Since I work at GPC the parent of NAPA im curious to know more about the ZF transmission fuild.

I have a feeling we might be able to sell it at our napas and would be cheaper then the dealerships if anyone is interested.

I know there has to be an equiv. of the liquid gold out there.

 

Please search for a great thread from a poster named CCC. He did a wonderful write up on ZF transmission fluid changes and it also brought out several different transmission fluids for the ZF. You will need to make your own decision because it's still not 100% clear which way to go. I am NOT going to use the over priced factory fluid. Other fluids have been used but the number of miles driven is still low. So long term results are not certain.

I do think that everyone has been convinced that it is stupid to consider the fluid "lifetime". It is not and you will get increased transmission life if the fluid is changed.
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my tranny doesnt use it. but since I do work for a major autoparts company I figured I'd throw the dog a bone. proverbially speaking.

My Jag has the ford 5 spd tranny in it.

 

It would be great if a chain could sell the ZF lifeguard6 at some reasonable price. I believe the ZF price is approx $40/qt. The mail order alt. that is popular but, doesn't meet the Jag spec, is made by pentosin. The two that claims to meet jag spec is redline ATF (synth but easy to find) and castol multi-vehicle (non-synth but hard to find in SoCal).

 

You would think that Pentosin or someone else would test their fluids on a ZF 6HP26 transmission by now and do their own certificaitons. The ZF model trans is used on several cars including some BMW's, Jaguars and even the Hyundai Genesis. It doesn't seem like it would be too expensive to drain, refill and test the transmission on a car using that trans.

 

Testing just one vehicle (or even several) with alternative fluids does not produce a valid, conclusive test. At least hundreds of vehicles with the 6-speed ZF must be run with these alternative fluids for significant periods of time in all types of driving conditions in order to generate meaningful data. Until that happens, you're essentially rolling the dice with other fluids. They may perform equally or even better than the factory fluid, or they may fail and cause very expensive transmission problems....

It's a tough decision given the astronomical cost of ZF Fluid even at reduced prices from places like Whatever It Takes Transmission Parts. There is always a risk factor involved. At this point, I'm not willing to take that risk. As the car ages and continues to depreciate, I may become more willing to try something like Castrol Multi-Vehicle Import ATF. Last time I checked, it was selling for perhaps $5 a quart when it was on sale in our neck of the woods. Castrol claims that it meets the Shell M1375.4 mineral oil specs of ZF Fluid (Lifeguard 6), but of course Jaguar Corporate says that it is not approved and will void any warranty you may still have on your car. Very tempting from a cost standpoint, but again, at what risk? The jury is still out and probably will be for quite awhile....

 

so the ZF fluid is mineral based I gather?

 

Yes it is. And just to add my 2 cents...

If your company does decide to carry a fluid for these transmissions I'm sure they will want to make sure it does not void any warranty. I really want to service my trans but know if I don't put in a fluid that is approved and have a trans issue down the road, they will not fix it under warranty. There are a great number of people who have this trans and have some sort of warranty on their cars.

 

I believe the mineral base is just a synth oil process used by Shell that forms a low grade synthetic oil. In the US, it can be called synthetic but not in Europe so "worldly" Jaguar calls it a "mineral oil." Its best to equate mineral oil as low grade synthetic base and proves once again the cost has nothing to do with price.

As far as warranty goes, with most fluids, Jaguar calls out a spec. For the AT, its the Shell spec, for the motor oil is a family of oil by weight and a API spec for grade. In those and many other cases, the recommended fluid is by spec not by brand. If you meet the spec or exceed the spec then it should be covered under warranty. In otherwords, if Jaguar recommends Castrol 5W30 but the spec says 0W30, 5W30, 0W40, and 5W40 is allowed, if you decide to use Mobil 1 0W30, you have meet the spec and the warranty should be valid.

In terms of testing, will the larger number of transmissions on the market and the large number of factors within a transmission that can be effected by the fluid, I don't think anyone realistic tests with actual cars for any fluid sold on the replacement market. Thats why the industry is spec driven, dextron III, Mercon V, etc, Shell M...., Esso..., etc. If an OEM is considering using a fluid, it will probably test to see that it meets the spec and run it in actual cars to verify performance.

Beyond the spec, there exists a large "forum" based users that have used the Pentosin ATF (doesn't meet the Jaguar Shell Spec) in the ZF6 transmission in BMW and Jaguars. There doesn't seem to be any issues caused by the fluid. Not really being a test, if someone were to report an issue with the transmission in 30Kmiles after using Pentosin, there really isn't any data or root cause analysis that would say its the fluid and not some other design weakness.

At the end of the day, it doesn't meet the shell spec but its widely accepted on the BMW forum (much more BWM sold then Jag's by a large number) & has the same color as the ZF/factory fluid. It also seems that a large number of ZF equiped makes have accepted the BMW forum conclusion. At the end of the day, the shell spec just seems to be a more stringent subset of the base Dextron III spec and with the true synthetic Pentosin at $12-15/qt is a very compelling alternative to the ZF/factory fluid. It would be great if this fluid was readily available vs a mail order speciality.

On the other hand, the redline ATF4 ($10-12/qt) meets the spec and is also a high quality synthetic fluid. It would be great if you could talk them into rebranding the same fluid without the red dye. IMO, that would be the best and most cost effective option for the ZF.

On a personal note, it would be great if Pentosin products were carried in general by a major US part store; especially in markets where European cars are quite common (like in SoCal). I have one that uses it in the power steering and another car that uses it for the clutch, steering, and rear wing. They have specific products that many European makes use that is not compatible with generic ATF/Brake fluid

 

I am Adam Adamant about this: I had my atf fluid replaced with full synth. fluid meeting DexronVI/LT71141 spec. (believed to be Mobil), PLUS an additive made by Forte*, and it's done the transmission nothing but good. Al the snoring noises, clutchpack juddering, temperature effects and iffy changes have completely disappeared after doing 400mile or so. The autobox now changes like an electric train. This experience is VERY convincing. It will convince you.
Leedsman.
*The additive is required because you can't get all the old fluid out with a conventional change. About a third is left in the torque converter, so you need to replenish the loss/damage to existing additive due to heat and mileage. I have made explanations about this elesewhere at this forum. I won't be a party to the Jaguar atf fluid rip-off either.

 

But what about us folks that don't want to void our warranty?????

 

Jeff,

Unless you have a leak or something else, would a transmission failure NOT be covered under either the original or Select Edition warranties? Jaguar doesn't have any sort of service recommendation for the "lifeguard" fluid do they? So they can't balk at improper maintenance or other "neglect" if you're supposed to just leave it alone right?

According to my reading here 100k is a reasonable in service life for the fluid, so even if you are under select edition, I wouldn't worry about it so much...

Besides who has actually had a ZF trans fail besides guys with STR's who beat the hell out of them??

George

 

The first part is correct and I wouldn't really care if I knew for a fact the car was going away before June 21st, 2011 or 100k miles, whatever comes first.... My issue is I might keep it longer. It has 60k on it now. I drive my car a lot more aggressively than most. In my opinion, the fluid breaking down is a contributor to my inability to shake the dreaded "lurch". Even if that is not the case, I have always flushed and serviced any auto trans I've ever had at 40k to 50k miles and have not had any failure, ever. I've had 80's "crap" domestics run to over 250k without any trans issues. Many different makes. I feel "stick with what works." I just fear that if I do service this one and go with a "recommended replacement" fluid and something does fail, I'm up the creek without a paddle.....

 

Jaguar Corporate has already told me that if you put any ATF other than ZF Fluid in these transmissions, you void your warranty. So if you're under warranty and want to stay that way, you must use ZF Fluid - period. I would drain-and-fill, not flush....

 

And I will still swear by the flush method. That is one area that I will not concede.

But, in the case of the ZF, it will be a less effective drain and fill since I can't see spending hundreds on fluid!

 

F.A.O. Josworth: We need to be clear here about the issues.
Issue #1 -- an engineering issue concerning the proper replacement/maintenance of ATF fluid in autobox. Failure to replace exhausted fluid could arguably result in highly expensive damage to the autobox. Therefore the cost of fluid replacement should be as minimal as possible within reason. The phrase "sealed for life" contained in the Jag. handbooks is meaningless both in engineering terms, and others. We have an exact parallel re. fluid replacement with those stone chips in windscreens/shields. UK insurance companies are more than willing to pay the £30 or so to fix stone chips to stop them spreading with body vibration, thusly saving hundreds of pounds later for replacements. There are UK tv adverts to this effect seen only yesterday. It's called "preventive maintenance".
Issue #2 -- warranties. This is a different issue, a LEGAL one. There is a connexion with issue #1 in that you would be expected to carry out preventive maintenance. Failure to do so could be construed by a court as "constructive or wanton neglect" if this defence were to be put forward as a reason to refuse warranty obligations. So if push came to shove, and a company refused my warranty claim because I had carried out maintenance according to normally accepted standards, I would immediately send them a recorded letter outlining my intention to sue at court should they default on their warranty obligations for spurious reasons. In UK there are many Acts (of Parliament) protecting consumers from what is often called mis-selling nowadays; this has come down from iffy financial services. This operation will neatly drag in to the legal issue the rip-off being operated by Jaguar/ZF in the cost of their fluid, and you will OF COURSE mention this at court, and provide evidence to this effect.
Summing up: If you make it clear you know the law and are prepared to act upon it, resistance is likely to disappear once litigation costs are realized, together with adverse publicity. I can't quote the law in other countries outside the UK.
One might consider it prudent before accepting a warranty in the first place, to outline IN WRITING on the document the kind of preventive maintenance you intend to carry out within the warranty period so you are not accused of constructive neglect, BEFORE YOU SIGN IT. I was invited to sign a document that a salesman claimed to be a three month warranty for a car I was buying, and I found contained within (because I read EVERYTHING VERY CAREFULLY before I sign it) some small print with the phrase "this document is NOT a warranty". I did not sign it. The sale went through at a lower price, £900 lower to be exact.
I fully agree this is not an easy area to deal with, one of the spin-offs from the rip-off chicanery being operated by a manufacturer trying to make exess profits out of service spare parts. But we must not give in to this!!! We must not just roll over and pay up! We must stand our ground and fight for what is right! Never give in!
Leedsman.

 

My intention was not to stir the pot, simply since I have access to endless auto parts catalogs, and suppliers was to search for a safe alternative to the liquid gold.

 

For us that are out of warranty, and up there in the miles... Mine is at 99,xxx miles, and I have no select edition warranty. IS the redline ATF4 full synthetic an acceptable subsitute to the Lifeguard6 Shell fluid? And can it be added in a drain and fill capacity to the existing fluid in the trans??

George

 

I'm not sure it's wise to blame Jaguar for the cost of Shell M1375.4 oil, which is apparently the oil required for the gearbox made by the German company ZF.

 

I don't know that we are attempting to assign blame, rather attempting to find a suitable, viable, lower cost alternative. I really think that the whole problem with the ZF trans fluid is the fact that they honestly intended for it to not be touched for life. It's a theoretically "non-serviceable" transmission.

George