jagloverforver, the dip and main beams are powered from 2 different sources (headlight switch and the turn signal stalk. So, unless you have rewired the car, I don't see the tie there. The only potential would be if the main beams (pin 9) was damaged and it was shorting to pin 1 (running lights). That would cause the main beams to come on whenever the headlight switch is not in the OFF position (A position).

With this being said, I would say to do 2 things. Remove fuses F85 and F86, but also remove relay R15 (fog/main beam relay). At this point, with these 3 things removed, turn on your headlights. You should not have your fog lights or your main beams on at this point. If you have a main beam on, then you have a short in the wiring between the fuse box and the headlight assembly on that side. This narrows down where you have a wiring issue. Next, install fuses F85 and F86. Do the main beams come on now? If yes, then you have a problem internal to the main engine bay fuse box. This will require replacing that fuse box. Finally, install a jumper wire between terminals 3 and 4 inside the fuse box where relay R15 was. Do the headlights come on now? If yes, then again, you have a fuse box issue and this will require replacing the fuse box. If the main beams are still not on, then you have a bad relay R15. Please keep in mind that this is going to be only 1 of a number of issues. But, this atleast explains the main beams. It is possible that once you find the issue with the main beams, this will clue you in to where your other problems are most likely located.

If you are in the US or Canada, if you want to call me, let me know. I can talk with you and maybe give you a few pointers on what to check. PM me if this is desirable.

 

Hi Thermo

Sorry for the long gap, have only just got an update for you.

In the end I decided I just didn't have the time or car know how to tackle this, so took it to my local dealer.

As a reminder the last issue was:

• F16 was blown - once replaced and ignition turned on and light switch moved to position 2 - neither of the dip beams came on...but instead the main beam for both sides came on.

I created a little document with all the helpful advice/suggestions you had given on what could be the likely cause(s).



On delivery of the car- they had a quick test of the lights and did some initial checks and said they think its a short in the wiring and not connector or fuses.

I asked them to check the things you suggested first as I thought it was wise to eliminate them first - namely,

• Check connector, the relevant relays and fuses

They have called and said they spent 2 hours checking the wiring and stated:

• They swapped out one or two relays (they haven't told me exactly how many or which as yet)
• They have determined that power is getting to the headlamp unit connector, but not to the bulb -
• and have concluded the issue is within the head lamp unit itself. They said as its a sealed unit they can't repair it.

They quoted around £750 for a new unit and 2 hours labour to fit.

My plan is to go and speak to the technician who did the testing.

My questions for you are:

1) do you think it would take a trained technician a full 2 hours to reach the conclusion that the issue was within the headlamp unit - even if they did have to swap out a couple of relays (which I would think took a few minutes)

2) what can I ask them to show me to prove the issue is within the headlamp unit - my concern is that I get a replacement unit and the issue is still present in some form.

3) Regarding fitting a new headlamp unit - does 2 hours sound right to you for taking off the bumper and swap out the headlamp unit

4) do you have any other thoughts based on your previous experiences


All advice appreciated - thanks.

 

jaglover, please keep in mind that most dealerships have a set schedule for what they charge for work. For example, the dealership may only be able to charge say 0.5 hours for an oil change. If the tech busts his butt and completes it in 15 minutes, he gets 15 minutes of free pay (15 minutes for his work, 15 minutes that he is "gifted" because the work should have taken 30 minutes). So, in the case of your headlights, the dealership is allowed to charge 2 hours of labor time to replace a headlight. So, say 45 minutes to remove the bumper cover, 30 minutes to swap the headlight housing, 45 minutes to put the bumper cover back on. Since you are getting 2 headlights done, they will charge you for 2 bumper removals, 2 headlight changes, and 2 bumper installations, even though a smart technician would only remove the bumper cover once. So, he could potentially get both headlight assemblies replaced in say an hour (because they know all the tricks for getting the bumper cover on and off) and get paid for 4 hours of work. On the flip side, if the tech took his sweet time on an oil change and took 90 minutes, he still only gets paid for the 30 minutes. So, it goes both ways.

1) So, in the case of the troubleshooting, spending 2 hours figuring out the wiring issue is not really unheard of and is probably fairly realistic just due to the amount of looking at the diagrams and coming up with a plan (lord knows I spend a fair amount of time looking at them myself). So, I can see that.

2) based on what I have seen here, I would have a fair amount of trust in what the tech found. I know there are a lot of headlight related issues that were resolved by fiddling with the wiring inside the headlight housing. Because of the dealership, they are not really going to troubleshoot down much further than to a component like someone like me would in my driveway. So, you are pretty much going to have to take the techs word for this.

3) 2 hours to do both headlight assemblies is not too far off for a normal level of effort at a dealership. Could you get it done in less time, probably. But, at the same time, someone doing this for the first time would probably end up taking say around 3 hours. But, after that first time, you could be under 2 hours fairly easy. For the cost of parts and labor, my personal recommendation would be to find a good set of headlights on the secondary market (E-bay, Carparts.com, etc) and then have a local shop install the headlights if not do it yourself. The local shop is going to more than likely charge a lower hourly rate and get it done in 2 hours"ish".

4) As I have stated, if the dealership says it is the headlight assemblies, that would not surprise me. Find a good set of headlights outside the dealership and have a local garage install the headlights for you unless you want to do it yourself. The big "fear" you have to watch out for is that the internals of the headlights are broken. Now, this can go 2 ways. You can buy broken headlights for dirt cheap and then buying a $40 kit, you can get the parts to rebuild the internals and be guaranteed headlights that won't fail on you in a year or if you are buying some that they say are good, send them an e-mail indicating that "if you receive them broken, they will take them back". This will normally stop most people trying to pawn off broken headlights. If the seller is not willing to state the condition of the headlights and/or guarantee them not being broken/will allow a return if they are broken, then move on to another seller. There are plenty of headlights out there. A little bit of work here can save you lots of money. Putting your eyes on things will also give you a bit of reassurance that the issue is being removed from the car. Normally the problems show up in the headlight connectors.

 

Hi Thermo,

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.its much appreciated.

May be I should have laid out my concerns in more detail.

My concern is that I was initially told that they had spent some time doing there own prelim checks and concluded (after first suggesting it was the bulb at fault...and I provided them with a new one which proved it wasn’t):

That it was definitely a short between one or more wires and it would take anything up-to 5 hours to find and fix the issue. They were adamant that no fuses (other than F16) or relays were at fault.

I went to see them and asked them to limit the work to 2 hours to see how far they got, and its at this point that I provided a small document of what I felt they should check first – which they had agreed to do. So this was to test the things you had suggested could be at fault - the connector for any sign of overheating or shorts, then the testing involving F16, R15, F85, F85 AND R9. Which they estimated would take no longer than 30 minutes.


So, my thoughts are – if they did the checks as above and swapped out a couple of relays – they would then check that power was getting to the connector at the headlamp unit – which would eliminate any further testing on the wiring. As if power was getting to the headlamp unit but not to the bulb then surely that would prove the issue was within/localised to the headlamp unit...or am I simplifying things too much.


Another thought was that as its a Xenon setup – could it still be the case that the headlamp unit is fine – but an issue could now be present with the igniter or ballast?




Would appreciate your thoughts on the above please...and as always thanks in advance for your time and help.

 

jaglover, rarely do the factory ballasts fail, let alone, both of them almost back to back (which is what i am gathering from your description. Am I saying that it is not possible. By no means. But, very unlikely.

If you have some time, I want to give you a few checks to do so you can prove this out to yourself. Something is goofey and I am trying to help. So, if you can dedicate some time to the car, I will send a list of simple checks that you can do in your driveway. The hardest part is going to be getting the front bumper off. I think that this is about the only way to really test this unless you can access both plugs for the headlights (1 on each side) and get them apart. In short, I am going to have you make "new bulbs" to put into the connectors so we can see what we have outside of issues with the headlight assemblies. If we can make these external bulbs work, then if you are still having issues, this confirms the headlight housings are bad.

So, lets see if you can pull off the plugs to the headlights without removing the bumper covers and then I need to know how your soldering skills are. This will drive how I go after this.

 

Hi Thermo,

Sorry – it seems that I have inadvertantly introduced ambiguity/confusion – hopefully I can clarify and re-summarise the milestones.

It is only the left headlamp that has the issue – which also had this issue:




The right headlamp unit is fine

To refresh your mind, this was the chain of events:

Initially the left dip bulb wouldn’t light.

I was told it was the bulb and that F16 and Relay 9 were fine– so I supplied a new Xenarc D2S bulb and it still wouldn’t light.

I was then told the bulb was not at fault and it was the wiring – initally that it was short to ground

Then I had a call to say that F16 was blown and when replaced and ignition is turned on and the light switch moved to position C - neither of the dip beams come on...but instead the main beam for both sides come on.



At this point they thought the issue was not short to ground any more – but definitely a short between one or more wires and it would take anything up-to 5 hours to find and fix the issue. They were adamant that no fuses (other than F16) or relays were at fault.

I went to see them and asked them to limit the work to 2 hours, and its at this point that I provided a small document of what I felt they should check first – which they had agreed to do. So this was to test the things you had suggested could be at fault - the connector for any sign of overheating or shorts, then the testing involving F16, R15, F85, F85 AND R9. Which they estimated would take no longer than 30 minutes.

They have now called and said they spent 2 hours checking the wiring and stated:

• They swapped out one or two relays (they haven't told me exactly how many or which as yet)
  
• They have determined that power is getting to the left headlamp unit connector, but not to the bulb -
  
• and have concluded the issue is within the left head lamp unit itself. They said as its a sealed unit they can't repair it.
  

Which is why I then thought the following:

1) Do you think it would take a trained technician a full 2 hours to reach the conclusion that the issue was within the left headlamp unit - even if they did have to swap out a couple of relays (which I would think took a few minutes)

As if they spent the first 30 minutes doing the Connector/Fuse/Relay checks as above and swapped out a couple of relays – I would have thought that they would then check that power was getting to the connector at the left headlamp unit – which would eliminate any further testing on the wiring. As if power was getting to the headlamp unit but not to the bulb then surely that would prove the issue was within/localised to the headlamp unit...or am I simplifying things too much.


2) Another thought was that as its a Xenon setup – could it still be the case that the left headlamp unit is fine – but an issue could now be present with the igniter or ballast.

 

Hi Thermo,

Forgot to add - the garage still has my car.

My plan is to go see them in the next few days (I am based in the uk - so hence the time delay in my replying to your posts).

Hopefully you have had a chance to read my last post.

Would appreciate any further/new thoughts you may now have regarding points 1 and 2 above. - wondering whether my logic is reasonable for point 1.

oh - and thanks for the tips on what to ask/lookout for when buying used units....will ensure I ask the questions.

thanks.

 

jaglover, bah, do not worry about the time delays. It goes both ways. i would say to get the car back from the shop and lets troubleshoot it ourselves. The checks are going to be fairly easy, but we will need access to the plugs for the headlight assemblies. Without this, troubleshooting is going to be much more difficult.

Once you have the car, first thing is to dry out that headlight assembly. This is going to require removing the headlight assembly from the car. This will net you a few things: 1) access to get the water out, 2) access to seal up the headlight assembly to prevent future water intrusion, and 3) access to the plug for troubleshooting. If you are worried about getting it sealed properly, then a replacement housing will be needed. If you do go this route, I would talk to your local auto wreckers/recyclers and pick one up in person. That way you can see the headlight in person and note if the internals are busted before it ever leaves their hands. makes arguing who broke the internals a pretty easy fight. The big thing will be ensuring you get an HID housing vice a standard xenon(H1 bulb) housing.

Now, lets make sure that we are talking the same thing when we say "the main beams are coming on". When you have the turn signal stalk in the mid position (front to back) which will have the main beams not on, when you turn the headlight switch to the ON position, is the little bulb at the top of the inside housing on in each of these housings or is the main beam bulb on (ie, if you look in the housing with your head at the height of the headlight, do you see some light or are you being blinded?). You should be seeing some light, not being blinded. This would be normal. There is a small bulb that is a running light in the inside housing. I have seen where people confuse this light for the main beam. Which, then if you turn on the dip beams and only 1 side lights, then we know the relay is good and we are dealing with either a bad ballast (which is very possible seeing the water intrusion on the one side). Granted, if both of the dip beams are out, then we are most likely looking at a relay issue or a dual failure (dual failures are not likely unless you lived with one issue for a long time and gave the second issue a chance to grow. So, if both DIP beams failed at the same time, odds are, we are looking at a common issue between the two lights, not 2 headlight housings that have internal issues.

Please note that I am trying to use UK terminology to minimize confusion between main beam, dip beam, high beam, etc.

 

Hi Thermo.

The car went in with the Left Xenon dip beam not lighting - all the other lights on both sides were working fine at handover.

I was told it was the bulb and that F16 and Relay 9 were fine– so I supplied a new Xenarc D2S bulb and it still wouldn’t light.

I was then told the bulb was not at fault and it was the wiring – initially that it was short to ground, then a few days later I was told the following (so not instilling me with much faith)

Then I was told the following:

1) F16 – was blown and replaced

2) When ignition is turned on and the light switch moved to position C - neither of the dipped headlights come on...but instead the main beam for both sides come on.


With the switch in position C - these are what come on – classed in the manual as main beam::




What they haven’t told me is what currently happens with the lights after they ‘swapped one or two relays’ - which I will find out when I next visit them.

Do you think one or two faulty relays would cause the main beams to come on instead of the dipped?

So, I don't know if by them replacing a couple of relays has taken the car back to how it was when I took it in - i.e. the left Xenon dip beam not lighting and the above issue with the main beams no longer existing.



Some points/questions for you please:

a) I just watched this video, where the guy checks fuses (16 & 17) and relay 9, ground connections and swaps the rotary switch – and in the end it was fuse 94 that was at fault.

If you are able to watch at the 7 minute 45 seconds mark onwards :
Apparantly F94 is for the HID module – may be I need to tell them to quickly check that 20A fuse: https://fusecheck.com/jaguar/jaguar-...3-fuse-diagram



b) Also – do you agree that if they spent the first 30 minutes checking the Connector/Fuses/Relays and swapped out a couple of relays – I would have thought that they would then check that power was getting to the connector at the left headlamp unit – which would eliminate any further testing on the wiring.

As if power was getting to the headlamp unit but not to the bulb then surely that would prove the issue was within/localised to the headlamp unit. I am trying to figure out why they would then have to spend a further 1.5 hours checking the wiring – given that power was being seen at the left headlamp unit.

If you could please let me know your thoughts on this point please. I am trying to prepare what I can ask when I go in and you opinion on this would help.

The reason for my concern is a few years ago I had an issue where the dealership were charging me for more hours than were actually spent on the car and it took a big effort to get that resolved.

Thanks.

 

jaglover, ok, following up on a few things. Fuse F94 does affect the HID headlights, but it only controls the leveling of the headlights, not anything else. Besides, if you can put your car into reverse and the back up lights come on, then fuse F94 is proven good as the other function fuse F94 does is power the reverse lights and relay. So, I really have to have doubts about fuse F94 fixing what the other guy said.

As for powering the ballast. The power comes in on pin 5 of the headlight assembly. This is the same pin that powers the normal halogen bulbs (H1). Where the difference comes is in the grounding. The halogen bulb setup has everything in the headlight grounding through Pin 10 to the chassis (to a spot directly under the headlight). Because you have the HID setup, you have 2 grounds to your headlight housing. One ground does everything in the headlight (except for the dip beam) and the new ground (attached to pin 8) does nothing but ground the ballast (this was done due to the amount of current the ballasts pull when starting up). The only ways that I can see the dip beams turning on the main beams is to have the ground wires on both headlight assemblies under the headlight housings be disconnected AND you need relay R15 faulted so that what would be the main beam output is now grounded. The only other possibility would again involve both ground terminations under the headlight assemblies being disconnected and the wires between relay R15 and the main beams being damaged and grounded to the chassis. But, this can be proven if you simply have the car running with the headlights off and you pull back on the turn signal stalk to flash the main beams. This would either cause the main beams to not light (indicating that relay R15 is bad) or you would end up blowing fuse F85 and/or fuse F86 (depends on where the ground is in the wiring). Kinda like you can rule out relay R15 as being the suspect by simply turning on the headlights and then pulling out on the headlight switch to turn on your fog lights. Your fog lights and main beams share a common power source (power to relay R15). So, if you can turn on your fog lights and your main beams remain on, then we definitely have a wiring issue.

As for what is going on, something goofey is going on. I am just not sure what is going on as it seems like the shop has some how made things even worse now. If you had water in a headlight housing and that dip beam wasn't working, then a new headlight housing should have fixed all that was bad. But, now having the mains turn on when the dips should be and the dips not coming on at all, this is not making sense. Keep in mind that the dip beams are purposely wired such that one failure will not affect the other side. This is done to help guarantee that you will have atleast one source of light at all times. So, what you are describing would require multiple issues (or the very unlikely event of a rodent eating a bunch of wiring and having a lot of wires getting crossed up).

At this point, I am thinking a drop back and punt is needed. There needs to be a new look at things. This is why I am recommending that you get the car back and pull the front bumper cover off. From there, we can do some basic checks with the headlight assemblies disconnected. This will simplify some wiring and eliminate some potentials. It will also give us a chance to look at stuff that is not always easy to access. At a minimum, I see replacing the headlight assembly that has water in it as the water can lead to many interesting things happening and is never good on electronics. You don't have to buy a new assembly from the dealership. But, I would also get the housing in hand before putting down cash. yes, this may cost you a bit more, but will save a lot of heartache later.

 

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Thanks Thermo - I will digest in the morning.

Did you have any thoughts on point b) in my last post?

thanks.