I have to make a decision on when to pull the plug. My car he as given me 21 years of great service….

O have already posted the issue with my car on another thread. (2002 jag Xtype…fuel filter?) . Thermo has been helping me help a mechanic here who, while a good mechanic, has never worked on a Jag and who has no idea about the Jags idiosyncrasies.

initially after my posting the OBD2 codes, a consensus formed to change the #1 coil and all 6 plugs (Po301) and maybe, while the manifold was off, the KS sensor. Finally found a willing mechanic….and towed the car (engine light blinking so I didn’t want to risk driving) and mechanic did what I asked except for calling before he closed the manifold up re replacing the KS sensor if the wiring looked ok. Note: he didn’t test drive nor rerun his OBD.

so I paid over the phone and went in on Sunday to pick up the car…..and it was actually worse than before. (Started easily but wouldn’t accelerate past 2500 rpm’s and then died. Started easily, but died at every stop sign in the 10 block turn around back to the garage.
on Monday, he redid the codes and got 0300, 0303, 0305 in addition to original 0301.

Thermo next had him check the grounding…but the mechanic said it wasn’t corroded and he thought it was a clogged catalyst (tho the code for that had not come up) I sent a video of the short run I had made with the car to the mechanic because of a unique clink noise I heard (not from the engine)?that I thought might help with diagnosis, but I don’t think he watched it.

Thermo believes the next step in the harness or replacing the Knock Sensor….but I don’t know if the mechanic here is up to the task (Thermo warned that “Of note, if the knock sensor gets replaced, where the plug goes is key. The plug can hit the block and if you then tighten, destroys the sensor.”

So I suspect either of these requires taking off the manifold again ….another $500?????

If an expert like Thermo were working on the car, I’m willing to do it, but with no experts in site, I’m nervous to move forward with these two things in case they aren’t done right.

Because of body damage (a 5mph bump in an icy parking lot with the steel bumper of a truck) I have damage @the headlight on both the quarter panel and hood that was never fixed so the car is only “worth” $1000 except of course to me!

Anyhow, if anyone else has input please feel free to respond! I’m sure that Thermo is tired of me bugging him by now!

 

Belle, I am not tired of you bugging me, Keep things coming.

Since based on our discussions that we seem to be down to 3 things: 1) wiring for the coils, 2) knock sensor, and 3) fuel pump; we can prove/disprove the fuel pump through a simple test that the mechanic can do. ON the passenger side of the motor, there will appear to be a tire stem there (this is called a schrader valve). This connects to the fuel line. He can connect a pressure gauge to that line and if he turns the key to run (engine off), the pressure gauge should jump up to around 60 psig (50-60 psi is good). If he starts the motor, it will drop to around 50 psig (40-50 psi is good). If you are seeing less than that, then you have a bad fuel pump

If you are feeling adventurous and want a free check to try (this does not always work, but does say 50% of the time) is lay next to the car by the rear passenger wheel. If you look under the car (just in front of the wheel), you will see the gas tank there. If you look, there are recesses in the tank and one of them creates a half moon shape. What you want to do is using a closed fist, smack the center of the half moon as hard as you can. This is going to jar the fuel pump. This can cause it to shift and start working properly again for awhile. The car can then be started and it will run fine for a bit. Doesn't hurt to atleast try. MIght help you narrow down what needs to be done next.

As for the knock sensor, that is going to be a replace and see if it changes anything. I cannot think of any checks that you can do to see if that is working or not. As for improperly installing it, do not read into it. What I mean by this is that if you look at where the plug goes into the sensor, this needs to be say orientated to point either straight up (12 o'clock position) or straight down (6 o'clock position). If you position it say where it is pointing to one side (either the 3 or 9 o'clock position), when you tighten it down, where the plug goes makes contact with the engine block and if you tighten it, you break the plug off of the sensor and now you definitely have a broken sensor. I do not recall the exact orientation, but as the mechanic is putting on the sensor, it will be fairly obvious. The factory did not always install it where it did not make contact and some had issues over the years.

As for the harness, really a good visual check will find 99% of the issues. If you can see copper, BAD!!!!!. You see the wiring make a sudden sharp turn, check it, but if it moves at that spot, you probably have a broken wire. BAD!!!!!!. But, if iti s still wrapped up in the factory protection, then odds are, you have good wiring. Pay special attention to the ends near the plugs. If damage is going to happen, most likely there.

So, without killing your wallet in trying to find the problem, I would say put another $100 into having the mechanic test the fuel pressure. IT is nothing more than removing a plastic cap and installing a gauge, turning the ignition key a few times and then noting the pressures. This wil then tell us if you need a new fuel pump (which will more than likely be a $600-800 bill as there is a fair amount of interference that needs to come off to allow dropping the fuel tank) or if you need to ponder spending the money on replacing the knock sensor. I know what it is like having a car that you enjoy, but being put into these situations. If it helps, this repair bill is about 2 months of a new cars payments. May make the pill a little easier to swallow.

 

In other vehicles, I have removed the O2 sensor from the manifold and plugged it back into the harness. This will create a way for the exhaust to escape to test if the Cat is plugged.

The plug for the Knock sensor is on the left side of the manifold. It can be unplugged without removing the manifold. Plug in your new sensor without removing the old one. It would be best to have the sensor attached to the motor by a bolt if you can.

These are just simple inexpensive short-term tests.

 

Thank you , Larry!


when you said you’ve tested the H2O sensors on other cars…did you mean on other Jag Xtypes?


the mechanic tested the fuel pump and says it’s fine. He still believes this is a cat clogged issue….and he wants me to take it to a muffler place to have it tested.

The car gave Poo57 and a P0420 codes in my reading before the plugs and coil change. After, and on the mechanics reader, the 0057 stayed but the 0420 didn’t show up.

I think he may just want my car gone…. He given me the name of someone he says works on Jags specifically, but then said the guy is gone for 2 weeks!

*****if the cat tests ok, then I think he may still be willing to work on the car. I’m wondering if he might diagnose using your H20 unplugging method?

re the cat: I certainly haven’t noticed any black exhaust or excess burning of gas or sulphuric smell. But my engine misfired and has lost acceleration power and stalls out….tho it still starts every single time. I do use cheap gas however and let gas run low before I refill.

just learned the mechanic is from Lebanon and is an electrical engineer. So maybe I was wrong in worrying that he might not have caught some electrical wiring issues when changing the coil. He says that the grounding is fine and he checked the ‘harness’ wiring and it’s ok.

so it seems we have left:
Knock sensor
H2O senser
fuel igniter wiring
clogged cat converter

 

Colorado Belle, I thought I better ask: When you write that you "use cheap gas", do you mean a cheap brand of gas, or do you mean gas with a low octane reading?
Here in Australia we have the choice on the fuel station between 3 kinds of petrol: 91, 95, and 98 octane.

If google is correct, you have in the US the following: 87, 90, and "premium" with 91-94 octane!?!?!????
Please tell me that google is wrong there!

Sometimes I put 95, sometimes 98 octane into my Jags, incl. X-Type. Putting 91 octane into a Jag is not something I would ever do. It is not enough!
So, I don't know...: If you put 87 or 90 octane into your Jag, I know exactly why is does not run...
And if you put "premium" with 91-94 octane into the Jag, you would have to have luck on you side that it runs on that... - I would not expect it to...

 

Colorado Bell

I have not done an O2 sensor removal test on a Jag. But did so on a Ford 4.0 (close) that would not rev up. With the O2 out it revved fine.

Peter

You are correct on our fule. I have used 87 in my X-Types for years and tens of thousands of miles. Never a problem.

 

About the fuel for X-Type:

I just looked it up in the manual of my 2.5L X-Type - this is what the manual say on page 121:

unleaded only.
preferred fuel should have an octane rating of at least 95 RON.
Some countries have only 91 RON fuel. Vehicles in these countries are specially calibrated to use this fuel.
using a lover octane rating can cause persistent, heavy "spark knock" (a metallic rapping noise), If severe, this can lead to engine damage.

Also of importance: If you use fuel containing alcohol, take care not to spill it during refueling, as alcohol can cause paint damage.

This means: In Australia I cannot go below 95 RON.
I assume, the US is one of the "some countries" as referred to in the manual, so there is the assumption in the room that US-Jags are calibrated for 91 RON (although, I am not sure, how that is supposed to work...).

SCRAP EVERYTHING I WROTE ABOVE:
I just found information on google, which explains, what is going on: The US are using a different scale for octane - looks to me like the difference between Celsius and Fahrenheit...:

The good news is that at its most basic level, regular gas is regular gas, and 91 RON in Germany is equivalent to 87 AKI in the United States. Premium is the same, and while premium gasoline is often called “super” by some retailers, 95 RON in Germany is equivalent to 91 AKI in the USA and Canada:

https://www.bmwmoa.org/news/438324/U...20and%20Canada.

SO IN SUMMARY:
Looks like the Jags in the US do not need to be specially calibrated for the US, because 95 RON = 91 US-octane, strange as it is.
But that still means that US Premium (91 US-octane or more) should go into Jags, and not 87 US-octane...

And there is still the question, if Colorado Belle's "cheap fuel" is cheap because of the brand used, or because it's 87 US-octane (note that this is my word creation "US-octane", so that it can be distinguished from the word octane as used in Australia and Germany, which is RON (Research Octane Number)). Driving a Jag on 87 US-octane is a very bad idea and may lead to engine damage, as in the Jaguar manual explained.

 

Very good read Peter, thank you.

We also have what is called Top Tier gas. This is generally sold by larger distributors.

"Top Tier fuel is gasoline or diesel, which has more detergent additives than the Environment Protection Agency requires. Detergent additives help keep engines clean."

I do use a Top Tier 87 fuel. I would be interested in hearing what others are using.

I would think that Belle's problem could be caused by bad gas, not just low priced gas.

 

Larry, I appreciate you appreciated my brain-storming regarding "bad/wrong fuels"...
I think that in Australia and Germany it is mainly SHELL fuel stations being known to add additives into their fuel, which are good for the engine - e.g. to keep the engine clean, as you say.
I just do not see a connection between "keeping you engine clean" and any "Environmental protection agency" - in my little mind that is kind of like, if that same agency requires you to polish your car to prevent it from rusting...

And while we are on the subject of "bad fuel": Not everyone knows that good fuel goes bad after a while. That "while" is hard to define - but I'd say several month.
Fuel can go actually "gluey" as I experienced first hand:
One of my Ford Fairlanes is "dual fuel": Petrol (95 oct) and/or LPG (liquified petroleum Gas). As LPG is cheaper, I always drove it on LPG. But that comes at a price: The petrol in the tank gets old, if I do not use it. It took me a while to understand this. The effect is, that is clocks up the fuel pump. Hence, I am meanwhile very good in swapping that fuel pump in that car - once I swapped it, not understanding how seriously bad the fuel in the tank was - that new fuel pump lasted less than a week as that fuel immediately glued up/clocked up the new fuel pump again....: "Next fuel pump, please!" I could just as well place a standing order for those pumps...
These days, when fuel in one of my cars gets old, I pump it out and use it either as petrol for cleaning purposes, or if it at least still looks good, I fill it into my van - that has an old fashioned carby (carburetor) (no injector) and the fuel pump is - I think - vacuum powered, not via electric motor.

So many problems with cars not running may actually be explained with old petrol having damaged fuel pumps or even clocked up injectors...

So, if someone has a specific engine problem here on the forums, I never read that anyone asked "how old was the petrol in your tank?", which would be an important question...

PS: Larry, Michigan is close to Cleveland. A friend (Rolf is his name) of my father lived there or lives there. I owned a factory, which made paper, if I remember correctly. His sons were also car-nuts.

 

Peter, the additives in the fuel here in the US are two fold as I understand things. Part of the additives are there to help the fuel burn more cleanly (like adding oxygen to the fuel in the winter months). The other idea is that if the internals of the engine are cleaner, you are not going to have as much say valve leakby which is going to allow more unburnt fuel to escape the cylinder. I am sure people can come up with tons of ways for the fuel to leave the car before being fully burnt. This is why people want to get rid of any car that is more than say 10 years old. The motor is worn and it leaks more than a new engine does, therefore emitting more emissions. So, that would be your tie to the EPA requiring additives in the fuel.

 

Oh my goodness! I sure do learn a lot from reading all these posts! Sadly, I’ve learned that I am a bad car mama! For 21 years I’ve been buying unleaded gas for my Jag. Mostly from Sinclair , the local gas station where I lived in Colorado. When visiting my kid in California, where the car has been used @4mo/yr I’ve mostly used fuel from Fuel Depot. Bad,badBelle!

So: this past Saturday I moved my car from the place where I had new sparks and #1 coil put in to a place rec’d by that mechanic to someone who works solely on Jags and Landrovers. First mechanic did what I asked but felt that my problem was the catalytic converter (and suggested I take it to a muffler place to have it diagnosed first) but since I figured I’d have to take it to the Jag mechanic eventually and that he could diagnose a cat issue by just taking off the H2O sensor, I did that. **I told him what had already been done and tested and that I knew nada, but had been ‘the middle man’ between the first mechanic (who was educated as an electrical engineer in Lebanon) and Thermo plus all you other Jaguar warriors!
I also told him I wasn’t willing to invest big bucks in repairs because the car was 21 years old and the front left side body damage/repaint was prohibitive re resale value.

so he called this morning and said car needs a new rear cat. That first he took of O2 sensor to test like I’d asked. That it was so clogged that it blew off the hose of his machine. Something about he put a camera in there (???) and that it was so clogged stuff was rattling around. I asked if it could maybe be unclogged using a citric acid bath, but he said it was too far gone.
quoted $3500. I haven’t gotten specifics of how much for the part vs labor, but it is California so illegal to use any but specific part.

so then I’ve spent a couple hours researching because remember I only need to drive the car 4 months/1000 miles per year AND research shows you can get the part (12 mo guarantee) on eBay….tho I’d have to have it shipped to my sis in Pa cuz they won’t ship to Ca.

BUT then I watched a video of a lay person trying to put in a cat and it wasn’t pretty…and I doubt I could find real mechanic here to do it cuz of cali laws. (I haven’t checked but that’s my gut feel)

I wouldn’t mind if the replacement using a cheaper part) only lasted a year because that would give me time to get a new used car and figure out what to do with this one.

Oh, when I said I couldn’t afford $3500 he said he understood. He may have mentioned knowing someone who rebuilt them then, but I didn’t pursue. Finally he said he’d leave the o2 sensor off so I could drive it….but I don’t think I’ll be able to drive it far….at least driving it from old garage to his (2 miles with 20 red lights) wasn’t fun at all and mostly in first gear.

SO, once again looking for advice.
and can I trust this mechanic or trust that if I did replace the converter that it wouldn’t be something else BECAUSE I’d read on this site that converters don’t die…that they are KILLED.


So if I could get a cheap converter I’d prob be willing to pay that for labor

 

Belle, this is where I would start asking friends. See if someone your know is a back yard mechanic. It may be a bit difficult to get the catalytic converter to you, but I would say to ship it to a relative in a state other than California and then have them ship it in to California and then offer the friend a "bottle of something good" or say $100 to install the cat. A bunch of backyard mechanics would jump on that. You get the new cat installed for relatively cheap, they get a good drink.

 

Since I don’t live here, I don’t have any my-age friends. And not to be judge-y, but all of my daughter and sil’s friends are of an age where they pay others to do the work (remodels, gardening, cleaning) that most of us boomers did ourselves. ( I used to trade car help etc. for great dinners as I love to cook).

Now, I could even offer a trade for an oceanfront apartment
in Puerto Vallarta ( mine) during Xmas or May/June for 5 nights but I know of no one locally who could do it. (When I was trying to find a mechanic to replace plugs I already asked around for it. And this being the rear cat, wouldn’t they need to put the car up on a lift?

at this point I don’t even know if I can drive it to get it back here or have it towed again through insurance.

 

Belle, then I see 2 options then. You can invest the money into the car to keep what you like (and in the long run probably save you money) or you give up on the kitty and get yourself a newer vehicle and then have the car payment. I know the answer is not quite that simple, but the options are kinda limited. So, how much do you love the kitty?

 

So my first question is what did the mechanic use for replacement parts when he made the changes you requested? Did he use OEM parts or did he buy aftermarket parts or something other than OEM spark plugs? I know that aftermarket coils and aftermarket plugs Don’t usually work well as compared to the OEM equipment. You can use aftermarket hoses and belts, fuses and relays, water pumps, ps pumps, radiators, Batteries and brake pads fuel filters air filter etc. but when it comes to things like spark plugs and coils u got to have OEM (or you’re gonna have a bad day)

 

Agree partially, but disagree on some of this. There is nothing wrong with using quality parts for ignition items, such as plugs and coils, but ensure they are high quality and don't use multi contact plugs. As far as things like sensors etc. go, OEM is the way.

 

Colorado Belle start contacting the local Jaguar clubs or even any Euro car clubs. They will put you in contact with someone who can help you. This is doable.

I have done things to help people who are in my clubs from around the world.

 

UPDATE:

First, a big thank you to everyone who has offered help and advice!

I’ve had to take a bit of time to attend to other matters, but here’s where I am now:

last Tuesday, I went to the garage and got my car. Mechanic said I could drive it, but it would be loud. Then he wanted to put the O2 sensor back on because he said it could cause a fire.
I said no to that, because I knew I couldn’t drive the car anymore the way it was.

so I started out thinking that I could at least drive it to a nearby street parking place until I could think of what to do, but it actually had plenty of power tho I sounded like I was a drag car racer!!!!! I drove it to where I’m staying (3 miles) and it didn’t stall or get hot and NO FIRE.

so I now have time to get the cat and find someone to install it if I want to go that route.
But no wheels cramps my style,and though I don’t have or want a car in Puerto Vallarta where I spend 6 months of the year…I need one to get around here. Renting a car would be $1000/month. So I started looking for used cars for sale locally. Long/short, I found a 2008 BMW328i for sale nearby, owners moving back to Spain, talked to their mechanic and researched and bought it same day. It takes premium gas and synthetic is as $$$$ for maintenance, but the plan is to use it for the few months I’m here in Santa Barbara, store it for the winter, drive it next summer and then sell it at leisure for im thinking the same money that I’ll have in it. I’ve never really wanted a B MW, not into the status thing (got the Jag because in 2002 it was the best deal for an AWD manual trans.) But I do respect German cars, and tho it’s an automatic I’ll survive!

At this point, I really hate the idea of scrapping my Jag…it just doesn’t deserve it. I’m hoping that I can find a way to get a cat put in the kitty for little expense and then maybe find someone who wants to buy her and give her a good home.

Which leaves me with : has anyone used a replacement cat found online that SAYS it’s a direct fit . (eBay, partsgeek etc).

 

I had a bit of a browse on the net:
1. I have bought catalytic converters from BM Catalyst in Britain for my XJ8 - they were alright - but I checked, they offer nothing but a pipe to replace the cat for X-Types.
2, I found this on the net:
https://www.premierautoexhaust.com/p...set-2-5l-3-0l/
That sounds cheap. who knows, maybe they are OK? But it comes with the usual caveat: No shipping to CALIFORNIA.
I can only assume that all the garages in the border towns surrounding California get many Californian customers.

Regardless, if you go for those or and other cat:
Look at the pictures of the listing and compare with the cats on your car to decide, if those are the correct cats: Do all the connection points look the same?

 

Belle, something just hit me and it may be something to get you what you want. Call up the local high schools and colleges. A lot of them offer "automobile repair" classes and they are always looking for project cars. You may be able to talk with them and they may be able to possibly find you a used cat and then install it for you. IN a lot of cases, they are charging you just the cost of parts and maybe a little bit more. Yes, you are having newer mechanics working on your car, but there is normally an ASE certified mechanic that is the instructor that is overseeing things. Worst case it costs you a few hours of time calling some local schools. I know you have UCSB right there (great campus, got to go into the living area just off campus and there is a neat church there that you can then follow the trail down to the water front, but I digress). See what they say they would charge. They may be a bit more willing to put in a used part than most shops. Then you may have to find a local recycling yard or the school may have their connections.