That was just testing it before trying to turn it over again. Any surface charge should be gone from the five times I tried to turn it over without any luck.

 

Ouch. See post 39.

 

Wait, are posts numbered?

What if someone new makes a post and it becomes #40?

Now you're just messing with the new guy.

I assume this is what you are referencing?
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...-fault-225200/

Maybe not, it's very hard to follow up with an abstract comment like "see post 39" but I will read every damn post if I have too.

Wait, my apologies, I do see the post numbers but thought those were comments and the posts where threads... or whatever. Forgive the newb. It is dead and tomorrow I'll get it charged and start troubleshooting. The thread I posted suggests the batter as well so all is not lost and there are a few good links attached within.

 

Karl I admire your patience and goodwill with this one. I am new to forum but a seasoned master tech just sitting back reading this thread by accident . And just like a bad wreck I couldnt look away. lol I wish him the best on getting his car up and running and bless you and all the good techs staying the course on this thread. Good to know you're all out there should I need a tip of my own.

 

Welcome RONN.

You're very right and the Jaguar community here is a good reason to take the risk in owning one of these later model cars.

If I can be very frank with you, I'm not sure I can appreciate your vanity. At the end of the day it's still my car and my repair bill.

That said, I don't like being compared to a bad wreck by a "master tech" who hasn't given any constructive input on my post.

My intent is not to get into it with you but there's a reason I didn't take it to a professional shop and really, really don't like being talked down to and don't do it in my job when you come to me so don't think you should do it back.

 

I have the time and the money to fix my car as long as it doesn't get upside down and warrant the scrap yard.

In related work, I have over 5 years of professional experience developing complex mobile applications. I'm self taught as a developer and have spent years doing thankless jobs without pay to debug a system or solve a problem. I'm one of the few people who has made it as an independent developer. Furthermore, I have a formal education in a related field based on developing critical thinking skills, but not computer science per se. That skillset directly relates to anything technical and I have over 15 years of experience with cars and computers...

From this point forward, let's assume I'm not stupid.

I'm just trying to solve problems away from the computer for once and enjoy my new car. I was somewhat against driving and haven't driven in 5 years as I built a life of sustainability around travel. But I own new cars and old and always enjoyed working on them and building friendships along the way. I did my part for the environment and don't commute anymore and so bought this beast.

This Jaguar will be no different from my other car experiences and getting involved with the performance or maintenance and as far as this forum, I feel I have value to add . I'm not just some kid looking for a handout or being ungrateful when I demand some mutual respect.

My main moto is to add value first. I spent most of 2017 and beyond in the blockchain space and had ranked contributions, coined a new term, admin to a top group (500K+) and had an investment track record in the top 5% (surely). I'm taking this month off and trying to juggle working on my Jaguar with personal time and enjoying a drink or two with friends.

Light a cigar and relax. I've got nothing but time to figure this out.

 

 

i did not use term train wreck. . I did use the term wreck . It was my intention to be complimentary to the master techs trying to help you, not to be insulting towards you in any way. My comment only eludes to the difficulty in assisting someone with a diagnosis through this type of format. I am sympathetic to to frustrations in making complex diagnosis and I believe I said I wish you the best in getting your car up and running. I still wish you the best. My use of the word wreck and not being able to look away was a poor attempt to add humor to what must be a frustrating situation . In no way was I trying to be insulting or condescending towards you or your intelligence. If I came across that way then you have my sincere apologies. It is never my intent to be mean spirited or arrogant. I chose not to chime in regarding my technical opinions because I can tell you are in very good hands with the people already trying to assist you and I really had nothing superlative to say.
I do see someone added " train wreck" to the comments. That was not me. Again though I think the term applies to the frustrations of trying to assist someone in a constructive way without actually being under the hood of your car with you. Not at you personally. And although I am a master tech of 36 years I am certainly capable of being educated and assisted by other good techs who may have more experience in any given circumstances without any harm to my ego.
In closing I say once again I wish you the best and hope you get up and running to enjoy your Jag. And I apologize if my comment sounded unkind. I did not mean any insult to you personally. Good Luck, best wishes. Ronn

 

I'm following this thread simply for the entertainment value..Karl this really did make me laugh.

Carry on..

 

Ronn,

I'm glad we had the chance to clear the air and I'm sorry if I wasted our time any more than we should have. I just wanted to be sure this didn't turn into a discussion about how important everyone's advice is while ignoring the symptoms of the vehicle. I am frustrated with the whole idea of paying $150 for the auto repair shop to tell me what I know (solenoid, P0081) from a free scan. I have no problem paying someone $30-80 an hour or more if they bring that kind of value. I hire engineers and programmers for projects all the time and do the same for my car and gave my neighbor $75 (emailed a gift card) for his help when really we were just hanging out.

I don't want to go to a repair shop and get their list of problems with the car, I just wanted them to replace my part because $150 would have covered the cost of the part ($40) and ($110) labor and I can deal with needing more repairs of that doesn't turn off my error code. It blows my mind they wouldn't consider it. Now my car is in even worse shape while this could have been avoided in the first place.

I already have a strong bias against mechanics grouping to prove their point and we've all dealt with the guys who will sell you stuff you don't really need or get defensive when people try to do anything on their own. I know I shouldn't start off by getting trigged but expressing myself better is something I'm working on personally and so try to bare with me.

I can still use the community and feedback and will maybe make a few bullet points that include information from the wiring diagram (relays), security system codes (flashing light), battery charge and whatever the process may be to probe the harness, starter or whatever testing needs to happen next.

Feel free to chime in and I can take a joke if you think you can dish them out better than Karl.

 

[QUOTE=DrJagerCola;2167593]Ronn,

I'm glad we had the chance to clear the air and I'm sorry if I wasted our time any more than we should have. I just wanted to be sure this didn't turn into a discussion about how important everyone's advice is while ignoring the symptoms of the vehicle. I am frustrated with the whole idea of paying $150 for the auto repair shop to tell me what I know (solenoid, P0081) from a free scan. I have no problem paying someone $30-80 an hour or more if they bring that kind of value. I hire engineers and programmers for projects all the time and do the same for my car and gave my neighbor $75 (emailed a gift card) for his help when really we were just hanging out.

I don't want to go to a repair shop and get their list of problems with the car, I just wanted them to replace my part because $150 would have covered the cost of the part ($40) and ($110) labor and I can deal with needing more repairs of that doesn't turn off my error code. It blows my mind they wouldn't consider it. Now my car is in even worse shape while this could have been avoided in the first place.

I already have a strong bias against mechanics grouping to prove their point and we've all dealt with the guys who will sell you stuff you don't really need or get defensive when people try to do anything on their own. I know I shouldn't start off by getting trigged but expressing myself better is something I'm working on personally and so try to bare with me.

I can still use the community and feedback and will maybe make a few bullet points that include information from the wiring diagram (relays), security system codes (flashing light), battery charge and whatever the process may be to probe the harness, starter or whatever testing needs to happen next.

Feel free to chime in and I can take a joke if you think you can dish them out better than Karl.


if you use a British scanner I think the codes will come up all sixes and sevens.

 

AllllRighty then.

Lets get back on point with fixing the issues with your car.. As Karl and JagV8 have pointed out, Battery voltage is very critical to these vehicle's. 12.6 minimum is indeed a very high standard for almost any battery but that's what our systems like to see.

We need to start with any codes you can pull from the car once you get the voltages correct. I understand this was a recent purchase. If you would like to PM me your entire VIN I can check any Carfax or recent service history with the vehicle.

When you started this thread you mentioned that the VVT was unplugged? That seems a bit odd to me and surely the check engine light would have been on simply for that alone. If there is a timing issue the previous owner was trying to hide..then the problem could be mechanical along with electrical.

If you want to invest in a decent scanner and post the "P" codes and "B" codes here..it will be a great help in getting this STR back on the road.

JMHO

 

DrJagerCola:

No automotive repair shop, or dealer, is going to swap parts based upon the car owner's diagnosis; nor, typically, will they replace parts provided by the owner.

On the diagnosis issue, the owner is always right, until he wrong; then it becomes "you should have known better, you are the professional after all". On the issue of parts, the shop owner has no recourse to the vendor if the owner's part proves defective and also electrical/electronic parts are often sold on a "no returns" basis; what the shop does end up with is a car that does not operate properly and an upset customer, despite whatever may have been agreed to up front.

I am not saying that you wanted to provide your own parts, but I am just laying out the general scheme of things from the shop's perspective.

 

Okay, so the battery charged over night and it shows a sticker for late 2017 and is genuine Jaguar out of Germany. I charged it until the reader was around 13.4 and stuck it in the car. It has the same issue, no crank/ no start.

Using the wiring diagram I found that relay 4 (under the hood) would be the EMS and fuse 3 was ignition or something to that regard. These match the wiring diagram coming from the battery...

First: I unplugged relay 4 and tried to start the car. Same codes as before.

Next: I took a plug from the top which was R 21 and should be windshield header according to the fuse box diagram. I put it in R4 and still the same codes.

Next: I did the same for relay 3 and still no help.

Now there's a slight chance R21 was already faulty and I should go back out and swap a bunch of them to see but we're pretty confident at this point.

I'm starting to gaze over the wiring diagram and can't help but notice the solenoid is getting juice from the battery and the ECM connects directly to control the switch and so sending into the output from the ECM would damage it pretty good.

Here is how the VVT solenoid works:
https://workshop-manuals.com/jaguar/...ons/page_2341/


I read that the solenoid only controls the ground as well and looking at the wiring chart there's a rectangle box with a slanted line that I assume is a one way switch and we sent juice the wrong way through. That's my original premise anyway. I should have kept the old one to try to send electricity through it in reverse to see if that had any impact on the ECM feed.

Next, I will start probing around with the multimeter under the hood and check the wiring to the solenoid. Maybe I will get some indication of a wiring issue after moving the harness.
The previous owner damaged the cap to the solenoid and so it was not plugged in. After ordering a new one and receiving the wrong replacement part, and needing to get to an interview, I tool their rigged system and attempted to plug it in and simply didn't do it right. I should have just waited.

I'm almost out of options other than trying to get it out of park and towing it for a scan or buying an expensive unit. If I take out the ECM to look inside it will lose any suggestive codes and I assume there's a code more specific to the computer and this could still be a battery issue. There was a slightly high drain just trying these step and so I will go check it again while away from the vehicle to see if it's holding juice okay and do it a few times today.

The check engine light as for the solenoid and it was driving fine with a P0082 code.

EDIT: Also, I tried a few times and have door locking issues so it flops around and then I need to reach over and lock the passenger door then get out and shut my drivers door. So, immediately after testing the battery it was 12.9 from the charger and then after a few tried it went all the way to 12.4. Is this Jag battery really junk after a year or should I try to charge again? It's just a little odd it worked so well with no early warnings before going caput all of a sudden when I tried to hook up the solenoid and reversed the wires.

 

It shouldn't drop to 12.4 so quickly, which n effect means the original 12.9 included the surface charge and 12.4 is truer.

But with 12.4 it should crank so something is stopping it (which could be that as you try to crank the 12.4 nose dives - easy to check with the meter).

 

My experience is that around 12.1 volts bad things begin to happen.. MILs appearing and spurious error codes being thrown.

Your Jaguar branded battery is most likely a Varta and some forum members say that these are not what they used to be,,,

 

So given this diagram on http://www.jagrepair.com/images/Auto...cal-2006on.pdf using 3.5 and 83E to 1.7, can anyone tell me how the charge would flow from the battery to the relays or ECM and what lies between?
As far as the parking (brake/ABS fault/DSC disabled) similar error situation happened with a bad alternator on another thread and ABS and parking brake are likely the first line of defense and have strong communication with the computer therefore needing a response. But there doesn't appear to be any module there (like ABS) and the diagram shows a negative line capable of carrying a current that directly hits the computer, if it is allowed to flow through the solenoid in reverse. I'm not sure what the slanted line means in the diagram but I assume electricity was suppose to come in and stop and the ground and monitoring from the computer would alter the timing and now it had sent a charge through to the ground side with nothing to stop it. not a single fuse and only the solenoid itself?

The other line of thought was that in a no crank and no start situation, there would be no current sent and that some other lockout is to blame but I need to assume we can't send a current to the ECM board like that without doing the damage.

Any reason why I couldn't retain a few new error codes taking out the PCM and having a look then replacing it? There doesn't seem to be much else left to do and half of this puzzle is represented as a very short line to the computer.

You say if there's a no start situation that it can't be the PCM. Can you explain how the car will turn over without it a little better so I too understand what systems are at play next?

I may need to keep educating myself on how to read the diagram and how to probe and test different things on fig. 2.2, Battery; Starter; Generator: V8 diagram. Maybe check R20 and see if I get lucky with the starter relay and see if it's possible to switch or bypass something for testing and/or starting.

 

[QUOTE=DrJagerCola;2168533]So given this diagram on http://www.jagrepair.com/images/Auto...cal-2006on.pdf using 3.5 and 83E to 1.7, can anyone tell me how the charge would flow from the battery to the relays or ECM and what lies between?

I think I would look at figure 2.2 once I knew the battery were not at fault. Check power and grounds. Usually I start at the source and follow the schematic to check each circuit. I guess you could check for signal power also if you have someone to turn the key.

I really hope we get this worked out. I know it's frustrating.

 

Okay, time to get dirty. I've got a few very simple questions before we dig in, and would appreciate if you can answer them one by one. You may wonder why I'm asking certain things, but part of it is trying to get a feel for your workshop situation, etc.

1) Where are you working? Is the car inside or close to a garage or other private location, with 110V power readily available? Or are you working in an inconvenient location, such as an apartment parking lot in a bad neighborhood with no 110V power nearby?

2) What kind of battery charger do you have? (Specifically: amperage output)

3) Do you have another person readily available to help, such as turning the key while you watch the voltmeter? Or are you mostly on your own?

4) What kind of multimeter do you have? Brand and model number, please. Just trying to get a feel for its capabilities, such as recording min/max values, what resolution it has, etc.

5) Have you had the battery load tested yet at an auto parts store? The voltage previously recorded while unloaded only tells a SMALL part of the story. The real nitty gritty is what happens when the battery is asked to work.

6) Ginger or MaryAnn? If that was before your time: Rachel or Monica or Phoebe?


So please answer those nosy questions, then try the following and report back.

7) Connect your voltmeter to the battery terminals. Record the voltage at rest. Turn on the headlights and record the voltage again under this medium sized load.

8) Regardless of the voltage reading, do the headlights come on?

9) Voltmeter still on the battery terminals, have a helper turn the key to start. Record this voltage under load, even if nothing happens.

10) At the front power distribution box, place your finger on R20, the starter relay. Have a helper turn the key to start. Do you feel this relay click?

11) At the base of the shifter, is P or N illuminated?

Please take the time to answer these questions one by one. Even if you aren't sure why I'm asking particular ones (okay, you can skip #6), the answers will help decide the next steps in troubleshooting.

Remember, this may be a very slow process, so please be patient. If you have 110V power available close to the car, please connect the charger and keep the battery topped up between troubleshooting sessions.

 

6) Mary Ann

Oop's

Carry on..