I think it's just the Jag software that's the letdown. Ford has written some great software for thier ZF-equipped cars, plus the SCT tuning options available, the Ford guys in Oz rave about how fantastic the ZF's are. It's all down to the software. I think the "lethargy" comes from the TCM adaptations, not the ECM...
I had a look through the tech manuals & other documents I have regarding the DSC in our cars, it's never mentioned anywhere about it being adaptive. But at the same time it's never mentioned anywhere about the ECU adaptations either.
The transmission adaptations are mentioned a lot. Kind of ironic that those are the ones that don't work all that well...
I drove an FG Falcon XR6 hire car 2 years ago, with the 6HP26. The transmission was awesome. I just wish the transmission in my car was as good...
The ECM adaptations for example, they enable us to make so many physical changes to the engine (exhaust, cats, pulley, intake elbow, filter, all the way up to a twin-screw at ~20PSI) while retaining the stock ECU. That's great!
The TCM adaptations are disappointing, especially compared to the Aussie Ford's that are also running the 6HP26 (i've driven a few in recent years). I think it's just the Jag software that's the letdown. Ford has written some great software for thier ZF-equipped cars, plus the SCT tuning options available, the Ford guys in Oz rave about how fantastic the ZF's are. It's all down to the software. I think the "lethargy" comes from the TCM adaptations, not the ECM...
I had a look through the tech manuals & other documents I have regarding the DSC in our cars, it's never mentioned anywhere about it being adaptive. But at the same time it's never mentioned anywhere about the ECU adaptations either.
The transmission adaptations are mentioned a lot. Kind of ironic that those are the ones that don't work all that well...
I drove an FG Falcon XR6 hire car 2 years ago, with the 6HP26. The transmission was awesome. I just wish the transmission in my car was as good...
#331
05-03-2013, 09:30 AM
Veteran Member
#333
05-03-2013, 09:54 AM
Well that's all I had expected and was wondering how well that approach was going to work. That of course is not adaptive learning just reaction and from what Cambo351 is describing maybe it's plenty good enough anyway?
But he is pretty emphatic about the cars getting better after many laps. Could also be that the drivers were doing all the adaptive learning instead?
But he is pretty emphatic about the cars getting better after many laps. Could also be that the drivers were doing all the adaptive learning instead?
The examples from the street driving actually stand out more as an example of something good happening, if it's adaptations, or something else.
Why not just leave it here. It's very related to the topic.
TBH no, it's very driveable & you never get the feeling like it's gonna bite you or something. I'm talking about under normal, spirited, driving conditions. Apart from a couple of test drifts with the DSC off, i've been driving with it on, even the laps at the Nürburgring as mentioned. I can only say positive things about it...
#334
05-03-2013, 10:42 AM
Veteran Member
It would be fun to try the Falcon's ZF 6HP26 in our cars. It has the paddle shifts, too, as I recall.
I got hold of some tech data and there doesn't seem to be much that's different in the 6HP26 variants other than the paddle shifts and I expect the software.
I expect you could just swap the mechatronic module and the wiring.
I got hold of some tech data and there doesn't seem to be much that's different in the 6HP26 variants other than the paddle shifts and I expect the software.
I expect you could just swap the mechatronic module and the wiring.
#335
05-03-2013, 11:17 AM
I will be looking into it once the XJR get's down to Sydney. If we can load the Ford software into the ZF, and somehow trick the car using a black box (a la NormanD's manual conversion) and then keep the "Ford TCM" happy with another black box (eg Powertrain Control Solutions PCM2500) it might just be possible...theoretically...maybe...won't be cheap though...
#336
05-03-2013, 11:40 AM
Veteran Member
Check the wires at ZF connections. I think you'd need the Falcon wiring.
If you swap the TCM then it'll already have the Ford software in it.
Of course it may not work. TCM/PCM may dislike the CAN packets.
hmm, what about the diff ratio etc? What does the Falcon use? The shifts etc are going to be those of the Falcon.
I can't get my brain round the trans input shaft speed implications.
I used to read a few AU & Ford forums and there was member Lukeyson and others who'd looked at some of the packets etc so there used to be interest in this kind of stuff (probably still is).
If you swap the TCM then it'll already have the Ford software in it.
Of course it may not work. TCM/PCM may dislike the CAN packets.
hmm, what about the diff ratio etc? What does the Falcon use? The shifts etc are going to be those of the Falcon.
I can't get my brain round the trans input shaft speed implications.
I used to read a few AU & Ford forums and there was member Lukeyson and others who'd looked at some of the packets etc so there used to be interest in this kind of stuff (probably still is).
Last edited by JagV8; 05-03-2013 at 11:44 AM.
#337
05-03-2013, 12:17 PM
The gearbox will have to be in a sense, independent of the car, and vice-versa.
Diff ratio doesn't matter, the SCT tuning boxes can do any ratio you want (I have a set of 3.58:1 gears ready to go in)
The PCS box will just give give inputs to the Ford TCM, all the tuning is done in the Ford TCM via the SCT device.
The trick will be to fake the Jag TCM output so the car runs, just like a manual conversion.
At least that's the plan...
Diff ratio doesn't matter, the SCT tuning boxes can do any ratio you want (I have a set of 3.58:1 gears ready to go in)
The PCS box will just give give inputs to the Ford TCM, all the tuning is done in the Ford TCM via the SCT device.
The trick will be to fake the Jag TCM output so the car runs, just like a manual conversion.
At least that's the plan...
#338
05-04-2013, 06:39 AM
Veteran Member
Reads like the Quaife is a big success!
Some day in the distant future, perhaps I will be making observations on the Mark VIII differential with a Torsen T2-R that is mounted in the suspension sub-frame I am rebuilding. I have shifted my focus to the rear suspension. Lots of things I am making changes to, but nothing is far enough along to make a report on.
Some day in the distant future, perhaps I will be making observations on the Mark VIII differential with a Torsen T2-R that is mounted in the suspension sub-frame I am rebuilding. I have shifted my focus to the rear suspension. Lots of things I am making changes to, but nothing is far enough along to make a report on.
#339
05-05-2013, 01:09 PM
Veteran Member
#340
05-05-2013, 01:32 PM
Veteran Member