Crawled under my 2005 S-Type 3.0 this morning for the first time since last October to do a normal oil & filter change / tire rotation. Removed the belly pan and all looked good except for a thin coating of what I presume to be Lifeguard 6 covering the two metal transmission oil cooler lines that run underneath and in front of the compressor....

I remember reading years ago that this is a known issue caused by pinhole leaks at the areas where the lines change from metal tubes to rubber hoses. What I cannot remember is whether the issue is the rubber hose breaking down, the crimp between the rubber hose and metal tube breaking down, or something else. I used my hand to follow the metal tubes to the rubber hoses but could not detect where the weeping may be coming from because my hands are huge and I quickly ran out of room as a result....

Both metal tubes were slimy with this residue. It is a weep, not a leak, so there were no drips, puddled ATF, or anything else that would indicate that more than an ounce or so of Lifeguard 6 has escaped at this point. I used a paper towel to wipe the residue off the metal tubes, stuck my flashlight up there, and tried to get a better look. As tightly packed with components as that area is, I simply could not see much besides where the two metal tubes enter the two rubber hoses....

This looks like a monster of a repair job to me. For those of you who've done it, what components actually weep, how in the hell do you get in there to replace them, what tools are required, and how much ATF do you lose in the process of pulling those hoses to effect repairs?

This S-Type has been so good to me during the past year requiring absolutely no wrenching and still going strong with its 8-plus years old factory battery. I guess my luck just ran out....

 

Is there anything else it could be than trans oil?

If it's a small enough leak maybe just ignore it and plan a top-up in 2-3 years.

BTW, 3.0 ... tightly packed ... hmmmmm, try the STR

 

I've replaced my transmission cooler lines twice now, something I've credited to my driving style combined with the weather of Minnesota (extremes of heat and cold). Anyways, the mechanic at the dealership told me that the crimps are the weak points, and that he has replaced his personal XJ8's lines a couple of times before doing some sort of non-oem fix to the crimps. I wish I knew more, but that was all I was able to get out of him and I don't think the service writer was thrilled that he told me that much.

 

Joshua,

How much did you pay for the job?

 

First make sure it's not P/S fluid?? The pump is in that area and any fluid will end up on those steel lines. I just went thru this on my STR and it was P/S fluid. It was wet like you described it.

The weep is from the crimp between the metal and rubber as you noted. I think the crimp is the problem and not the metal or rubber hose. If you read the JTIS they will have you dropping the sub frame and just about everything else.

The best suggestion I saw was get the car in the air using a lift so you have a lot of room to swing the lines around. I don't think Jack stands would get the car high enough in the air.
Cut the old lines out by snipping the rubber line. Then bend the new lines to get them in place and then work the bend back out after you slide them in. Those suggestions came from a guy changing them out on a V-8. I think the V-6 has better access but not by much!

I did see a back yard repair where they removed the lines by bending them to get them out. Then cutting the crimp off using a Dremel tool or some other small cut off wheel tool. You just want to get the crimp off and not cut the hose or metal tube. I have done this on other hose/tube assemblies and if you take your time it can be done pretty precisely. Once you can grab an edge of the crimp it’s thin metal and can be peeled off using side cutters or pliers. Then he slid the rubber hose back over the metal tube and used two worm drive clamps installed in opposite directions. He claimed no more seeps at all after that repair.
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Thanks for the details, tbird6. Was your power steering pump leaking, or were you losing power steering fluid from the plastic reservoir? Were you losing enough fluid to notice from the level markings on the reservoir? My issue seems like the classic ATF weep, not a true leak yet. Not enough fluid to even form a drip anywhere....

 

Well it's only been two weeks after replacing the P/S pump but everything looks OK.

It was the pump but I still can't see where it's coming from even with the pump in my hands? I think the case is split like the A/C compressor and it had a weep in that area. I would mess with it more but it had a core charge and I did not take the old pump apart. Plastic reservoir is bone dry.

It was such a small leak that at first I could not tell if it was ATF or P/S fluid. I only had to add fluid to the P/S every 6 weeks or so. But after a few months it was plain that the P/S was losing a very small amount of fluid. I lived with it for over 1 1/2 years but I HATE leaking cars! It put out a very small drip on the ground but it was small.

Turned out to be a cheap fix as my other thread mentions. The P/S pump from the Lincoln LS is exactly the same and was only $60 with a lifetime warranty. If I knew that I would have just replaced it before but I checked Jaguar and got scared at the price. Over $800!!
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Hey Jon, I had mine go at about 50,000 miles. Started as a slow seep and progressed to all out big leak. Car was under extended warranty but was not covered due to leak at rubber to steel joint. That sucked. Had it towed to dealer with my AAA membership. Did not want to drive the 40 miles and bleed out the tranny. Cost somewhere between $1000-1200 for the repair. Talked to Brutal before and he confirmed diagnosis and cost. Nasty job even with lift.

If I was doing it now (took it to dealer then due to the warranty) hoped for a deal off some sorts,,not.... I would use my tube cutters and cut out some of the metal and all of the rubber swage fitting. It goes from steel to rubber and steel again. Rad to tranny.
I would then just put in a new piece of rubber and clamp. Very hard to reach area but your labor is free. The rubber needs to be there due to movement and vibration down there.
If it is just seeping now keep a very close eye on it, you don't want to be far from nowhere when it leaks fast.
Good luck

 

Thanks for your feedback, MyBlackCat. I was wondering if the weep eventually turns into a full-out leak. In your case, it did....

I like your idea of cutting out the faulty rubber hose / crimp and replacing it with a new rubber hose and worm-type clamps. But right now, I don't see how I can get my huge hands up in there (with tools, no less) to effectively make that happen. I need the hands of a five-year-old girl to be able to pull that off....

Any ideas, guys?

 

I think it was in the same range mentioned by MyBlackCat, $1,000 to $1,200, as painful as that is for a couple of hoses. But, that price is largely labor and also does include a refill/top-off of the liquid gold. I just wish I felt more comfortable doing this particular work myself, but last thing I want to do is screw up a transmission component.

 

The Greensboro dealership (Flow Jaguar) quoted me $775 for the job late this afternoon. Parts would be $242 and 4 hours of labor would make up the rest. A fairly good price coming from a dealership, but I still don't like shelling out that kind of money to replace a known design-flawed pair of transmission lines with the very same design-flawed lines yet again....

I'm going to drop the belly pan again one morning next week, take the car to a local indy shop that I trust, get the car up on one of their lifts, show them the challenge they face, and see if they are willing to cut the two crimped hoses out of the equation, replace them with sturdy rubber hoses, and use worm-drive type clamps to solve this issue the way it should have been designed and built. They may decline the job but it never hurts to ask....

Stay tuned....

 

Just make sure that you/they use really high quality hose clips - the type used for fuel hoses, not the type used for coolant hoses. The fuel hose clips are much better at withstanding higher pressures. I would also use two at each end "just in case"

 

Well, wouldn't hurt - but it's low pressure I reckon.

 

I don't believe that pressure will be an issue. If it was, Jaguar would have been even dumber to use their original inferior design....

 

Jon, I don't have any contributions to this thread, but I am later this afternoon climbing under Joyces Jag to do a 710 change. I am a bit worried what I may find under there as well since it has been along time since I too had to get under her chassis .

Good luck with the indy this week, I know you will update us as soon as you know something.

 

+1

Their design has two important benefits:

360 degree clamping pressure
rolled edges to avoid cutting into the hose

 

Rick,

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Joyce's transmission lines to be dry as a bone....

Let us know what you find under her chassis....

 

Update:

Spoke with my trusted local indy shop this morning. They fix this exact problem on various European vehicles on a regular basis (Jaguar is not the only company to use this lousy hose design). They cut out the weeping hoses, replace them with high-quality hydraulic hoses, and use two hydraulic hose clamps on each end as an extra measure of security. Once this is done, the problem is permanently solved. They have never had one of these repairs fail....

At $97.50 an hour, having them fix my S-Type will come in somewhere between $300 and $400. I'm leaning strongly towards this option....

 

Keep us up to date on how that goes. It appears to be a reasonable solution and I would feel comfortable using their methodology of repair, especially if they have encountered the problem in other makes.

 

As I am currently involved in a transmission cooler saga of my own, I will share what I have found.

2003 S-type 4.2 NA /6hp26 gearbox, Lifeguard 6 OEM fluid, <30,500 miles of pampered service since new.....

I spoke with the ZF Engineering department here in the US and learned the following. Overfilled is just as bad as under filled. The pressure from the transmission to the cooler and back is at about 3-4 bar. A pin hole that is unobservable will weep at a prodigious rate. Jaguar's design is fine until it is necessary to replace it. The lines run in parallel held in position by 3 black plastic clamps ( distance pieces ) to ensure the lines when installed remain clear of chassis and air deflector enroute to the radiator from the transmission. The lines are a combination of high pressure hose forward and aluminum lines aft with O-rings providing a seal on all 4 unions. When the engine and transmission are mated at the factory this is the last time access is easy. Next the engine /transmission/drive line is offered up to the chassis from below. Replacement will forever after require the engine to be lifted up and the AC compressor removed from its mount to gain enough access to effect a replacement of the lines.

With the current shop rates approaching $150 /hr. and shop fees of $75 at 4-5 hours of labor plus parts and fluid, this will not be an inexpensive repair.

While designed to be a sealed 100,000 mile unit, reports of shift quality, noises "the ZF squawk" and poor maintenance suggest that a interim fluid/filter/pan and gasket might be the way to avoid an expensive premature failure of epic scale. I say epic because I consider a $ 4-6000 repair unacceptable.

Just happen to have one in stock image below

There is another alternative. Having vast experience in aviation, I have had my XJ6 lines made from the old one at an aviation hydraulic repair station.
So in other words have a repair station take portions of the factory lines once cleaned and deburred and mate them with swaged high pressure hoses that would allow installation flexibility and provide an useful and in most cases lower cost replacement. Some engineering will be required such as a template for length and how much aluminum line to retain, but not rocket science.

I plan to make a back up replacement from my original lines once retrieved from the upcoming repair. I will update as completed.

Cheers Robert