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Spike, the test for that is to simply roll the key to the START position and when it doesn't start, hold it in the START position and then move the key around. If you find that the starter tries to engage every now and then, BINGO.
Spike, the test for that is to simply roll the key to the START position and when it doesn't start, hold it in the START position and then move the key around. If you find that the starter tries to engage every now and then, BINGO.
YES it does. Precisely that. Are you thinking tumbler or ignition switch?
Ok guys , I haven’t received the ignition switch yet, but if the car Is always turning on right away when I push the key deep in, doesn’t that actually point to the tumbler/barrel?
I know Thermo is a good electrician, but I guess I am wondering now if the tumbler or the little wafers inside are all loose?
EDIT: NEW SYMPTOM: the car spontaneously died today as I was driving. I guess (hope) that confirms a faulty ignition switch versus the tumbler. No check engine, no lights on. Just like the car magically turned of in the middle of driving. And I have been fiddling with pushing the key in further trying to test the car and get it to start, so I probably finished destroying the switch. YIKES
EDIT2 : ANOTHER NEW SYMPTOM: car just cranked with key pushed in and then immediately died. YIKES AGAIN. Probably need to take the E type or the XJS out until the new switch comes in
Spike, the tumbler is completely mechanical in nature. The ignition switch is all electrical. The tumbler has a tab that sticks out that will rotate the ignition switch. Pushing against the tumbler will push against the ignition switch and cause the internals of the ignition switch to move slightly, leading to the various indications that you are seeing. In short, you are squishing the ignition switch between the tumbler and the steering column.
Spike, the tumbler is completely mechanical in nature. The ignition switch is all electrical. The tumbler has a tab that sticks out that will rotate the ignition switch. Pushing against the tumbler will push against the ignition switch and cause the internals of the ignition switch to move slightly, leading to the various indications that you are seeing. In short, you are squishing the ignition switch between the tumbler and the steering column.
thanks man. That’s reassuring and probably self evident to an electrical guy like yourself but no so much for me. I am pretty confident at this point that the new switch will solve my problems.
Looking at the switch it appears to me that just the tip of the tibbe key inserts into the switch and is allowed to rotate on the "tumbler" portion of the key allowing it. So what Thermo said about pushing the key in kinda makes sense that it causing "pressure" on some part or component in the switch that's failing.
EDIT: So I watched a video on several different Ford models experiencing your problem and my comment of tibbe key fitting into the switch might be wrong and misleading. Nearly every video showed the electronic switch on the opposite side of the steering wheel from the ignition switch and some portion of the "tumbler" lock assembly is what fits into the ignition switch. Funny part was either the bad switches "wiggled" = had play in place or the place where the barrel/key attaches to switch was rounded out from use. AND IF I WAS SMART enough to read and absorb Thermo's last post he says exactly this. Smfh...
Don't know now if the following paragraph applies.
Having never had to do this, my assumption is you still need to remove the tumblers to access the switch. Here is a video of how to do that. I would also ASSUME the switch has air bag power connections which you for sure need to disconnect the battery and still be careful manipulating. They are normally yellow colored.
Do you guys think this will affect the security pellet working in/on the new switch from the existing fob? Will it require sds or wdd level programming?
Do you guys think this will affect the security pellet working in/on the new switch from the existing fob? Will it require sds or wdd level programming?
idk man. Like, I can’t imagine changing the switch is going to cause a problem because it’s totally separate sensor or unit. But we will all find out soon lmaoo
The reason I say that is over the years there's been discussion of the "ring" in the ignition that reads the rfid pellet. That pic looks like maybe that's the "ring" spoken about?
Here's one of the explanations =
info used by the car manufacturers.
Basically there is a tiny security code integrated circuit chip (eeprom) embedded in the plastic/rubber handle of the key. It is a passive electronics device that uses the RF energy emitted by the car security transponder reader to power the circuit. It is very similar to the RFID tags used by stores for theft protection (Loss Control ?). This security chip is read by the security reader module in the steering column. It has an antenna that is in the plastic/rubber ring around the ignition key slot in the steering column.
When the key is placed in the ignition and the key is rotated to the "Start" position the security reader reads the code in the security chip on the key. This is why you DO NOT want the other keys near the steering column when you are starting the car or programming the key fobs. The reader can pickup other key security codes if they are too close to the Ignition Switch and get confused and possibly placing the car in the "Immobilized" "NoStart" mode.
The other argument I would posit is the ring reads the pellet and the "correct code" is stored elsewhere (ECM) that has to match the pellet?
Last edited by Dell Gailey; 06-12-2021 at 10:01 PM.
The reason I say that is over the years there's been discussion of the "ring" in the ignition that reads the rfid pellet. That pic looks like maybe that's the "ring" spoken about?
Here's one of the explanations =
info used by the car manufacturers.
Basically there is a tiny security code integrated circuit chip (eeprom) embedded in the plastic/rubber handle of the key. It is a passive electronics device that uses the RF energy emitted by the car security transponder reader to power the circuit. It is very similar to the RFID tags used by stores for theft protection (Loss Control ?). This security chip is read by the security reader module in the steering column. It has an antenna that is in the plastic/rubber ring around the ignition key slot in the steering column.
When the key is placed in the ignition and the key is rotated to the "Start" position the security reader reads the code in the security chip on the key. This is why you DO NOT want the other keys near the steering column when you are starting the car or programming the key fobs. The reader can pickup other key security codes if they are too close to the Ignition Switch and get confused and possibly placing the car in the "Immobilized" "NoStart" mode.
The other argument I would posit is the ring reads the pellet and the "correct code" is stored elsewhere (ECM) that has to match the pellet?
Well, I do carry the spare key and my AirPod case in my keychain, along with my tiny Mark 2…..I would hope that’s not causing interference. I doubt it
Do you guys think this will affect the security pellet working in/on the new switch from the existing fob? Will it require sds or wdd level programming?
The ONLY thing that the "security pellet" interacts with is this
Replacing the ignition switch itself should have no effect on the security/starting of the car. All that is handled by the ring that is shown. Like was mentioned, you will want to disconnect the battery prior to starting all this, but you will in short pull the tumbler out of the steering wheel, open up the steering column itself, access the ignition switch, replace, then reverse the process to get things all back together.
Hello friends, in anticipation or receiving the new part I went ahead and removed the old ignition switch.
there is no need to remove the tumbler at all if all you are replacing is the switch itself. It can be disconnected and removed from the opposite of the column :
It’s definitely a Ford part that came out and even though I don’t have the new switch in my hands, it’s with 99.99 percent certainty the one I ordered: Motorcraft SW6958. It’s 60 dollars.
It took 10 minutes to remove. I played around with turning the key to see if the protruding part of the tumbler was turning accordingly, and it was. So I am very hopeful this switch is at fault. Specially because it is such a common failure switch in Ford models.
new switch in. Car started twice. By the third stop same thing. Same failure mode
so far I have
NEW STARTER
NEW RELAYS
NEW IGNITION SWITCH
POLISHED ALL GROUNDS TO BARE METAL (BATTERY AND ALL 4 GROUNDS IN FRONT PF HEADLAMPS)
So, maybe the tumbler is loose? Not turning properly? I am thinking it’s the tumbler.
I don’t want to rekey the door and glovebox. Is there anyone who I can send my tumbler for quick diagnosis and repair or just order a new tumbler with my key code?
EDIT: 10 back to back successful starts by not pushing key in too deep and then another start, immediately died ……..SIGH. I may have ruined the tumbler trying to get the car to start. But it certainly is still directly connected to how the key, I think
Read some other posts where the key was so worn it caused this problem. If that happened to be the case, you can have just the tibbe key cut and replace the worn one retaining the fob w/pellet.
The guys above say they can do cutting, lock and ignition repair, programming (if a complete key needed) on premise.
The video I posted above mentioned the person (he's a locksmith) he uses to rebuild the what he calls "wafers" (assuming he hasn't the equipment or knowledge) in Jag locks but, it's in Detroit.
06-10-2021, 11:59 AM
