ZF transmission oil and sleeve change writeup with pics FAQ
#62
#63
Guys - I posted some time ago about following the trans fluid replacement - stumpled a bit with the connector, but got it done (thanks all).
I wanted to let folks know, that I did replace the 20 odd pan fasteners with stainless steel hex heads. In doing so, I found that I needed to utilize a METRIC FENDER WASHER under each - DO NOT use a standard metric washer. Use of the standard metric washer results in the load being applied ONLY to the compression limiters, as the OD of the washer is not sufficient to bear against the pan itself. Use of the larger fender washers will allow for the pan to be picked up upon torquing of the fasteners, establishing the clamp and seal at the pan mating face as required.
When a guy uses the small washers (standards), he no pick up the pan, just squeezes the compression limiter barrels in the pan = lots of leakage do to insufficient (none) sealing of the pan face.
And yes, unfortunately, I know this for a fact.
I wanted to let folks know, that I did replace the 20 odd pan fasteners with stainless steel hex heads. In doing so, I found that I needed to utilize a METRIC FENDER WASHER under each - DO NOT use a standard metric washer. Use of the standard metric washer results in the load being applied ONLY to the compression limiters, as the OD of the washer is not sufficient to bear against the pan itself. Use of the larger fender washers will allow for the pan to be picked up upon torquing of the fasteners, establishing the clamp and seal at the pan mating face as required.
When a guy uses the small washers (standards), he no pick up the pan, just squeezes the compression limiter barrels in the pan = lots of leakage do to insufficient (none) sealing of the pan face.
And yes, unfortunately, I know this for a fact.
Last edited by jar; 08-19-2010 at 12:17 PM. Reason: misspell, confusion
#65
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: PHX some of the time
Posts: 117,691
Received 6,339 Likes
on
5,524 Posts
#66
Sorry, no pics - but imagine if you will, blood red fluid seeping from every fastener head and you get the picture.
No need for confusion.
When you buy the pan, take a close look at it, and in each fastener location around the perimeter, you will note a small metal barrel pressed into each of the holes. That little barrel is a compression limiter. It is manufactured to very specific tolerances in height (or length, if you prefer such a description). Note its height (or length) is slightly shorter than the thru holes in the pan. Its function is to prevent cracking/warping of the pan - in an over torqued condition, they take and share the load being applied by the pan. Therefore, the pan should be saved.
When you install this pan with the stock fasteners, they have a large flange head (the difference between stock and an off the shelf replacement - these are non standard, specials). When you torque the fastener up, the flange on the fastener head has an OD large enough to get outboad of the compression limiter in the hole, thereby bearing against the pan itself. As you move around to each location, torquing each fastener to spec, the pan is drawn up to the mating face on the trans, essentially sliding on each little barrel - basically "pressing" the pan up to the mating face around the limiters. Should you continue to torque the fasteners, the pan will deform locally - until you hit the barrel - hence limiting the compression the pan could see, and ultimately saving the pan from cracking/warping.
When I went to the standard M6 hex head and the standard washer, the OD of the washer was not sufficient to pick up the pan - a fact I failed to notice - so when I installed, I had virtually no load applied to the pan, as the diameter of each washer was so small as to not grab much of the pan itself. Basically, I torqued up to the limiters, and left the pan behind - not good. Re-installing with metric fender washers got me up to the OD of the stock fastener, let me pick up the pan when I torqued, and accomplish the face seel.
Compression limiter = safety stop. It prevents damage in the event of over torquing, by ostensibly establishing a set distance of compression, sharing the clamp load of the part if need be, thereby (hopefully), saving critical damage to the component being installed.
Use the fender washer if you go to a standard hex. No muss, no fuss.
No need for confusion.
When you buy the pan, take a close look at it, and in each fastener location around the perimeter, you will note a small metal barrel pressed into each of the holes. That little barrel is a compression limiter. It is manufactured to very specific tolerances in height (or length, if you prefer such a description). Note its height (or length) is slightly shorter than the thru holes in the pan. Its function is to prevent cracking/warping of the pan - in an over torqued condition, they take and share the load being applied by the pan. Therefore, the pan should be saved.
When you install this pan with the stock fasteners, they have a large flange head (the difference between stock and an off the shelf replacement - these are non standard, specials). When you torque the fastener up, the flange on the fastener head has an OD large enough to get outboad of the compression limiter in the hole, thereby bearing against the pan itself. As you move around to each location, torquing each fastener to spec, the pan is drawn up to the mating face on the trans, essentially sliding on each little barrel - basically "pressing" the pan up to the mating face around the limiters. Should you continue to torque the fasteners, the pan will deform locally - until you hit the barrel - hence limiting the compression the pan could see, and ultimately saving the pan from cracking/warping.
When I went to the standard M6 hex head and the standard washer, the OD of the washer was not sufficient to pick up the pan - a fact I failed to notice - so when I installed, I had virtually no load applied to the pan, as the diameter of each washer was so small as to not grab much of the pan itself. Basically, I torqued up to the limiters, and left the pan behind - not good. Re-installing with metric fender washers got me up to the OD of the stock fastener, let me pick up the pan when I torqued, and accomplish the face seel.
Compression limiter = safety stop. It prevents damage in the event of over torquing, by ostensibly establishing a set distance of compression, sharing the clamp load of the part if need be, thereby (hopefully), saving critical damage to the component being installed.
Use the fender washer if you go to a standard hex. No muss, no fuss.
The following users liked this post:
Panthro (08-16-2011)
#67
Not to add to the confusion here but, were there washers installed before you originally removed the fluid pan? Or since you decided on using hex head bolts rather than the Torx, you added the standard metric washers and found that the OD was to small then you went to the fender washers.
On replacing the sleeve that you experienced some problem with. The sleeve is a one way in and one way out, there is a plastic nub on the inside of the sleeve that corresponds with the electrical connector inside the tranny. Sorry boys I did not take pictures of that!
On replacing the sleeve that you experienced some problem with. The sleeve is a one way in and one way out, there is a plastic nub on the inside of the sleeve that corresponds with the electrical connector inside the tranny. Sorry boys I did not take pictures of that!
#68
No.
Stock condition is the "special" (meaning a non-standard) fastener. The head of the stock (OEM) fastener is flanged to an OD that matches a conventional fender washer. The head of the OEM fastener functions as the washer. My guess is the "special" was meant to eliminate a lot of small bits and pieces in the task - 21 fasteners instead of 21 fasteners + 21 washers.
I was reluctant to spend 2.50 per for 21 of those guys. We work with Fastenal as a fastener supplier here, so it was easier (and more cost effective) for me to go with a standard fastener. Plus, now I have SS hex drive fasteners, so if I have to go in again, she'll be a lot easier of a task.
The hex works fine, there is plenty of tool clearance for the socket to get on them (which was my biggest concern) - just get the metric fender washer to match.
Stock condition is the "special" (meaning a non-standard) fastener. The head of the stock (OEM) fastener is flanged to an OD that matches a conventional fender washer. The head of the OEM fastener functions as the washer. My guess is the "special" was meant to eliminate a lot of small bits and pieces in the task - 21 fasteners instead of 21 fasteners + 21 washers.
I was reluctant to spend 2.50 per for 21 of those guys. We work with Fastenal as a fastener supplier here, so it was easier (and more cost effective) for me to go with a standard fastener. Plus, now I have SS hex drive fasteners, so if I have to go in again, she'll be a lot easier of a task.
The hex works fine, there is plenty of tool clearance for the socket to get on them (which was my biggest concern) - just get the metric fender washer to match.
The following users liked this post:
Panthro (08-16-2011)
#69
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: PHX some of the time
Posts: 117,691
Received 6,339 Likes
on
5,524 Posts
#70
Sorry to ask but what's a "metric fender washer"? (I know fender is wing, over here.) Are they just like any other washer except of a particular combination of diameters for outer size and inner hole? If so, what are those measurements? Metric probably means mm etc, which is fine if you can tell me the numbers
#71
Sorry to ask but what's a "metric fender washer"? (I know fender is wing, over here.) Are they just like any other washer except of a particular combination of diameters for outer size and inner hole? If so, what are those measurements? Metric probably means mm etc, which is fine if you can tell me the numbers
#72
#73
#74
#76
Replace fender for bumper over here. Our bumpers are usually fastened on with washers considerably wider than a standard washer to spread the tightening torque over more of the bumper especially as usually plastic now.
I intend doing this job this week or next week and have 2 options.
1. Use old bolts, unsure what difference is between old ones and supposed
upgraded ones. Do they have loctite on the threads? if so what colour
is the loctite. They aren't stretch bolts so can be used again.
2. Replace with new 6mm bolts using a suitable washer.
Thanks
I intend doing this job this week or next week and have 2 options.
1. Use old bolts, unsure what difference is between old ones and supposed
upgraded ones. Do they have loctite on the threads? if so what colour
is the loctite. They aren't stretch bolts so can be used again.
2. Replace with new 6mm bolts using a suitable washer.
Thanks
#77
Replace fender for bumper over here. Our bumpers are usually fastened on with washers considerably wider than a standard washer to spread the tightening torque over more of the bumper especially as usually plastic now.
I intend doing this job this week or next week and have 2 options.
1. Use old bolts, unsure what difference is between old ones and supposed
upgraded ones. Do they have loctite on the threads? if so what colour
is the loctite. They aren't stretch bolts so can be used again.
2. Replace with new 6mm bolts using a suitable washer.
Thanks
I intend doing this job this week or next week and have 2 options.
1. Use old bolts, unsure what difference is between old ones and supposed
upgraded ones. Do they have loctite on the threads? if so what colour
is the loctite. They aren't stretch bolts so can be used again.
2. Replace with new 6mm bolts using a suitable washer.
Thanks
No loctite but do recommend use of an anti-seize to facillate later removal. They are not stretch bolts
#78
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: PHX some of the time
Posts: 117,691
Received 6,339 Likes
on
5,524 Posts
#79
#80
I don't know what its made of, but is molded and has relative high compliance so it may be used more then once. Can't remember what the drain plug has but o-ring would be my guess