Problems again with battery cable?
#1
05-11-2021, 02:45 PM
Problems again with battery cable?
Hello gents-
I have 83k miles on my X type I got it with 50k miles 4 years ago and changed the battery cables the day I got it.......So the current cables have 30k miles on them/ 4 years.
I am experiencing a problem where the car won’t start at all sometimes. Eventually it does start and the battery light is on. I turn it of and re-start it and the light goes of for the rest of the day (typically)
Does this sound like battery cables again? I don’t mind replacing them again, but just wanted to get a feel about you guys thought about the cables going bad after 4 yrs/ 30k plus miles. Normal or unlikely ?
thanks
I have 83k miles on my X type I got it with 50k miles 4 years ago and changed the battery cables the day I got it.......So the current cables have 30k miles on them/ 4 years.
I am experiencing a problem where the car won’t start at all sometimes. Eventually it does start and the battery light is on. I turn it of and re-start it and the light goes of for the rest of the day (typically)
Does this sound like battery cables again? I don’t mind replacing them again, but just wanted to get a feel about you guys thought about the cables going bad after 4 yrs/ 30k plus miles. Normal or unlikely ?
thanks
#2
05-11-2021, 06:49 PM
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Spike, part of it is based on what products you use to clean the engine bay with, what gets spread on the roads during the winter, etc. In short, any sort of chloride or salt will raise havoc on copper cabling. I would say to let the car get cold from sitting over night, then in the morning, start it up and turn on the seat heaters, dash fan on high (A/C off), rear defroster, and headlights. Let the car idle for say 5-10 minutes that way. Turn off the electronics and then cup your hand over the battery terminals. See if you are getting a warm battery terminal. If yes, well, stuff happens. Granted, you could be dealing with a high resistance (we are talking about say a 0.2 ohm resistance here) on the connection where the starter is attached or where the 2 cables joint between the battery and the alternator. It doesn't take much of a resistance to cause hate and discontent when dealing with high amperage. A bit of time with a wire brush on a junction or two make fix your issue. If you have access to a FLIR camera, that would be useful to look over the wiring to see if you can spot any hot spots. Your local auto parts store may rent one.
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Spikepaga (05-11-2021)
#3
05-11-2021, 08:49 PM
Spike, part of it is based on what products you use to clean the engine bay with, what gets spread on the roads during the winter, etc. In short, any sort of chloride or salt will raise havoc on copper cabling. I would say to let the car get cold from sitting over night, then in the morning, start it up and turn on the seat heaters, dash fan on high (A/C off), rear defroster, and headlights. Let the car idle for say 5-10 minutes that way. Turn off the electronics and then cup your hand over the battery terminals. See if you are getting a warm battery terminal. If yes, well, stuff happens. Granted, you could be dealing with a high resistance (we are talking about say a 0.2 ohm resistance here) on the connection where the starter is attached or where the 2 cables joint between the battery and the alternator. It doesn't take much of a resistance to cause hate and discontent when dealing with high amperage. A bit of time with a wire brush on a junction or two make fix your issue. If you have access to a FLIR camera, that would be useful to look over the wiring to see if you can spot any hot spots. Your local auto parts store may rent one.
What is strange is that car will not turn on from cold sometimes. Like the starter is not being energized at all. So it’s not like it gets hot and then the light comes on, rather I will turn it from cold and either nothing happens or it comes on with the battery light on as well as the cruise control unavailable amber light on.
#4
05-12-2021, 10:02 AM
Battery Terminal Temperature
Spike, part of it is based on what products you use to clean the engine bay with, what gets spread on the roads during the winter, etc. In short, any sort of chloride or salt will raise havoc on copper cabling. I would say to let the car get cold from sitting over night, then in the morning, start it up and turn on the seat heaters, dash fan on high (A/C off), rear defroster, and headlights. Let the car idle for say 5-10 minutes that way. Turn off the electronics and then cup your hand over the battery terminals. See if you are getting a warm battery terminal. If yes, well, stuff happens. Granted, you could be dealing with a high resistance (we are talking about say a 0.2 ohm resistance here) on the connection where the starter is attached or where the 2 cables joint between the battery and the alternator. It doesn't take much of a resistance to cause hate and discontent when dealing with high amperage. A bit of time with a wire brush on a junction or two make fix your issue. If you have access to a FLIR camera, that would be useful to look over the wiring to see if you can spot any hot spots. Your local auto parts store may rent one.
The IR thermometers are inexpensive, about $18 everywhere.
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Spikepaga (05-14-2021)
#5
05-12-2021, 09:27 PM
Veteran Member
Hi Spikepaga,
It seems more likely that you are occasionally getting incorrect power somewhere interrupting the whole systems energizing/initializing process.
Bad battery cables or terminal contacts will generally pass voltage and low current fine to circuits that don't draw much. So I agree that the scenario you are conveying doesn't seem to point to battery cables as you don't seem to be getting to the high current stage of the start sequence.
As you roll the ignition key through Accessory, Run and Start, there are various relays being energized at each position to bring online the appropriate subsystems of the car.
Relays (being mechanical devices), when carrying heavier workload currents will naturally develop pitted contacts and measuring them sounds easy but often the true nature of the contact behaviour doesn't emerge until it is place under actual load.
I just had that issue with my X-Type's A/C relay which measured Ok on the bench, but had high resistance contacts under load stopping the clutch from pulling in properly. Same with my Toyota 4Runner rear tailgate window drive relays - intermittent as hell and made the regulator motor seem very weak when it did occasionally work....now it is a guillotine!
I see some initial relays of interest in the schematic, namely relay 5 and 13 (in the power distribution fuse box in the engine bay) and relay 2 is in the passenger junction fuse box ( front bulkhead LHS), which might be exhibiting some intermittent contact behaviour.
Possibly worth checking them out further to eliminate them as possible causes of your Cats Jekyll and Hyde persona, as one could be depriving some of your subsystems the juice needed from achieving the correct initialization sequence occasionally.
When relays go faulty they can be hit and miss as to whether they will work properly. Seems you have some start sequences that are perfect and others that fail.
Sometimes a light tap on the relay body with the handle of a screwdriver when the relay is initially activated will "jar" the contacts into seating better (as a test) without you having to replace them purely on spec.
So next time you have the issue, roll the key to Accessory and give Relay 2 (front bulkhead) a tap then roll key through to Run to see if the dash lights up normally then starts.
If it doesn't, try rolling to Run and quickly giving R2 and R13 a tap to see if you get some encouraging response.
You might need a second pair of hands as the timing of getting the relays to engage power might need to be fast otherwise module interlinking communications might be commenced too late and give you an error regardless.
The modules will have a expected time of comms establishment with each other.
Should be a pretty easy test to do (no parts required and access should be pretty good).
I am still studying the schematics as I learn the the "ins and outs" of my X in the pursuit of debugging it from years of neglect and misadventure by prior ownership.
Good luck with yours.
It seems more likely that you are occasionally getting incorrect power somewhere interrupting the whole systems energizing/initializing process.
Bad battery cables or terminal contacts will generally pass voltage and low current fine to circuits that don't draw much. So I agree that the scenario you are conveying doesn't seem to point to battery cables as you don't seem to be getting to the high current stage of the start sequence.
As you roll the ignition key through Accessory, Run and Start, there are various relays being energized at each position to bring online the appropriate subsystems of the car.
Relays (being mechanical devices), when carrying heavier workload currents will naturally develop pitted contacts and measuring them sounds easy but often the true nature of the contact behaviour doesn't emerge until it is place under actual load.
I just had that issue with my X-Type's A/C relay which measured Ok on the bench, but had high resistance contacts under load stopping the clutch from pulling in properly. Same with my Toyota 4Runner rear tailgate window drive relays - intermittent as hell and made the regulator motor seem very weak when it did occasionally work....now it is a guillotine!
I see some initial relays of interest in the schematic, namely relay 5 and 13 (in the power distribution fuse box in the engine bay) and relay 2 is in the passenger junction fuse box ( front bulkhead LHS), which might be exhibiting some intermittent contact behaviour.
Possibly worth checking them out further to eliminate them as possible causes of your Cats Jekyll and Hyde persona, as one could be depriving some of your subsystems the juice needed from achieving the correct initialization sequence occasionally.
When relays go faulty they can be hit and miss as to whether they will work properly. Seems you have some start sequences that are perfect and others that fail.
Sometimes a light tap on the relay body with the handle of a screwdriver when the relay is initially activated will "jar" the contacts into seating better (as a test) without you having to replace them purely on spec.
So next time you have the issue, roll the key to Accessory and give Relay 2 (front bulkhead) a tap then roll key through to Run to see if the dash lights up normally then starts.
If it doesn't, try rolling to Run and quickly giving R2 and R13 a tap to see if you get some encouraging response.
You might need a second pair of hands as the timing of getting the relays to engage power might need to be fast otherwise module interlinking communications might be commenced too late and give you an error regardless.
The modules will have a expected time of comms establishment with each other.
Should be a pretty easy test to do (no parts required and access should be pretty good).
I am still studying the schematics as I learn the the "ins and outs" of my X in the pursuit of debugging it from years of neglect and misadventure by prior ownership.
Good luck with yours.
The following 2 users liked this post by h2o2steam:
Spikepaga (05-14-2021),
TypeXPersonality (05-13-2021)
#6
05-14-2021, 12:36 PM
Thanks everyone for your replies. Seems like the problem I am having is the starter solenoid attached to the starter. I am trying to figure out at this point if I should replace the starter or just try to get a new solenoid. I will probably go with a new Bosch starter since they are under 200 dollars.
thanks
thanks
#7
05-18-2021, 07:18 PM
Hey gents.
cables are not getting hot. After turning putting a heavy load on the car.....As I mentioned earlier I replaced them 30k miles ago when I got the car.
the car would not start the other day, and I tapped the solenoid on the starter and she started right away. I think I am going to go that way, replacing the starter with a new Bosch unit..... I wish I could find a genuine bosh solenoid, as the mechanical part of the starter is solid, but all I can find online are aftermarket China solenoids..., and at 170 for a new Bosch stater it’s not too much of a loss I guess
cables are not getting hot. After turning putting a heavy load on the car.....As I mentioned earlier I replaced them 30k miles ago when I got the car.
the car would not start the other day, and I tapped the solenoid on the starter and she started right away. I think I am going to go that way, replacing the starter with a new Bosch unit..... I wish I could find a genuine bosh solenoid, as the mechanical part of the starter is solid, but all I can find online are aftermarket China solenoids..., and at 170 for a new Bosch stater it’s not too much of a loss I guess
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#9
05-19-2021, 06:39 PM
Hi Spikepaga,
It seems more likely that you are occasionally getting incorrect power somewhere interrupting the whole systems energizing/initializing process.
Bad battery cables or terminal contacts will generally pass voltage and low current fine to circuits that don't draw much. So I agree that the scenario you are conveying doesn't seem to point to battery cables as you don't seem to be getting to the high current stage of the start sequence.
As you roll the ignition key through Accessory, Run and Start, there are various relays being energized at each position to bring online the appropriate subsystems of the car.
Relays (being mechanical devices), when carrying heavier workload currents will naturally develop pitted contacts and measuring them sounds easy but often the true nature of the contact behaviour doesn't emerge until it is place under actual load.
I just had that issue with my X-Type's A/C relay which measured Ok on the bench, but had high resistance contacts under load stopping the clutch from pulling in properly. Same with my Toyota 4Runner rear tailgate window drive relays - intermittent as hell and made the regulator motor seem very weak when it did occasionally work....now it is a guillotine!
I see some initial relays of interest in the schematic, namely relay 5 and 13 (in the power distribution fuse box in the engine bay) and relay 2 is in the passenger junction fuse box ( front bulkhead LHS), which might be exhibiting some intermittent contact behaviour.
Possibly worth checking them out further to eliminate them as possible causes of your Cats Jekyll and Hyde persona, as one could be depriving some of your subsystems the juice needed from achieving the correct initialization sequence occasionally.
When relays go faulty they can be hit and miss as to whether they will work properly. Seems you have some start sequences that are perfect and others that fail.
Sometimes a light tap on the relay body with the handle of a screwdriver when the relay is initially activated will "jar" the contacts into seating better (as a test) without you having to replace them purely on spec.
So next time you have the issue, roll the key to Accessory and give Relay 2 (front bulkhead) a tap then roll key through to Run to see if the dash lights up normally then starts.
If it doesn't, try rolling to Run and quickly giving R2 and R13 a tap to see if you get some encouraging response.
You might need a second pair of hands as the timing of getting the relays to engage power might need to be fast otherwise module interlinking communications might be commenced too late and give you an error regardless.
The modules will have a expected time of comms establishment with each other.
Should be a pretty easy test to do (no parts required and access should be pretty good).
I am still studying the schematics as I learn the the "ins and outs" of my X in the pursuit of debugging it from years of neglect and misadventure by prior ownership.
Good luck with yours.
It seems more likely that you are occasionally getting incorrect power somewhere interrupting the whole systems energizing/initializing process.
Bad battery cables or terminal contacts will generally pass voltage and low current fine to circuits that don't draw much. So I agree that the scenario you are conveying doesn't seem to point to battery cables as you don't seem to be getting to the high current stage of the start sequence.
As you roll the ignition key through Accessory, Run and Start, there are various relays being energized at each position to bring online the appropriate subsystems of the car.
Relays (being mechanical devices), when carrying heavier workload currents will naturally develop pitted contacts and measuring them sounds easy but often the true nature of the contact behaviour doesn't emerge until it is place under actual load.
I just had that issue with my X-Type's A/C relay which measured Ok on the bench, but had high resistance contacts under load stopping the clutch from pulling in properly. Same with my Toyota 4Runner rear tailgate window drive relays - intermittent as hell and made the regulator motor seem very weak when it did occasionally work....now it is a guillotine!
I see some initial relays of interest in the schematic, namely relay 5 and 13 (in the power distribution fuse box in the engine bay) and relay 2 is in the passenger junction fuse box ( front bulkhead LHS), which might be exhibiting some intermittent contact behaviour.
Possibly worth checking them out further to eliminate them as possible causes of your Cats Jekyll and Hyde persona, as one could be depriving some of your subsystems the juice needed from achieving the correct initialization sequence occasionally.
When relays go faulty they can be hit and miss as to whether they will work properly. Seems you have some start sequences that are perfect and others that fail.
Sometimes a light tap on the relay body with the handle of a screwdriver when the relay is initially activated will "jar" the contacts into seating better (as a test) without you having to replace them purely on spec.
So next time you have the issue, roll the key to Accessory and give Relay 2 (front bulkhead) a tap then roll key through to Run to see if the dash lights up normally then starts.
If it doesn't, try rolling to Run and quickly giving R2 and R13 a tap to see if you get some encouraging response.
You might need a second pair of hands as the timing of getting the relays to engage power might need to be fast otherwise module interlinking communications might be commenced too late and give you an error regardless.
The modules will have a expected time of comms establishment with each other.
Should be a pretty easy test to do (no parts required and access should be pretty good).
I am still studying the schematics as I learn the the "ins and outs" of my X in the pursuit of debugging it from years of neglect and misadventure by prior ownership.
Good luck with yours.
I was set on getting a starter, but I decided to play about with the R5 and R7 and removing either seems to mimic the problem I am having. I have placed two of those in order and see if that fixes my problem.
thanks
#10
05-26-2021, 06:06 PM
Well , I changed all 3 70 amp Relays that may have to do with starting the car, and still in the same problem.
Back at looking at the starter solenoid. I am just going to replace the entire starter. The new Bosch or the remanufactured Motorcraft ones I am looking at are around 170-200 dollars. No sense trying to pinch pennies by replacing just the solenoid.
I am leaning towards the Motorcraft rebuild part instead of the Bosch. I have been told the Motorcraft reman part is superior.
#11
05-26-2021, 06:54 PM
Veteran Member
I know I've read for years here and elsewhere that the starter on X's rarely fail. That being said, I know the dealer in NJ where I bought mine in '17 (mine's an '06) had put a new one on mine before I purchased it. I never paid any attention to the brand they used in being under the car numerous times in the first few months I owned it doing mechanical work and fluid changes.
#12
05-27-2021, 02:41 PM
I know I've read for years here and elsewhere that the starter on X's rarely fail. That being said, I know the dealer in NJ where I bought mine in '17 (mine's an '06) had put a new one on mine before I purchased it. I never paid any attention to the brand they used in being under the car numerous times in the first few months I owned it doing mechanical work and fluid changes.
The Motorcraft starter has been ordered. I do hope this solves my problem. The occasions when no response is coming from turning the key are becoming more and more frequent.
#13
05-30-2021, 02:55 PM
thanks Dell. I have seen other posts in my exhaustive searches where starters do go bad. Probably not the brushes or the mechanism itself, but rather the solenoids.
The Motorcraft starter has been ordered. I do hope this solves my problem. The occasions when no response is coming from turning the key are becoming more and more frequent.
The Motorcraft starter has been ordered. I do hope this solves my problem. The occasions when no response is coming from turning the key are becoming more and more frequent.
#15
06-08-2021, 02:56 PM
I paid 20 dollars for an aftermarket hose on eBay..
so new Motorcraft starter in, new relays, same problem.
Nothing happens when I turn the key at all, no noise, nothing. Have to count to 20 take out the key and try again and then it comes on as normal.
#16
06-08-2021, 03:48 PM
While testing the starting today :
On one occasion now the car started and immediately shut down with GEARBOX FAULT message. Turned it on again and message was gone
On one occasion the car came on but with CRUISE NOT AVAILABLE message . Turned on and of and message was gone.
What sensor is this causing my problems? I would like to figure it out before things get worse
any help GREATLY APPRECIATED
EDIT: the problem does not manifest while driving. ONLY at start up.
On one occasion now the car started and immediately shut down with GEARBOX FAULT message. Turned it on again and message was gone
On one occasion the car came on but with CRUISE NOT AVAILABLE message . Turned on and of and message was gone.
What sensor is this causing my problems? I would like to figure it out before things get worse
any help GREATLY APPRECIATED
EDIT: the problem does not manifest while driving. ONLY at start up.
Last edited by Spikepaga; 06-08-2021 at 03:52 PM.
#17
06-08-2021, 04:17 PM
Veteran Member
Man, you got me. I've no guidance suggestion. Maybe, and I cringe saying maybe a dealer could connect their diagnostics and Maybe you could mimic the problem while connected up. The down side is cost, mimicking the fault, time, effort, mental anguish...
Last edited by Dell Gailey; 06-08-2021 at 04:52 PM.
#18
06-08-2021, 04:38 PM
Veteran Member
#19
06-08-2021, 10:27 PM
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#20
06-10-2021, 09:41 AM
I think the ignition switch and tumbler are next in my list. This may be my imagination but I think the car starts or does not depending on how the key is positioned. (Deeper in or a little removed)