S Type R folks

I am in the middle of a prodigious undertaking. We are high end restoring a 56 XK140 Fixed Head Coupe and we have decided to put the R drivetrain and electronics from an 07 S Type-R in this beauty and make it into a 400HP, 6 speed beast.

My questions are:
*What connections and inputs need to be satisfied on the ECM in order to get this drivetrain to run well and drive?
*What essentail components from the S Type will have to follow the S Type drivetrain and ECM into the classic?

We appreciate the input and look forward to responding to all and posting progress.

THX for all feedback.
D Armour
Crazy Jag nut.

 

The Car's control system is CAN based. This means you will most likely need all of the car's control modules integrated in the swap to keep from throwing all sorts of error codes. No one has cracked Ford's controls system in order to be able to turn off these remote modules. The ECM needs the body control module because the fuel pump module, instrument panel and others that route through the BCM. No small task. You basially would need to wire the mojority of the car like a STR.

If you are serious about using one of these engines, then you would be better off looking for an aftermarket ECM system that you can program to run the engine.

 

You'd also need the TCM (trans. module) which is inside the ZF 6HP26. I expect the TCM will want the rest of the 6HP26.

You probably needs the ABS, too. Plus RECM. Pretty sure you'd need the ICM (inst. pk).

So... not the way to go.

Or roll your own PCM and do without all the above. Not easy. I expect it won't pass emissions if it needs to.

 

It will be tough and I hope you post your progress on the list.

If you have not read about Tijoe's project please do. He has a lot of experience swapping S Type stuff around!

I would listen to him.
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Guys
I really appreciate the feedback. I asked the question since I expected the mods had changed since I last owned an R (4.0 2001 XKR). So it was exactly what I was looking for.
I know its a tough build, but it will be cool when we do it and besides, old engineers like a challenge.


Tijoe, I considered the 3rd party ECM, but I am in fact moving the S Type R's drivetrain including tranny, plus all dash controls over in the build and the S Type controls are already set up to optimally run the car. As such, I had already decided to move the ECM, BCM, TCM and other major control systems over to the XK.


JagV8, I appreciate the info as well and will also move the 6HP26 with the TCM. Per your advice, I will also bring over the ABS, RECM, and ICM.


Of course I have to go to learn mode on these modules and will do so. My partner and I are old EE types (80 years combined exp.), so we are familiar with PLCs, Can Bus and OBD language. Still, I anticipate challenges throughout this process (e.g. ABS interface on non-S setup), but we will tackle them as they come up and will no doubt have other questions for you guys.
also, Fortunately, the local Jag dealer is a good friend, and they have some good techs in the S Type electrical area as well.
We will get this beat built and I will follow this reply up with our concept build plan, (which is changing daily as we speak).

 

This Jaguar XK 140 is built by Randy Johnson and Dave Armour and is the first car conceived by RAD Custom Motors.

Both Randy and Dave are old engineers (80 years combined experience) who happen to share a passion for the classic design and style lines in a variety of automobiles built between 1937 and 1975.

Conversely, as engineers, both Randy and Dave understand the impact of new auto engineering and technology and believe these engineering improvements far exceed the legacy engineering and technological capabilities inherent in the beloved classic autos.

Our approach to this is to restore and modify high end restored, engineering enhanced classic autos. Essentially, we pay tribute to the original, restoring the car to a high level artistically, while updating the engineering and technology of the vehicle in an elegant manner, such that it is suited to the legacy styling.

The XK140-R is the first subject. It was selected because of it’s beauty and heritage. The “R” designates this XK140 as having the modern 4.2 litre supercharged V8 and matching 6 speed transmission.

Other enhanced features include onboard engine control, disk braking with antilock, DVD and video screen, and a myriad of other new technologies.

To achieve this, we began by acquiring a subject 1956 XK140 FHC and a donor 2007 Jaguar S-Type R for Drivetrain, braking systems and electronic systems and controls. Both cars arrived to our build site at Ron Dailey’s garage, where the story of this build really begins.


XK140R Restomod Build Master Plan

• Legacy XK Assessment
  
  1. Determine What is Missing, What Can Be Refurbished and What Needs to Be Replaced
  2. Source and Order Obvious Missing and Condition Replacement Parts (e.g. Dash, L Rear Bumper, Windshield Divider, Cracked and Imperfect Glass, Rubber, Felt, Grille, Badges and Emblems, etc.)
• Target Vehicle Preliminary Design and Review/Adjust
  
  1. Engine and Drivetrain Plan
  2. Suspension and Brake Plan
  3. Controls and Dash Plan
  4. Electrical Plan
  5. System Elements Placement Plan
  6. Paint Plan
  7. Interior Plan
  8. Revise Work Sequence Plan
  9. Team Review and Kickoff
• XK Teardown (Organize and Label all Elements)
  
  1. Windows, Brightwork, Electricals, Engine Compartment Elements Removal
  2. Door, Hood and Trunk Removal
  3. Dash Element and Steering Column Removal
  4. Brace Body
  5. Body Removal from Frame
  6. Gas Tank, Rear-end, Exhaust, Lines, Wheel and Front Suspension Removal
     
     1. Gas Tank Test and Verification
     2. Potential Clean OR Source and Order Gas Tank
• Media Blast
  
  1. Frame/Chassis and Rear-end
  2. Body
• Donor Teardown (Organize and Label all Elements)
  
  1. Engine and Tranny Removal
  2. Front Suspension Removal
  3. 4 Wheel and Brake System Removal
  4. Exhaust Removal
  5. Steering Assembly and System Removal
  6. Dash Gauges, Control Systems and Harness Removal
     
     1. New XK Dash Layout Plan and Map
     2. New XK Electrical System Plan and Schematic
     3. New XK Engine Compartment Plan and Map
     4. Source and Order New Dash and Control Elements
     5. Potential Source and Order Electrical System Elements
• New Drivetrain Fit-up
  
  1. Engine and Tranny Mount and Support
  2. Measure and Verify Drive Linkage and Shaft Fit
     
     1. Source and Order New Driveshaft and Linkage Elements
  3. Measure and Verify Exhaust System Fit
     
     1. Potential Source and Order New Exhaust Elements
• Steering and Linkage Fit-up
  
  1. Measure and Verify XK Steering Linkage to Donor Steering Systems and Column
     
     1. Potential Source and Order New Linkage/Steering Elements
  2. Measure and Verify XK Steering Wheel to Donor Column
     
     1. Decision: Use Donor Steering Wheel or Potential Source and Order New Vintage Look Elements
• New Front Suspension Fit-up
• Wheel and Brake Fit-up, Front and Back
• Chassis/Frame Changes for New Drivetrain and Front Suspension
• Body/Firewall Fit-up
• Body/Firewall Changes for New Drivetrain, Wheels, Brakes
• Fabricate and Insert New Transmission Cowl
• Verify Trunk and Latch Elements; Repair/Replace as Required
  
  1. Potential Source and Order Elements
• Body Repair, Changes and Prime
  
  1. Make Changes to Accommodate Donor Elements
  2. Insert Vents into Hood for Supercharger Cooling (Decision: Cut/Form Vents or Insert R style Vent Panel into XK Hood)
• Rear-end Verification; Potential Teardown and Rebuild
  
  1. Potential Source and Order Differential Elements
• Rear Suspension Verification and Potential Modification
  
  1. Potential Source and Order Springs and Mounts to Fit
• Frame, Chassis and Rear-end Powdercoat
• Frame and Chassis Assembly to Rolling Chassis
  
  1. Reinstall Rear-end
  2. Install Suspension, Brakes and Wheels
  3. Install Drivetrain
  4. Install Exhaust System
  5. Reinstall Gas Tank and Other Chassis Elements
  6. Install New Gas, Brake and Other Chassis Lines
• Final Body Fit-up and Verification
  
  1. Adjust Elements as Required
  2. Finish Floor, Seat Pans, Tranny Cowl, Trunk Floor
• Paint and Body
  
  1. Prep, Adjust Fit on Body, Doors, Trunk, Fender Skirts and Hood
  2. Block and Final Verify Fit
  3. Remove Doors, Trunk, Fender Skirts and Hood
  4. Final Prime, Sand and Paint Body, Doors, Trunk, Fender Skirts and Hood
  5. Sound and Heat Proof Cabin
• Systems Installation and Test
  
  1. Verify Dash and Instrumentation Fit
  2. Install and Test Electrical:
     
     1. Wiring Harness
     2. Engine Compartment Electrical Components
     3. Trunk Electrical Components
     4. Charging System
     5. Instrumentation and Control Elements
     6. Lighting System Elements
     7. Insert Electric Window Motors and Controls from Donor
     8. Test Audio/Media Wiring
     9. Verify Electrical System Operation
  3. Prep, Fluid and Fire the Engine
  4. Verify Transmission Operation
• Phase 1 Assembly
  
  1. Replace Body Rubber (Cabin, Trunk, Engine Compartment) and Window Felt
  2. RE-install Doors, Trunk and Hood.
  3. Measure and Verify Doors, Trunk and Hood Fit
  4. Measure and Verify Fit and Test Side Windows Operation
• Interior Install – Car to Interior Installer with Seat Pans; Final Decisions for Interior Pattern, Placement and Color
  
  1. Ceiling and Pillar Leather
  2. Seat Foam and Leather Install
  3. Door Panel and Sill Install
  4. Dash Button and Finish
  5. Interior Wood Trim Install
  6. Carpeting Install
  7. Cabin Leather Install
  8. Seat Install
• Car Finishing
  
  1. Window Glass Final (Back and Windshield Install)
  2. Sound/Media System Install
  3. Lights Install
  4. Brightwork and Trim Install
  5. New Wheel and Tire Install
  6. Fender Skirt Install
  7. Install Audio and Media Systems
  8. Final Polish and Detail
  9. Test Drive
     
     DONE!
     
     MISSING STEPS, ISSUES, QUESTIONS
     

• The rear end options are:
  • Rebuild the XK140 rear end and differential

ISSUES/QUESTIONS

• Is interior installation in the right sequence? (meet with interior guys to review/revise plan)

 

Wow, should be sooo amazing. Hope it goes well.

I hope you have the workshop manual JTIS (free download from this site) as it includes lots of info, some of which will be handy.

 

An impressive list.

Please keep us updated with pics if you can.

 

the HA4 axel that is in the mk2 will take a 2.88 diff from a xj v12 and it is lsd,
2.88 I think is what is in your STR ,
I am doing the same as you but in a mk2 with a 4.2 v8, na from an stype,.

 

Close enough I expect (it's 2.87:1)

Start another thread and tell us how it goes! (Sorry if you already have.)

 

I am taking apart the 140 differentail now and I anticipate a 3.01 ratio in the legacy XK140, 1956. I will check the bottom bolt on diff, which has the fractional equivalent of the gear ratio (when divided top no. to bottom). If the bolt is unintelligible, you can take te diff. cover off and get the true no. from the gear itself, by rotating it until it shows up adjacent to a gear tooth. Fascinating stuff, this restomod discovery and plenty of clues out there on line, some from the most unexpected places.
The S Type R is 3.31 factory, I believe. My plan is to use the legacy gearing and adjust for correct speed by changing wheel/tire size.
I should know tomorrow for sure. In reality, I wish I could just move the XK over to the S type chassis, but 12.5 inches difference in track width is a bit much to overcome, lol.
Admittedly, I consider myself a fair neophyte in this at this point, but my knowledge will grow through this process. Clearly, I am crazy to overspend for this build, but I have a vision of a unique and awesome one of a kind auto and am determined to have this cool car complete, and so will move forward, even if it ends up at a loss. Again, thanks much for the feedback.
Daimler, good luck on the MarkII. (I appreciare that you are crazy also). There was a guy and his wife that drove through Albuquerque on a cross country Jaguar trek of perhaps 30 cars a few years back that had a 2001 XKR 4.0 setup in a MarkII. Met hime at the MelloyJaguar dealership there. I have tried to research his build plans recently, as it would greatly help us both, but I can find no sign of his recording the process on line so far. If I find it, I will forward to you.
This is fun. lol, but Fun is costing me money, ROFL. Crazy.

 

I wonder which would be harder?

1. Getting the engine and new ECU to also work with that ZF automatic or

2. making or fooling the existing control units think their still in an S-Type?
How many are there that have to all work together?

Or ...

Get a nice aluminum USA V8 crate motor, a 6 speed manual, a self tuning ECU and probably never have to deal with all the S-Type issues you can read about on here.

 

That won't work. The required ratio is determined by the number of revolutions
of the axle. Changing wheels and tires affects on road speed, but not the number
of revolutions.

Since you are EE types, what will work is a digital converter to adjust the pulse
train from the abs sensors. ABS will still work because all wheels are converted,
not stopped.

The X308 series which features a supercharged version has a gear ratio of
3.08

 

I don't think the str diff is 33.1 as you say,
should be the 2.87, for all 4.2.

 

I don't know what the budget is, but I believe Randy wants the restomod to be updated with a Jaguar engine and components. Yes, for a pre-OBD car, it would be easier to put in a GM E-rod package, but then the heart of the car wouldn't be Jaguar

If I was going to do this restomod, I'd go for broke and put in a newer 5.0 Jaguar engine. If you have to figure out how to make CAN work for the car, I'd do it with the new engine.

Regarding CAN, Randy needs to get a copy of the 2007 STR electrical guide and look at the control system section. It shows all the electrical interconnects between the modules. He will have to figure out what modules he can do without and trick the control system into thinking the missing modules are there. I believe that he will find that the EEC is very integrated to the transmission contol module, BCM, Instrument cluster, Fuel control module, ABS, TCS systems and even the door locks/security system. The engine and transmission wont run properly without all the active feedback/signals from these peripheral modules. Lots and lots of work. As far as I know, nobody has cracked this version of Ford's EEC to turn off dependent sub modules.

I believe it would be be easier to figure out a way to use a manual transmission, and purchase a programmable aftermarket engine controller. Probably far less work and time overall.

 

I would like to no if you can get the car to run and drive with out the ABS,

 

That is an interesting question and I may not have a straight forward answer.
1. Depends on what generation engine control system you have.
- If your car has ABS with some sort of traction control and a "throttle by wire" throttle body, the quick answer is NO.
2. If your car has a throttle body with an old fashioned cable, then the answer is YES.
3 For all cars where ABS/Traction control is integrated into the CAN system, the engine control module looks for status messages from the ABS/TCS module to let it know that all is functioning properly. Then when the system activates, messages are sent to the ECM to tell it to close the throttle body to help stop the wheels from spinning. If your S-type has the button that lets you deactivate DSC, this will turn off this portion of the ABS Control system.
If you remove the ABS module, the ECM (EEC) and BCM will still be looking for the status messages and you will throw numerous error codes. The car will probably still run, but it may go into a limp mode because it thinks you don't have functioning brakes. If you can figure out how to send the ECM (EEC) and BCM fake messages, then the engine controler will be happy.

I know from experience with Late model GM CAN, that the car wont start if all the modules in the high speed CAN bus aren't working properly or present. This is why GM made their aftermarket E-rod series controller and engine harness.

 

All S-Types are throttle by wire (aka drive by wire) i.e. computer-controlled.

What kind of driving do you want to attempt without ABS? I think you'd need it because i think you'll get at best limp home mode without it - but try it

 

I think you may be looking at stand a lone ECU and a manual gearbox.