So I was at my favorite local redneck wrecking & tire joint today. <-- I'll post up a story or 2 about this place in the virtual bar area (off subject) tonight.

Anyhow I asked the owner Fast Eddie if they do any wrenching, specifically on Jaguar transmissions, he replied "bring it on son". I mentioned that we need the sleeve replaced and briefed him on procedure, and especially the liquid gold. He mentioned they have a tranny evaculator system that will pump out AND filter our liquid gold to be reused upon buttoning up, not loosing 1 drop.

My question anyone heard of this machine and if so would you attempt this?

 

Not without a boatload of additional information about the process and the equipment....

If this is just another tranny flush, you really don't want to be doing that. If you dredge up long-settled debris through the transmission's valve bodies, you could be gumming up the natural fluid flow and creating very expensive problems that you didn't have before....

Also, I would be very hesitant about pumping my original fluid back into my transmission, even after it's supposedly been filtered and purified. What other fluid residues are swimming around in Fast Eddie's magic tranny fluid machine from the last ten vehicles he's hooked that thing up to? Dexron III? Mercon? Type T-IV? ATF+3? Ripple? I don't think I want even minute amounts of all that stuff being pumped into my pan....

I still think that the old-fashioned drain-and-fill service is the safest way to go with these very expensive ZF transmissions. Find the best deal on new ZF Fluid that you can, assume you'll get 6 or 7 litres to drain out of your pan, and proceed with caution. Everything about transmission service has potential risks. Ours even more so because we don't have dipsticks (and therefore a foolproof way to add the new fluid). So be careful out there....

 

I'd also want to know how the device works but potentially I'd filter and reuse the oil - IF it had been in for less than (say) 60K miles, especially if it had been in for say half that. A tranny's a nice environment so the oil does last quite well. However, the tranny already filters the oil and its that filter I'd want to replace - or clean if it can be properly and reliaby cleaned. The more it's been used the more likely I'd want to replace it.

Drain and fill would be my preferred way, with a new filter (and clean the magnet that collects debris, if there is one). Even if the fluid in the TC wasn't changed.

 

I have used shops that flush the trans for years and have not had any issues at all. Granted it must be done with the replacement of fluid and filter. I have heard of "recycle" services and would not do that. I won't be having a fluid flush done on my S either. The reason is the true and proper way to do it wastes new fluid. The basic theory is that new fluid is pumped in while the old is pumped out. New fluid inadvertently ends up being pumped out for a while to ensure that all the old fluid is gone. At the cost of the ZF fluid I wouldn't even guess at what a good flush would cost. I have not had an automatic trans issue since the early 90's. That wasn't even an issue with a car I was driving. I bought a Cougar with a bad trans and 150k on it. Put in a bone yard trans (and had that flushed) and that car was sold in running condition with 230k on it years later. My practice has been every 40k to 50k the trans is flushed and the filter replaced.

 

Yes, flushing wastes new fluid, and the ZF Fluid is far too costly to waste even a couple of ounces. But it is also inherently riskier. Ask any transmission engineer. Drain-and-fill is the way to go with these S-Types. Of course, we should all have transmission dipsticks which also serve as fill tubes. But we don't....

 

Jon we have to face the facts, no dipstick sucks and having to spend well over $500.00 to replace a frickin' $12.00 rubber sleeve sucks even more! I as most of you know don't skimp on replacing anything but in this case I cannot bring myself to spend that kind of money for a vehicle that gets less mileage on it than my mountain bike. Joyces Jag will see less than 2,000 miles a year in our ownership, and trust me those are pampered miles. I am willing to drop the $130 or so for the tranny/filter pan but the fluid is just killing me. Believe me, I am with you on sticking with the Jag fluid. This is one procedure that I don't mind doing but for K-rist sake theres 54k on the damn car.

 

Rick, you are right on the money - having to replace that sleeve with less than 60,000 miles on the car is indeed a terrible blow. When fluid is as costly as this stuff is, it is a crime for the factory to skimp on lousy O-rings, seals, plastic sleeves, etc. But attempting to filter and re-use your existing fluid could wind up being far more costly in the long run if it causes your ZF to completely crap out on you....

All I'm saying is that you should invest considerable time in researching the system that Fast Eddie is using. Once you've done the research and have much more knowledge about its pros and cons, you'll be in a much better position to assess your risk factor and then make a final decision to do it or not....

Did the question of whether or not the sleeve can be changed without dropping the pan finally get resolved? Brutal said yes, I think it was SteveTech who said no, and then there was some discussion centering around "prove it". I don't remember if a definitive conclusion was ever reached. For the benefit of all of us with these ZF units, we need to know with 100% accuracy. I still believe that the pan must be dropped in order to change the sleeve. For your sake, I hope I'm dead wrong....

Also, does anyone know if there could be other methods to stop the leak from the sleeve without having to remove it? Even if it simply postpones having to drop the pan and change the fluid for another 20,000 miles, it would certainly be worth it. The other question that needs to be answered is whether or not the replacement sleeves are new-and-improved so you only have to change it once (like the IMT O-rings)....

 

I've read, with interest, the transmission discussions. I just purchased an 03 v6 stype with 97K on it, took it to the Jag Shop in Portland, and they said it is past due for the transmission service. They quoted just at $300. I said, I'll wait (to get another quote). Went to the local AMACO trans shop and they said $229, but that they had not done many of them. I decided, to let the Jag Shop do it. Glad I did. It had the 'lurch' but intermitting. After the trans service (new fluid, filter, etc) it's gone! I was worried that it might have been the torque converter or something worse. The Jag Shop had earlier done the reprogramming in hopes it would have cured it, NOT. Any way, it drives as smooth as can be. It was money well spent. Even the AMACO guy said these jag transmissions are 'delicate'. Just wanted to put my two cents in.

 

Gary much appreciated. Do you know what exactly the Jag shop did? Did they replace the pan/filter because aftermarkets are $150 from what I have read and 6 qts of ZF fluid adds another $500 or so. For $300 I might just drive this vehicle to your Jag shop!

 

Re. using second-hand/used ATF fluid, from what I've discovered about ZF autoboxes, you'd have to have a gun to my head before I'd dream of it!
Here's the reasoning:--
Because the heating effect of the torque coverter at its impellor tips, and the circuitous route around the stator and turbine tips, very local temperatures of 600degree F. and more are often generated. The shear forces here are also tremendous, especially if the driver is in the habit of "booting" it.
The clutch packs, brake bands and the torque coverter clutches inherently suffer from stiction, "sticky-friction". This is a difference between static friction (no movement between) and dynamic friction (sliding). This is the effect whereby you can bow a violin with a NEW bow, and it won't work. Not until you use some ROSIN on the bow. Then it will work because of sticky friction.
Now here's the point, 'aye, and here's the rub!'
All sorts of additives HAVE to be included with ATF fluid. The fluid itself is nothing special.
An anti-foaming agent and an oil viscosity stabilizer for the continual 'tearing' action of the torque converter on the ATF fluid, the viscosity loss being due to simple heat produced from work done.
A friction-modifying additive(s) to get the right balance between static and dynamic friction so the clutches and brake bands work as they should without bangs, jerks or slurrs.
This is all very nice until the effects of the additives start to wear off. And the additives DO wear out. Why? Simple heat again, over a long time, like 50,000mile.
The scientists have worked out that, with practical additives, and an autobox that never goes above around 180 degree F., the additives lose most of their power after around 50,000mile, or 75,000 driven sedately. If the autobox gets to 250degree F as in racing, on road or track, the ATF fluid won't last much more than around 10,000mile, if you're lucky.
The scientists also say if you use full synthetic ATF fluid in place of mineral, the autobox will run around 20degree F. cooler.
Finally, there is the economic argument (and I make no mention of the rip-off merchants over Jaguar ATF fluid). For the amount of money involved with new fluid, it makes sense not to risk the damage. Use NEW, FULL-SYNTH ATF plus a good additive if the autobox has over 50,000mile on it.
Leedsman.
p.s. Before anyone goes into that old ATF argument yet again ad nauseam, please read the manifold contributions about this. And YES, I've changed my own fluid, and YES it's working fine thank you!

 

Rick,

The Jag Shop did the required 90K service they said. Removed the pan, replaced the filter and new fluid. I don't know much more than that. It took about 4 hours cause they said the temp of the transmission fluid was critical and that they had to wait for it to get to the right temp. I wish I knew more, guess I should have asked more questions! I'm just so relieved that there wasn't anything out of the ordinary wrong, I was really concerned (although there were not warning messages or codes) with the 'lurch' but they said it was running great.

After my first visit there, they put the additive into the steering wheel unit to quiet the squealing noise that I heard in the actual column from inside the car when I turned the wheel. That really helped. There still is a bit of a 'shudder' when I turn the wheel sharp, but the mechanic said, the only way to completely remove that is new bushings and I'm not up to that. He said it was totally safe and that it was just a bit annoying, but wasn't a problem and wouldn't get worse. So I am just living with it.

 

Jon89,

The biggest issue with the leaking sleeve (at least for me) was not knowing how much fluid is in the tranny. Does yours leak all of the time or is it intermittant? If the later, you may just consider filling it back up with new fluid and checking the level again after say 1000 miles. If you don't mind checking every now and then, just adding the lost fluid might me one way to postpone the sleeve change. Mine would drop about 1/4 qt or so in the garage (only has done it once in about 2000 miles) that was observed...don't know if it does it while its on the road.

Also, the new sleeve seem to have a different o-ring then the orginal one (at least the color is different and at first glance, the o-rings seem more firm). I haven't heard of anyone needing to do it twice so I hope its improved and reliable. The old sleeve has a set in it (flat spot from the sealing surface) that has yet to recover after almost 6 months.

You can always try to clean around the sleeve and add some silcone sealant around it to see if it works.

 

Thank you Gary.

ccc, it is my tranny that seems to drip intermittenly not Jons. We hadn't moved the vehicle in 2+ weeks and when I did there was a quite a stain under the wet tranny pan. I cleaned throughly the pan and connection, took it for a drive and now seems that the leak stopped. I do know that I am low on ZF fluid and have to address this issue soon! Joyce will be driving it around town and I need to resolve this issue promptly.

I am going to go over to fast eddies and inquire more about his machine maybe even take a few photos to share here.
I have thought about "duct taping" (silcone) around the sleeve and transmission port. But again I'd rather just fix it right the first time.

 

Rick,

What's your best guess on how much ZF Fluid your S-Type has lost since you discovered that dripping O-ring sleeve several months back? If it's just a few ounces, I don't think your transmission is in jeopardy. But if it's a quart or more, then yes, you'll want to rectify this issue sooner rather than later particularly if the leak is enlarging. If driving the car seems to plug the leak even temporarily, then I would be sure to drive it every day even if for only 10 miles or so....

 

I went to Evans Tire/Wrecker Service yesterday afternoon and took a look at the "Evaculator". Basically its an electric pump that is attached to a 2/3 gallon plastic see through cylinder that sits atop a 25 gallon recovery can, not good for the purpose that (we) need. It could be cleaned and a new recovery tank could be used (maybe a new 5 gal bucket from Homie D). No filters, but could be easily filtered with some type of micro fine funnel filter. I am NOT going to go this route.

I will order the parts from a ZF distributor about 45 minutes from here. Pan/filter, sleeve and ZF fluid. I will climb under vehicle and check to see if the pan bolts are seized and need to be replaced before ordering any parts.

Eddie and his mechanic Ray invited me to use their lift and to assist if not take charge of the procedure. <---SWEET!!!!

Joyce and I both agree with Jon that there is just not enough data on the Red Line Fluid either mixed with ZF fluid or a complete drain and fill. For $120.00 more for ZF fluid it is good insurance.

Scott Jaguar here in Charlotte just quoted me $486.00 in parts and just shy of $500.00 (not a typo) for labor. Hmmm ccc mentioned in his excellent thread that he could do this procedure again in 2 hours.

Jon, I approximate 1/2 cup of lost fluid on the garage floor. I took a measuring cup and filled it with ATF fluid and poured it ontop the "stain" until it covered the mark.

 

Rick,

Based on what you've seen thus far, I think you made the right call. I would definitely take advantage of Fast Eddie's hydraulic lift offer. Keep us posted on how you decide to proceed, where you acquire the materials, and how much you have to spend....

Whenever you decide to go for it, I hope it all unfolds for you exactly as ccc says it did....

 

Definetly will do. With cccs thread this should be a cake walk especially since I don't have to do any leveling of the vehicle. The only thing that worries me a bit, is getting to the correct temperature. But I think I am very capable of doing this!

 

I don't know if this will help, I used a pretty expensive Fluke IR meter for the temperature but I have a $20 IR temp meter sold a hobby stores to monitor the head temp on RC nitro cars. I sure it would work great to monitor the oil change...you just don't get the cool laser that points to the measurement point..and your son won't run off with it down the street to practice his jedi skills just when you need it the most.

 

ccc thank you for the tip. No sons here only 3 girls to worry about!

 

Bloody good idea to use an I/R meter CCC.
Leedsman.