Pretty damning descriptions. Sorry to be so harsh but that's not engineering. That's outright thievery. I do understand packaging considerations that cause complex assemblies but if it really is done for the motives you describe it doesn't help much for a brand that already suffers from a bad reputation for such things.

 

That would be great!

 

Ok ... since heat is a problem in that spot ... how about a smaller glob of hgh temp epoxy. The goal would simply be to avoid contact with a sharp edge.

Or ... push the hose over to find out where it would make contact with the tab ... wrap that spot on the hose with a layer of doublesided tape ... then put a hose clamp over that spot. The tape is just to make sure that the clamp does not slide out of place, and the clamp does the actual protection work. If you put the screw or ears, depending on the type of clamp, facing the tab you'll wear out the tab before touching the hose.

Or .... same as above, but use the left over band sticking out of the clamp as a standoff by orienting it towards the head. Maybe even one on each side of the spot instead of a single clamp.

Too much is just enough

 

What about cutting the tab off? it's true what they say about skinning cats.

 

Yeah, when it's 11:45 at night and you've been working for 16 hours AND need to get your car out of a borrowed stall by the next day to allow real shop work to get done, you think on your feet and use the tools at hand. No hard epoxy cartridges, no rtv in the last tube, no double-sided tape, just duct tape.

Buy hey, morning armchair hindsight is always 20/20, isn't it?

 

Actually, some engineers would argue that it is a very important part of engineering. And it's true of every manufacturer, not just this one. Have you ever done work on a BMW 7-series? Or any post 2001 BMW for that matter? Their steady stream of service customers is a dealer manager's dream.

Also note, these smaller failures usually occur AFTER the warranty has expired, so their effect on the "reputation" of the brand is considered minimal at headquarters. Statistically speaking, most luxury owners/lessee’s have traded in the vehicle for a newer model by then. Only the much smaller "DIY enthusiast" set, like us, get upset about them. We represent less than 20% of their customers.

Understanding the expected life-cycle of a component or subassembly is one of the first boundary conditions considered during design. And every part that meets it's intended lifecycle must also live within the pre-determined cost structure of the program in order for the program to be deemed "profitable". Finally, the failure mode expected after warranty is rated, and that can bear some weight in the DFMEA and DVP&R. If it is in anyway considered life-threatening, or if can stop the vehicle in its tracks and leave the driver stranded, then a more robust design is pursued.

Remember, the bean counters in charge have "incentivized" cost reduction/longevity at every OEM, even in the engineering bonus structure.

Who knows, a steel tube may very well have been part of the original design! Then a Cost Reduction Engineer may have reviewed the cooling circuit and found several "opportunities", eventually knocking $XX.XX dollars/car from the total system cost. And receiving a handsome bonus in the process. "Ata-boy, Johnson."

A weeping low pressure return hose after 50k miles would rate a 3 or 4 on a scale of 10. Definitely irritating, but certainly not detrimental to overall engine function. The luxury car owners--80% of whom have no mechanical inclination, much less an understanding of engine cooling systems--would simply report a "smell of coolant" and a "minor leak" found on the driveway to the service rep. The dealer may offer a nice loaner while they repair leak, presenting the golden opportunity to ask, "Have you considered trading in your car, sir? The new 2012 models are just smashing, aren't they?" And they are!

So, 3-5 days later, the owner retrieves his car good as new for another 50k miles, but now with the smell memory of the new leather that he fondled inside the 2012 XF loaner firmly planted in is brain. Not a terrible experience really. Well, until he reads the $$$$.$$ bill. "But this is a luxury car. Everything is expensive on these things, you know." And so he pays it and moves on.***

Same with the failed piezo. Again, it's irritating, but it doesn't stop you from going to work or parking your car, does it?

***The other thing to keep in mind is that this particular S-Type R model is a relatively low-volume production car. I'm not justifying their position, but that's a genuine factor in the high price to repair these cars. Jaguar as a whole has represented as little as 0.3% of the U.S. car market annually. Economies of scale alone dictate that the dealers need to compensate for their investment by means other than car sales alone, and service revenue is a major contributor in that compensation. Especially when you only sell, say, 100 cars/year at a good location. (As opposed to say, a large Ford or Toyota dealer, which may sell several hundred or over a thousand cars annually.) It's either that or go belly up.

My question is, does the new supercharged 5.0L AJV-8 use the same cooling hose?

It's lunchtime, I had some time to blather on. Cheers.

 

Well if I buy your line of evil corporate engineering then at a minimum they used the old one or cooked up something worse so as to improve their dealer's service incomes.

I'm afraid that Jag still has a tarnished reputation in this country and it's because of crap like this. They ignore that at their own peril IMHO. I'm fully aware that Audi, BMW and Mercedes have they're own issues and not the perfect products they pretend to be. The more complex everything becomes the harder it gets.

Yourself having spent considerable time at this repair I wonder the following:

1. Is there any way to reduce this via partial dis-assembly and then just pulling the hose out from underneath?

2. Could a hose be connect at both ends but routed differently, maybe even over the top or to the side of the engine bay with a much longer hose?

 

Interesting discussion, but if you want to carry on with it I think we need to move it off to it's own thread.

 

I suspect it's a problem never foreseen by jag.

Good questions, guys, anyone have any answers please?

 

Eh I don't think it is only Jag. The BMW 540i I had was notorious for going through radiators every 2-3 years due to the plastic endtanks. Or leaking from the valley pan gasket. Or having an alternator fail at 100k miles The list goes on.

 

I hear you, it's just that this hose thing is such a P*** OFF.

You meant the portion about automotive manufacturing ethics?

Oxymoron that ...

 

I did indeed mean the ethics discussion, your welcome to kick the hose discussion around as much as you please!

 

Looking at the pictures ... it *seems* that it might be possible.

It may entail removing the pieces with the actual nipples at the front and rear ends of the hose run for access. One is the thermostat housing and the other is the throttle body. Both are routinely removed by owners. Especially the thermostat housing

So ... it *might* be possible. YMMV.

 

I'm doing this job right now and all I can say is !@#$#$%%$%$&*((* EGR valve.
Kudos to twotrees for doing this job. I'm an indy Jag tech and this is a real bitch.

 

If you can add any info once you're done please do.

How many miles on the vehicle and what model year is it?

 

Even things you tried that didn't work or pics of any really tough things or the like may help future fellow sufferers!

 

We are not sufferers...no wait...I guess we are...never mind. LOL!

 

I put this job off as I knew it would be difficult from reading this and other threads.

I began the project 7 days ago and it has taken 20+ hours just to remove everything. I also removed the recently replaced water pump again since it had a small leak from using an aftermarket gasket last year. Word to the wise --- use Jaguar gaskets!!!

New parts and gaskets were purchased from Manhattan Jaguar in Bethesda, MD. The parts guys were nice but did not seem to know a lot about this major repair. I had them go back and talk to the techs a couple times to make sure I purchased all the items need.

Last night, I milled down the SC snout to install a 2.6" pulley (2.5-3 lb.) which took 5+ hours to do.

I am now heading out to the garage to begin putting it all back together.

FYI, the coolant hose that runs at the bottom of all these parts seems to be as good as new. This is only a guess but it would have likely lasted a very long time and may not have ever blown.?.?.?


2005 Jag STR with 67,500 miles:


Engine bay with parts removed


Round file and calipers to determine proper depth for new pulley clearance


Mark depth and once black mark is gone stop removing material
1) Belt Sander = Done in four positions (noon, 3, 6, 9 o'clock)
2) Hand File = Done in four positions (1:30, 4:30, 7:30, 10:30 o'clock)
3) Sand Paper = Dummy Pulley from WhiteXKR


Ready for 2.6" pulley installation


I will post my own thread with details as I have time.

This is the most difficult and time consuming project I have done on any vehicle and I still need to put it all back together.

 

+1 Break it out into another thread.

I do find it interesting that a 2003 with those miles has no issues with the hose.

1320Racer

I for one would really like to see closeup photos of the entire hose and everything else.

Maybe some better lighting and higher resolution on the photos?

Those look like they we taken with a phone?

Another future fellow sufferer no doubt ...

 

Staatsof and 03Xtype, IMHO it didn't really warrant a new thread, and was adding nothing here, so I've deleted all the squabbling posts.