Hi guys, didnt really know where to post this thread as there wasnt really a proper group for it so just decided to put it in here as I feel that I might get the best replies!

Anyways, so as mentionned in the New Members section I am doing some research for a project and I would like some information from you guys with regards to your opinion on various related topics that I will be looking at.

My research topic will focus on the e-type and as my research goes along you will see where the relation to the e-type will come in. Overall for a brief introduction though I am looking at the e type and how it is a British symbol and how this symbolism came about. The cars 50th anniversay as you know is being relived this year and this I find to be the perfect fit for my project as I love Jaguar and their automobiles.

For now though, I would just like to get a representation of what you guys think of the Jaguar brand today in terms of its overall position against Mercedes, BMW and its other competitors in comparison to how it was perceived in the 1950's and 1960's. Everyone will have their opinions and I would love to hear all of them and if possible if I could also get a reason for your opinion and genereally whatever you have to say then that would help me immensely.

Thanks a lot for your replies guys, I will make sure to reply to each of you individually either through personal message or within this topic.

 

Mario, I would tell you to first start looking at the facts of what you are trying to get at. For a research paper, a bunch of "this 'no-name' guy said this, she said that" is not going to cut it. You need facts and figures to substantiate what you are trying to prove. I would start with say finding out what percentage of E-types are still on the road in relation to how many BMW's or MB's from that same time frame. That will give you a playing field to start with. Then you can compare those same numbers to modern day cars (the BMW 3 series vs Jaguar X-Type, BMW 5 series vs S-Type, etc). From there you can start drawing lines of which brand has made the furthest advancements.

 

Hi Thermo, thank you very much for the reply. I have partly done what you have recommended with looking at various facts and figures of the time, but yes I agree with you it would be a good starting point to look at comparisons from perhaps the 60's – something I did not think of.

This actual part of my research (this question I am asking) is only for the introduction to say how the e-type really gave Jaguar its British symbolism and then through British Leyland, Fords and now Tata's acquisition, although the brand is and was popular, ultimately since Sir William Lyons let go of the company, it has never really regained that spark/buzz the e-type created.

The question I posted was mainly to do with people’s perceptions, I feel that everyone has a different perception of the company today and the really attached owners to the Jaguar brand will I believe have some knowledge of the company in the past when the e-type was around. So although I won’t be quoting people, I would just like to get an idea of people’s perceptions and then attach the facts and figures together to get an all encompassing picture.

Many thanks for your reply and if you have anything more that could help me then that would be greatly appreciated.

 

mario, I got into my Jag (03 X-Type) because of when I was a child, there was a person in town that drove an 80's Jag XJ. I always loved the lines of the car because it was so different and there was a certain bit of class that the car exuded that I didn't get the same feeling from other cars similar to it. So, I made it a promise to myself that one day I would own a Jag. We'll I have done that.

As for quality of past and present, what you will find is the Jags from the 60 (and even up into the 70's and 80's) had a different concept of how to do the electrical system. What I mean by this is that most american cars for example have what are called a "common ground" system. So, all the grounds to everything electrical returns to the battery via the ground of the car (consisting of the metal body of the car, the block of the motor, and/or the frame). Then the positive side of the power was run through a fuse block with individual wires going to each component so a single failure didn't take out the whole car. The early Jags used a slightly different though. They used a "common positive" setup. So, in this case, all the positive side of the power was run from a common wire (post located inside the engine bay normally) with the wires then running to the electrical component and then the returning power would go to a fuse box and then the fuse box was tied to the battery negative.

While there is some logic to this kind of system (power technically does flow from the negative of the battery to the positive, known as hole flow in the electrical world), most of the world was taught "Conventional current flow" which states that power flows from the positive to negative. Due to this different way of looking at the same thing, it lead to a lot of confusion for the backyard mechanic, therefore leading to the stigma of the electrical systems for these Jags being "complicated". They are very similar to most systems of the time, just have a different way of getting things done.

As for the modern day Jags, they use the same thought process as any other vehicle. So, some of the stigma of the electrical system has been relieved due to that simple switch. But then, with the mandating of common engine management systems inside the US (ECC-IV and the OBD series), wiring wise the cars are essentially identical to another models (the Jag X-Type and Ford Mondeo, the Jag X-Type and the Lincoln LS for example). The big reason for this matching of electrical systems is cost savings for the manufacturer.

As for quality, I think you will find the newer Jags have the same failure rate as any other vehicle out there. The bigger difference is the cost to maintain. While these cars are more expensive to maintain than a low level car, that is due to the technology put into the car. Face it, the braking system of a Jag is a much more fine tuned system than that from an econo-box vehicle. But then, one of the most expensive vehicles to maintain is the BMW 5 series, not a Jag. Do a lot of research on this aspect, but keep in mind, 90% of the statistics out there are made up or interpretted to mean what the writer wants (I love that quote). So, see what the majority of people say about the cars, not so much "this is the best, this is the worst". I can use the X-Type as a prime example. There are sites out there that say the X-Types is one of the "10 worst" cars out there due to the problems with the transfer case and repetitive problems. Yet, another one will say that it is a best buy. So, how bad is the car? This is where your judging criteria needs to be stated. Stating something like "repairs per 1,000 vehicles" or "average cost of a repair" can help put the vehicles on an even playing field.

Hope this helps.

 

Thermo thanks again, I will sit down and put everything I have together now and try and get some figures to compare. What you told me about the electrical system I did not know but it helps when trying to locate issues in which I can use to compare. Have to try and find figures now which might not be so easy, given it was a long time ago but lets see what I can dig out.

Many thanks for your help once again!

 

Mario-

I'll help with my own little story.

Growing up in the 50s and 60s, British cars were quite common here in Montreal, far more common than in the US. Many families had bog-standard four door or four seater Austins, Vauxhalls, Morris, Sunbeams etc. It was always a treat to see any two seater open top sports cars made by MG, Triumph or Austin Healey and every lad had Matchbox miniatures of each to treasure. Sighting of any Jaguar and in particular an E-type (XKE) would almost be like spotting a Bugatti Veyron today.

By comparison, US made muscle cars or sometimes Corvettes were seen as being unrefined boxes that neither turned nor stopped and were suitable only for the knuckle draggers.

I could never afford an E type (new or used) and had to 'make do' with a lowly Sunbeam Tiger as my first car but always held the Jaguar marque as being the epitome of style, class, performance and exclusivity.

Of course we know that Jag went through some dark days where reliability and performance were pushed aside. Nonetheless, I dreamed some day of owning something with a leaper on the hood. In the interim, I ended up with all sorts of new Mercs, Beemers and Audis all payed for by my employer, but none gave me any sort of satisfaction that I dreamed a Jaguar could.

Fast forward to the late 90s and early sketches of the 'new' S-type appeared. It was love at first sight and when the 2003 face lift appeared here, it was simply a matter of waiting for the right car to become available.

I've had mine for over 6 years and it's been everything I wished for and more. Being the most reliable car I've ever owned was an unexpected but welcome bonus. Plans are afoot to add an XK8 or XKR to finally get the two seater I dreamed of almost 50 years ago.

I still live in the small town where I grew up. There's tons of the aforementioned German cars around as well as Japanese or domestic luxury stuff. The only cars that turn heads are the Jags.

Some years ago, one of our taxi cab companies had a mixed fleet of Mercs, Audis and S-types. A customer could specify which car type he wanted to come pick him up. That Jags were requested by a margin of 3 to1 according to the owner.

That says it all.

Good luck with your project!

 

Personally I'd take an XF over a 5 series, E Class or A6, an XJ over an A8, S Class or 7 Series....XK over a 6 Series Coupe.

I prefer the Jaguar styling inside and out. Given that I don't race the Jag handling and performance are great as well. I drove an XF R recently. Just loved it! I'd definitely consider it over any of it's competitors.

 

All I know is that I would trade my first born (and 2nd...3rd...4th...so on) for one of these if they do in fact revive the E Type. Probably the prettiest concept car that isn't too outlandish that I've seen in ages:

 

Wait...What??????

My all time favorite car since I started driving is a Sunbeam Tiger!!!!!!!

Lowly......sheesh

Anyway, I have always has a soft spot for British cars, maybe because our daily driver in the late 50s early 60s was a Vauxhall, Part of my miss spent youth was in my buddies Austin American, maybe because my first car at 16 was an MG Midget (1962) because I couldn't afford a Sunbeam Tiger. In any case driving multiple MGs, Triumphs and even a couple of Discoveries I have developed strong sentiments towards them. At the pinnacle of British cars (attainable, subtracting Rolls and Bentleys) has been a Jag. But nobody ever would put Jaguar and dependable in the same sentence, probably not even the same book. Jaguar over and above all other British cars is tainted by the Lucas wiring un-trustworthy, leave you at the side of the road in ther rain paint brush. Still to this day, having driven one for a couple of years now, I tend to agree. My X has more unresolved issues, all of them electrical by the way, than any other car I have owned. And I've owned a lot of cars, probably triple or more the national average. Every day I get in my car it is a crap shoot whether or not some gremlin is going to pop out and force me to the side of the road. And Tata manufactured cars don't have it any easier. I had the car in at the dealer for one of the multple 'gearbo failure' warnings when I first got the car, I was sitting with a service guy and his phone rang. Hey excused himself answered it and went on to get yelled at and apologize profusely to the customer. The guy had just brought in his XJR, brand new for what the service guy said was an 'electrical issue' and was given the Managers XJR as a courtesy car, and the courtesy car developed the exact same electrical issue.

So, do I love my car...maybe love is too strong, I like it a lot, but the infatuation period is definately over. Would I still consider another Jaguar, maybe my old dream car which is the full load 2008 XJR or Super 8....hmmmm, I'm not so sure anymore. Would I recommend a Jaguar to a friend, or one of my kids, that is the real test of a car's dependability. Likely not, I can work on most anything on a car except electrical simply because with our cars it's TCM, ECM, DCS or some other acronym that is a pop out and replace type part, always over a grand and unless your a re a genious impossible to properly diagnose. What you read here more often than not is, my car through up these codes, what do you recommend. The replies are always try this first....never oh that a simple replace the whatever and you'll never see that issue again.

Do other cars have the same issues, maybe, I have the same year X5 with a few more Ks on the dial and have had to replace the Alternator, and a little fan module in it. BUT that was THE fix, not the first try to fix. I think that's where the failure as a company is in Jaguar. I'm not sure why it is either. Why is it that you can have a Merc, or a BMW, or an Infinite or Accura and when something goes wrong it is a do this to fix that? With our cars it's always I had that problem, I did this, then this, then this and the issue was resolved. Take my current issue in the weird thing happened thread, should I replace the battery? I'm going to because that seems to be the concensus of what I would try first and it does make sense, but why should a low battery, or an old battery throw multiple non related code lights and messages up, and no codes.

I know it is maybe not what you're looking for as a reply for your paper, but I think that is the crux of the issue with Jaguar. Are they beautiful cars, do you think of a oppulent type of car when you hear the name. Probably when you've never owned one yes. After a year can you with a clear conscience tell your daughter that it's a good buy, go get one and it is dependable enough to drive anywhere and not strand her.....I wouldn't. Are the new ones any better? Not from the mechanics or salepeople who will speak off the record.

 

Yes indeed that is one beautiful car. Hopefully it won't take 10 more years and cost $250,000 - so that I can afford one before another 50 years go by.

I've had Jag fever (E-types and XJ's) for 40+ years, and the X-type has been a great car.

For your research, check out Michael Kharesh / Truedelta - he's been on this board (and probably others) for years tracking model and brand reliability. - See the second quote below...

 

Guy’s thank you so much for your replies, the information on the electronics helps in trying to put together a picture of the brand today, so no worries every little bit helps!

The pictures posted look fabulous and I imagine if it can be developed to cost as much as a Carrera then I think it would have a lot of heads turning!

Anyways thanks a lot guys, will be back in touch soon with some more questions and discussions.. need to get writing now!