Which rotors and pads
#21
11-25-2008, 07:15 PM
RE: Which rotors and pads
ORIGINAL: paul11117606
Hi Mark, let us all know how that works out. I think it depends how you drive also, if ones wife beats the **** out of your jag around town thats one thing, i'm never in a hurry really and drive like a old lady. so donts really needs no stinking drilled and slotted anything.
Hi Mark, let us all know how that works out. I think it depends how you drive also, if ones wife beats the **** out of your jag around town thats one thing, i'm never in a hurry really and drive like a old lady. so donts really needs no stinking drilled and slotted anything.
#23
11-26-2008, 10:09 PM
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: Which rotors and pads
ORIGINAL: BuckMR2
A kid could run out at anytime though
ORIGINAL: paul11117606
Hi Mark, let us all know how that works out. I think it depends how you drive also, if ones wife beats the **** out of your jag around town thats one thing, i'm never in a hurry really and drive like a old lady. so donts really needs no stinking drilled and slotted anything.
Hi Mark, let us all know how that works out. I think it depends how you drive also, if ones wife beats the **** out of your jag around town thats one thing, i'm never in a hurry really and drive like a old lady. so donts really needs no stinking drilled and slotted anything.
Perhaps beyond that, the manufacturers use good appropriate steel for this premium discs and that makes them work well also.
BUT ............. if you have a kid run out in front of you.. you had better not be at the point wherea dimple or slot makes the difference. if your brakes are so hot and would otherwise fade, you should not be within 20 miles of a kid.
What you need for kids running out is good hard COLD brake bite. you need HIGH FRICTION pads, lightening reflexes.. good low viscosity brake fluid that makes the ABS work best... AND the training to control the car under maximum braking and steer to avoid impact.
If you are relying on dimples or slots to save the kid... forget it.
LOL?
#24
11-27-2008, 03:19 PM
RE: Which rotors and pads
The manufacturers use of good appropriate steel (with plenty left on the discs too) did absolutely no good before I changed my discs (the dealer couldnt undertstand why the braking was poor yet the Jaguar pads and discs had"many thousands of miles left on them".Braking had to be done well in advance,distance to car infront increasedand speeds kept low in the odd instance when the car had to be used until the new brakes arrived)to the dimpled/slotted...it absolutely transformed the stopping.
Re should not be within 20 miles of a kid with hot brakes......an example...what if you have been horsing around empty country lanes or down long fast roads and your brakes get hot...you then enter a village and are within the speed limits and a kid runs out between 2 cars...I know I would stop MUCH quicker with my current brakes than I would in the crap standard discs that were on the car before the change.Even better with the virtually fade resistantceramicpads.
Next JagI get the first job no matter what is left on the brakes that it comes with will be to get theEBC Dimpled/Slotted discsand the ceramic pads.Peace of mind is priceless especially with a 12 year old son,wife who obviously is a bit older than that and a 13 month old baby girl, I woudnt sleep at night with standard discs/pads.
Re should not be within 20 miles of a kid with hot brakes......an example...what if you have been horsing around empty country lanes or down long fast roads and your brakes get hot...you then enter a village and are within the speed limits and a kid runs out between 2 cars...I know I would stop MUCH quicker with my current brakes than I would in the crap standard discs that were on the car before the change.Even better with the virtually fade resistantceramicpads.
Next JagI get the first job no matter what is left on the brakes that it comes with will be to get theEBC Dimpled/Slotted discsand the ceramic pads.Peace of mind is priceless especially with a 12 year old son,wife who obviously is a bit older than that and a 13 month old baby girl, I woudnt sleep at night with standard discs/pads.
#25
11-28-2008, 07:20 AM
Veteran Member
RE: Which rotors and pads
not that avoiding running over small children is not of utmost concern, but I'm quite happy that my EBC's just produce waaaaaaay less brake dust to clean. Call me shallow.....
I agree with Buck, it is night and day, and it really is not an expensive upgrade at all. No brainer IMHO...
I agree with Buck, it is night and day, and it really is not an expensive upgrade at all. No brainer IMHO...
#26
11-28-2008, 11:57 AM
#27
11-28-2008, 02:22 PM
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: Which rotors and pads
I still dont think that you need dimples or slots to stop well.
THe times when you are actually benefitting from the dimples or slots is when you would otherwise be overheated on flat rotors. if you are driving at the limit of the car.. in a situation where a kid's life depends on the small dimples on a disc.. then you are totally totally out of control. There is not one situation in driving on public roads where you would save a kid's life with a dimple.
I am not saying your brakes are not great. I am saying that the reason they are great has nothing to do with the dimples. if the exact same rotor from EBC just without the dimples and slots. The ability of the pad to grip on the rotor would not be any different. (perhaps better on a continuous smooth disc)
I also bought my jag with brakes that were HORRIBLE... absolutely dangerous. just like you described. I changed the disc to drilled ones,,, and put red-stuff pads.
they were only slightly better. with the new pads and discs. I drove for an entire year thinking that the x type hasjust plain crappy brakes.
Then i gave it one more shot and bought factory pads and discs.
the transformation was unbelievable. the car now stops properly.
The point of this story is that you cant compare how a non-functioning brake set up works vs a well functioning set up.
If you want to make a fair comparison, then please drive a car with GOOD factory brakes compared to yours.
THe times when you are actually benefitting from the dimples or slots is when you would otherwise be overheated on flat rotors. if you are driving at the limit of the car.. in a situation where a kid's life depends on the small dimples on a disc.. then you are totally totally out of control. There is not one situation in driving on public roads where you would save a kid's life with a dimple.
I am not saying your brakes are not great. I am saying that the reason they are great has nothing to do with the dimples. if the exact same rotor from EBC just without the dimples and slots. The ability of the pad to grip on the rotor would not be any different. (perhaps better on a continuous smooth disc)
I also bought my jag with brakes that were HORRIBLE... absolutely dangerous. just like you described. I changed the disc to drilled ones,,, and put red-stuff pads.
they were only slightly better. with the new pads and discs. I drove for an entire year thinking that the x type hasjust plain crappy brakes.
Then i gave it one more shot and bought factory pads and discs.
the transformation was unbelievable. the car now stops properly.
The point of this story is that you cant compare how a non-functioning brake set up works vs a well functioning set up.
If you want to make a fair comparison, then please drive a car with GOOD factory brakes compared to yours.
#28
11-28-2008, 03:32 PM
RE: Which rotors and pads
ORIGINAL: bojangles
I still dont think that you need dimples or slots to stop well.
THe times when you are actually benefitting from the dimples or slots is when you would otherwise be overheated on flat rotors. if you are driving at the limit of the car.. in a situation where a kid's life depends on the small dimples on a disc.. then you are totally totally out of control. There is not one situation in driving on public roads where you would save a kid's life with a dimple.
I still dont think that you need dimples or slots to stop well.
THe times when you are actually benefitting from the dimples or slots is when you would otherwise be overheated on flat rotors. if you are driving at the limit of the car.. in a situation where a kid's life depends on the small dimples on a disc.. then you are totally totally out of control. There is not one situation in driving on public roads where you would save a kid's life with a dimple.
So lets say (just for the sake of debunking your own absolute) that you are traveling down a steep grade, following the speed limit, and you have several hundred yards of visibility. In front of you, a ball bounces into the street and child follows it. You step on the brakes and stop with plenty of time to spare. As you resume your travel, thankful that your brakes did their job, it happens again. You stop again. Moments later it happens again. Lets say it keeps happening. Lets say it keeps happening enough that your brakes get very hot.... and the last time, the only reason they work is because they've got dimples and slots.
I know this seems ridiculous, because it was meant to. I only want to illustrate that you cannot say on the one hand that something helps your brakes work better, and then on the other hand say there is no way you'd ever need that. Those two statements are, in all practicality, contradictory.
ORIGINAL: bojangles
I am not saying your brakes are not great. I am saying that the reason they are great has nothing to do with the dimples. if the exact same rotor from EBC just without the dimples and slots. The ability of the pad to grip on the rotor would not be any different. (perhaps better on a continuous smooth disc)
I am not saying your brakes are not great. I am saying that the reason they are great has nothing to do with the dimples. if the exact same rotor from EBC just without the dimples and slots. The ability of the pad to grip on the rotor would not be any different. (perhaps better on a continuous smooth disc)
ORIGINAL: bojangles
I also bought my jag with brakes that were HORRIBLE... absolutely dangerous. just like you described. I changed the disc to drilled ones,,, and put red-stuff pads.
they were only slightly better. with the new pads and discs. I drove for an entire year thinking that the x type hasjust plain crappy brakes.
Then i gave it one more shot and bought factory pads and discs.
the transformation was unbelievable. the car now stops properly.
The point of this story is that you cant compare how a non-functioning brake set up works vs a well functioning set up.
If you want to make a fair comparison, then please drive a car with GOOD factory brakes compared to yours.
I also bought my jag with brakes that were HORRIBLE... absolutely dangerous. just like you described. I changed the disc to drilled ones,,, and put red-stuff pads.
they were only slightly better. with the new pads and discs. I drove for an entire year thinking that the x type hasjust plain crappy brakes.
Then i gave it one more shot and bought factory pads and discs.
the transformation was unbelievable. the car now stops properly.
The point of this story is that you cant compare how a non-functioning brake set up works vs a well functioning set up.
If you want to make a fair comparison, then please drive a car with GOOD factory brakes compared to yours.
I think you just like to argue, and you like to be right.
I can relate to both.
But I'll admit that I enjoy it more with you somehow. [sm=chairshot.gif]
#29
11-28-2008, 03:36 PM
RE: Which rotors and pads
I think the reason that the standard Jagtype factory brakes are so poor is that they were taken straight over without any modification from the lighter Ford Mondeo Mk3 in which they worked.The X type is a much heavier car on introduction with awd but the brakes were from the lighterFWD Mondeo.
Maybe Jag changed to fitting greenstuff as std after concerns with original brakes, I dont knowand am only guessing and/or maybe after 2004 when they changed the design it was also related?
Maybe bojangles the factory replacements on yours werethe improved Jag (ebc) fitment brakes or maybe your car is a later than 2004 model??
[edited-spelled fed instead of fwd]
Maybe Jag changed to fitting greenstuff as std after concerns with original brakes, I dont knowand am only guessing and/or maybe after 2004 when they changed the design it was also related?
Maybe bojangles the factory replacements on yours werethe improved Jag (ebc) fitment brakes or maybe your car is a later than 2004 model??
[edited-spelled fed instead of fwd]
#30
11-28-2008, 03:51 PM
RE: Which rotors and pads
ORIGINAL: McJaguar
Having additional 'edge' creates greater 'bite'. Not additional surface area.
Having additional 'edge' creates greater 'bite'. Not additional surface area.
The dimples are concaved thus providing extra surface areathan flat standard discs, and the edges of the grooves leading into the groove from the disc surface also add to the surface area that standard discs dont have, so giving bigger surface area and therefore more cooling.
Also the grooves lead right to the edge of the disc allowing hot air/gas to escapemore easily which also aids cooling, rather than be absorbedmore quickly into a flat disc.
[edited-added discs after dimpled]
#31
11-28-2008, 07:17 PM
RE: Which rotors and pads
ORIGINAL: BuckMR2
McJaguar, as well as the additional bite, the slotted/dimpled discs actually do have a greater surface area.
The dimples are concaved thus providing extra surface areathan flat standard discs, and the edges of the grooves leading into the groove from the disc surface also add to the surface area that standard discs dont have, so giving bigger surface area and therefore more cooling.
Also the grooves lead right to the edge of the disc allowing hot air/gas to escapemore easily which also aids cooling, rather than be absorbedmore quickly into a flat disc.
[edited-added discs after dimpled]
ORIGINAL: McJaguar
Having additional 'edge' creates greater 'bite'. Not additional surface area.
Having additional 'edge' creates greater 'bite'. Not additional surface area.
The dimples are concaved thus providing extra surface areathan flat standard discs, and the edges of the grooves leading into the groove from the disc surface also add to the surface area that standard discs dont have, so giving bigger surface area and therefore more cooling.
Also the grooves lead right to the edge of the disc allowing hot air/gas to escapemore easily which also aids cooling, rather than be absorbedmore quickly into a flat disc.
[edited-added discs after dimpled]
My point remains true, with the addition of the excellent and accurate comments you've made.
#32
11-29-2008, 08:14 AM
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: Which rotors and pads
holy cow ..
disc brakes are FRICTION BRAKES... they work by using friction and taking the energy of the moving car and turning it into heat. The edges of the dimples or slots do not provide braking by digging into the pads. if you take a pad and a sharp edge, you will see that they cut fairly easily. The action of a cheese grater would barely slow your car.... just eat the pads down to nothing in a second ortwo. The edges of the dimples or grooves have no effect on braking or "bite" The Bite of a pad is a term that relates to the coefficient of friction ofpad. a pad with cold bite will have high friction at low tems. racing pads need to be warmed up to have any bite at all. they only develop friction when they are hot. They can be quite dangerous on the street. BMW uses some of the grippiest Cold Bite pads they can find. They haul a car to a stop super fast.
Surface areaon your brakes has two functions..
First for Friction, (braking Force=normal force times coefficient)the area does not change the braking force directly but a larger contact surface will spread out the heat build up and keep the coeffecient from chaning due to sudden heat build up. In this case, more surface should be better.
Secondly, more disck area should help conduct the heat generared into the steel of the disc. There is some racing benefit to the holes that claim to use the space of the dimples to capture gasses that are generated when you brake VERY hard. this can happen as a chemical reaction when you get the brakes nearly red-hot on the track.
as far as driving downhill till your brakes are one stop away from overheating.... you as the driver are 100% responsible for the safe operation of your car. You are required to be sensible enough to pull over, or slow downwell before the brakes overheat. if 7 hard stops from 100km/h will kill the brakes,, you need to stop driving after 4 stops OR slow down to 50 km/hr where you can do 20 hard stops. It is not a game of chance out there.
As much as I am "argueing" I am writing this to challenge the general preceptions out there about brakes. It is important to me that people dont fall prey to marketing and make decisions based on sound logic etc. My problem here is that I am too lazy to type forever to make everything perfectly clear. I am suffering from a communication problem.. and sorry if it comes across as agumentative.
My brakes when I got the car were Terrible they were factory brakes and they were not working as they should. they did not represent how factory brakes should be. I dont know why they did not work. I (just like Buck ) asumed that Jag was crap. (I dont however think that the jag engineers forgot check the weight of their car when selecting brakes from the mondeo - that is kinda ridiculous to think - HEHHE) .
I bought red-stuff pads (well recommended) and el-cheapo drilled rotors from a local guy that sold them to me for 50 bucks each. They were barely better.... as I said. I dont for a second think that Bucks EBC set up was the same as my set up here. I could not believe that the red-stuff pads were bad, and I never thought that type of steel on the disc would affect the braking very much. At this point I really thought that Jag's brakes were just a rotten design. Also I have only driven BMW for 20 years, and always had great COLD BITE on every car I owned. I had to press so damn hard on the brakes that the pads wore down to less than half in a year.
Then I got the chance to drive another x-type that had good factory brakes. I could not believe how good the brakes were.. I was instantly convinced that I needed to figure out my problem. I was going to go to the dealer and have them check out the system but I assumed they would only blame my Non-Jag dics and pads.
So i got some new dealer pads and discs.. and low and behold my car finally stops decently. only at this time did I come to the realisation that my problem with my red-stuff set up was the cheap discs... somehow the steel did not work. They were drilled rotors.. and dont know what effect the holeshad.
I do not question the EBC slotted and dimpled rotor, from all reports, they are excellent. What I am questioning is that he benefit of dimples and slots.
I think that the fricion between the pad and disc must be great. the materials must be good. I have not driven with EBC rotors But I did try their pads.
I am trying - with the long explanation... to explain that buck's comparison of broken jag brakes to new high end brakes is not a fair comparison. Factory brakes are OK but only when they are working properly. I had the famous red-stuff pads... but they were not working properly, and they sucked, so again not a fair assessment.
Oh.. I have another note....about the cooling due to the dimples. If your dimples are keeping your dics cooler.. then you will might get some benefit by using a pad with a better cold bite. If your pads only work when they are warmed up. then the dimples might be working against you. It is all a mix of compromises.
disc brakes are FRICTION BRAKES... they work by using friction and taking the energy of the moving car and turning it into heat. The edges of the dimples or slots do not provide braking by digging into the pads. if you take a pad and a sharp edge, you will see that they cut fairly easily. The action of a cheese grater would barely slow your car.... just eat the pads down to nothing in a second ortwo. The edges of the dimples or grooves have no effect on braking or "bite" The Bite of a pad is a term that relates to the coefficient of friction ofpad. a pad with cold bite will have high friction at low tems. racing pads need to be warmed up to have any bite at all. they only develop friction when they are hot. They can be quite dangerous on the street. BMW uses some of the grippiest Cold Bite pads they can find. They haul a car to a stop super fast.
Surface areaon your brakes has two functions..
First for Friction, (braking Force=normal force times coefficient)the area does not change the braking force directly but a larger contact surface will spread out the heat build up and keep the coeffecient from chaning due to sudden heat build up. In this case, more surface should be better.
Secondly, more disck area should help conduct the heat generared into the steel of the disc. There is some racing benefit to the holes that claim to use the space of the dimples to capture gasses that are generated when you brake VERY hard. this can happen as a chemical reaction when you get the brakes nearly red-hot on the track.
as far as driving downhill till your brakes are one stop away from overheating.... you as the driver are 100% responsible for the safe operation of your car. You are required to be sensible enough to pull over, or slow downwell before the brakes overheat. if 7 hard stops from 100km/h will kill the brakes,, you need to stop driving after 4 stops OR slow down to 50 km/hr where you can do 20 hard stops. It is not a game of chance out there.
As much as I am "argueing" I am writing this to challenge the general preceptions out there about brakes. It is important to me that people dont fall prey to marketing and make decisions based on sound logic etc. My problem here is that I am too lazy to type forever to make everything perfectly clear. I am suffering from a communication problem.. and sorry if it comes across as agumentative.
My brakes when I got the car were Terrible they were factory brakes and they were not working as they should. they did not represent how factory brakes should be. I dont know why they did not work. I (just like Buck ) asumed that Jag was crap. (I dont however think that the jag engineers forgot check the weight of their car when selecting brakes from the mondeo - that is kinda ridiculous to think - HEHHE) .
I bought red-stuff pads (well recommended) and el-cheapo drilled rotors from a local guy that sold them to me for 50 bucks each. They were barely better.... as I said. I dont for a second think that Bucks EBC set up was the same as my set up here. I could not believe that the red-stuff pads were bad, and I never thought that type of steel on the disc would affect the braking very much. At this point I really thought that Jag's brakes were just a rotten design. Also I have only driven BMW for 20 years, and always had great COLD BITE on every car I owned. I had to press so damn hard on the brakes that the pads wore down to less than half in a year.
Then I got the chance to drive another x-type that had good factory brakes. I could not believe how good the brakes were.. I was instantly convinced that I needed to figure out my problem. I was going to go to the dealer and have them check out the system but I assumed they would only blame my Non-Jag dics and pads.
So i got some new dealer pads and discs.. and low and behold my car finally stops decently. only at this time did I come to the realisation that my problem with my red-stuff set up was the cheap discs... somehow the steel did not work. They were drilled rotors.. and dont know what effect the holeshad.
I do not question the EBC slotted and dimpled rotor, from all reports, they are excellent. What I am questioning is that he benefit of dimples and slots.
I think that the fricion between the pad and disc must be great. the materials must be good. I have not driven with EBC rotors But I did try their pads.
I am trying - with the long explanation... to explain that buck's comparison of broken jag brakes to new high end brakes is not a fair comparison. Factory brakes are OK but only when they are working properly. I had the famous red-stuff pads... but they were not working properly, and they sucked, so again not a fair assessment.
Oh.. I have another note....about the cooling due to the dimples. If your dimples are keeping your dics cooler.. then you will might get some benefit by using a pad with a better cold bite. If your pads only work when they are warmed up. then the dimples might be working against you. It is all a mix of compromises.
#33
11-29-2008, 12:49 PM
RE: Which rotors and pads
okay... i'm editing a third time.
I can really be an A** sometimes.....
I have a saying I use alot: "Sometimes Mean is still Funny".
Unfortunately, the reverse is also true: "Sometimes Funny is still mean".
So:
my final edit on this reply:
Bo: please accept my humble apologies.... you are so right, as ever you are, and you know so much more than I could ever hope to..... even when your argument flies in the face of actual practical experience and recent brake engineering and technology.
I'll use my brakes, you use yours. And let's neither of us hit anybody... okay?
I can really be an A** sometimes.....
I have a saying I use alot: "Sometimes Mean is still Funny".
Unfortunately, the reverse is also true: "Sometimes Funny is still mean".
So:
my final edit on this reply:
Bo: please accept my humble apologies.... you are so right, as ever you are, and you know so much more than I could ever hope to..... even when your argument flies in the face of actual practical experience and recent brake engineering and technology.
I'll use my brakes, you use yours. And let's neither of us hit anybody... okay?
#34
11-29-2008, 01:50 PM
RE: Which rotors and pads
Bo, what year is your car?
Is it pre or post 2004?
The standard brakes changed after 2004 soI would assumethey were improved.
Ive yet to have any fade with my discs/pads and that includes a few times slowing from max speed and some lengthy European/UK trips using brakes togoodeffect.
I cant see why bite from cold is in question.Never had a problem with this and as far as wear they still look brand newafter around 2 years and about 20k miles.
I dont know for sure either about the reason Jag took the brakes straight from the lighter and less powerful FWD Mondeo and put them into a heavy AWD more powerful X Type, maybe it was lack of develpoment time as it was with the floorpan and 20% of the cars totalparts.
They must have done testsand pass standards otherwise they wouldnt have been able to use them (slightly off topic but I was talking to Jaguars chief test driver and developer Norman Dewis who oversaw the development of the disc brake and pad (trying different metals in the discs to maximize cooling and different materials in the pads to stop them disintegrating with heat on road cars prior to them being used for the 1st time in an XK120? when he co-drove with racing driverStirling Moss in the Mille Miglia of 1953 (or was it 54?) in Italy at our local Jag club meeting in May..now 87 he recalls specific facts and figures over the last 60 years like we remember our surnames...one test back in the 60s was when Jag were trying to get the E Type into the US.One of the testshe had to do was to show what happened with a tyre blow out at 150mph....if the test wasnt done the car wouldnt have beem sold there.A meeting was geld with Dunlopabout how to carry out the test and a Dunlop employee suggested a sharp shooter! to which Dewis replied "if you think I am having someone shoot at a car I am driving at 150mph youve got another thing coming!".In the end they made a leverbeside the drivers seat and at 150mphDewis pulled the lever which had a metal spike at the other end to puncture the wheel.The test was successful and the car was able to be sold in the US).
Is it pre or post 2004?
The standard brakes changed after 2004 soI would assumethey were improved.
Ive yet to have any fade with my discs/pads and that includes a few times slowing from max speed and some lengthy European/UK trips using brakes togoodeffect.
I cant see why bite from cold is in question.Never had a problem with this and as far as wear they still look brand newafter around 2 years and about 20k miles.
I dont know for sure either about the reason Jag took the brakes straight from the lighter and less powerful FWD Mondeo and put them into a heavy AWD more powerful X Type, maybe it was lack of develpoment time as it was with the floorpan and 20% of the cars totalparts.
They must have done testsand pass standards otherwise they wouldnt have been able to use them (slightly off topic but I was talking to Jaguars chief test driver and developer Norman Dewis who oversaw the development of the disc brake and pad (trying different metals in the discs to maximize cooling and different materials in the pads to stop them disintegrating with heat on road cars prior to them being used for the 1st time in an XK120? when he co-drove with racing driverStirling Moss in the Mille Miglia of 1953 (or was it 54?) in Italy at our local Jag club meeting in May..now 87 he recalls specific facts and figures over the last 60 years like we remember our surnames...one test back in the 60s was when Jag were trying to get the E Type into the US.One of the testshe had to do was to show what happened with a tyre blow out at 150mph....if the test wasnt done the car wouldnt have beem sold there.A meeting was geld with Dunlopabout how to carry out the test and a Dunlop employee suggested a sharp shooter! to which Dewis replied "if you think I am having someone shoot at a car I am driving at 150mph youve got another thing coming!".In the end they made a leverbeside the drivers seat and at 150mphDewis pulled the lever which had a metal spike at the other end to puncture the wheel.The test was successful and the car was able to be sold in the US).
#35
11-29-2008, 07:53 PM
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: Which rotors and pads
holycow again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Buck.. when in all of this did I say that your EBC dimpled and slotted rotors and ebc pad would not or could not or did not or do not work well????
I have said over and over again that your set up is excellent. - it might be the best on the market for the x-type.
I dont see any change of the brake parts on the x-type from year to year.. .not sure, maybe a UK thing. I drive an 02
how can I make this simpler?????? Buck, you said your factory brakes sucked... you changed them.... and they got better... now you are bowing down to the gods at EBC... and middle finger up at JAG.
That is a fair conclusion with your experience.
I am trying to add.. and share... and be as technically accurate as I can. (no clue where McJ is getting a different idea- maybe he is drunk? )
Just like you Buck my car had rotten factory brakes.. and again just like you I changed them.... But contrary to your experience.. my brakes did not improve..
after some time I changed my brakes for a second time.. and they got better... and again contrary to you, I used dealer parts for my second replacement.
all I am saying is that perhaps you could broaded your thoughts and maybe... just maybe the problem was you had bad parts on the car to begin with. I know you put good parts.. and the car brakes well now.
You did not change the brake caliper... nor the master cylinder.. so the force appied to the pads is the same. the only difference you can change is the coeffecient of friction betwen the pad and the disc.
that basically means the Jag brakes are designed well enough to stop the car.
the ability to keep stopping as you use the brakes heavily is all about heat dissipation. you can add bigger discs.. with better cooling.. but that does not change the force the caliper appies to the disc.
braking force= caliper force * coefficient of friction
not sure where I am making up science there.. it is in public school science class in every developped country.. ...
Buck.. when in all of this did I say that your EBC dimpled and slotted rotors and ebc pad would not or could not or did not or do not work well????
I have said over and over again that your set up is excellent. - it might be the best on the market for the x-type.
I dont see any change of the brake parts on the x-type from year to year.. .not sure, maybe a UK thing. I drive an 02
how can I make this simpler?????? Buck, you said your factory brakes sucked... you changed them.... and they got better... now you are bowing down to the gods at EBC... and middle finger up at JAG.
That is a fair conclusion with your experience.
I am trying to add.. and share... and be as technically accurate as I can. (no clue where McJ is getting a different idea- maybe he is drunk? )
Just like you Buck my car had rotten factory brakes.. and again just like you I changed them.... But contrary to your experience.. my brakes did not improve..
after some time I changed my brakes for a second time.. and they got better... and again contrary to you, I used dealer parts for my second replacement.
all I am saying is that perhaps you could broaded your thoughts and maybe... just maybe the problem was you had bad parts on the car to begin with. I know you put good parts.. and the car brakes well now.
You did not change the brake caliper... nor the master cylinder.. so the force appied to the pads is the same. the only difference you can change is the coeffecient of friction betwen the pad and the disc.
that basically means the Jag brakes are designed well enough to stop the car.
the ability to keep stopping as you use the brakes heavily is all about heat dissipation. you can add bigger discs.. with better cooling.. but that does not change the force the caliper appies to the disc.
braking force= caliper force * coefficient of friction
not sure where I am making up science there.. it is in public school science class in every developped country.. ...
#36
11-29-2008, 10:38 PM
Senior Member
RE: Which rotors and pads
Bo:
Jag apparently changed brake pads between 03 and 06. My first X - an 03 2.5 -constantly covered the rims with brake dust. The 06 I have now doesn't do it much at all. I've changed the rear pads on the 06 - and - the OEMpads were Akebonos. I put Friction Masters on and they're doing fine, and, no dust either.
Regards:
Oldengineer
Jag apparently changed brake pads between 03 and 06. My first X - an 03 2.5 -constantly covered the rims with brake dust. The 06 I have now doesn't do it much at all. I've changed the rear pads on the 06 - and - the OEMpads were Akebonos. I put Friction Masters on and they're doing fine, and, no dust either.
Regards:
Oldengineer
#37
11-30-2008, 12:26 AM
RE: Which rotors and pads
ORIGINAL: bojangles
the ability to keep stopping as you use the brakes heavily is all about heat dissipation. you can add bigger discs.. with better cooling.. but that does not change the force the caliper appies to the disc.
braking force + caliper force * coefficient of friction
not sure where I am making up science there.. it is in public school science class in every developped country.. ...
the ability to keep stopping as you use the brakes heavily is all about heat dissipation. you can add bigger discs.. with better cooling.. but that does not change the force the caliper appies to the disc.
braking force + caliper force * coefficient of friction
not sure where I am making up science there.. it is in public school science class in every developped country.. ...
keep 'em coming Tiger!
I feel like a child in school again.... learning from all those guys who have so much knowledge!
Boy am I LUCKY! [:-]
Hey, do y'all remember that text book from 3rd grade science class that said there were 7 planets in the known solar system? [&:]
Yeah, as I recall that class was taught by some guy who talked big, but had no real-world knowledge, and was threatened by anyone who did. Glad that ain't happenin' here. 'cuz it'd be a shame if BAER brakes, or BREMBO, or EBC, or TOKICO or NISSIN had to rely on old textbook theory stuff when developing their braking systems over the last decade or so.
#38
11-30-2008, 06:30 AM
#39
11-30-2008, 07:33 AM
RE: Which rotors and pads
Wow! 4 pages of crazyiness!
Folks this is simple math: You want better stopping power? 1. Bigger rotors. 2. Better calipers. 3. Better pads.
The Jag has smaller rotors, i think they are 10 inches, factory standard is 13, best is 14, and the calibers look to be the same size you would find on a go-kart. Which is all fine if you're a normal driver. But if you want a better bite, you'll need to spend some extra cash to get performance stopping power.
Folks this is simple math: You want better stopping power? 1. Bigger rotors. 2. Better calipers. 3. Better pads.
The Jag has smaller rotors, i think they are 10 inches, factory standard is 13, best is 14, and the calibers look to be the same size you would find on a go-kart. Which is all fine if you're a normal driver. But if you want a better bite, you'll need to spend some extra cash to get performance stopping power.
#40
11-30-2008, 07:53 AM
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: Which rotors and pads
Sorry Racer..... brake force=caliper force*Friction coeffecient. I ALWAYS like what you say... but since we are into the details...
Bigger brakes only address cooling....... (they may come with grippier pads too) - the size of the disc and pad does not change anything to give more braking. only the force and the friction can do that.
The fact that we are having a problem with the very basics of this shows how much we are victims of marketing and sales pressure. Dont get me wrong.. big brakes are nice, they work well, and feel great. But the underlying science is written in stone. Isaac may be dead, but so far his rules are holding fast.
the bite is a function of the hydraulic pressure and the friction coeffecient between the pad and disc.
Every production car should (when all is working properly) have ample power to lock up the wheel. At that point, abs kicks in... and your brakes are being applied and released. The maximum stopping is now a function of the friction between your tire and the road, not the brakes.
I know perfectly well that big brakes "feel better" and may apply the caliper force in a more controlable way. They often change the pedal force you need to get to the ABS threshold, so when you apply big brakes, they react differently.
there is never a time when the maximum braking is not limited by your tires skidding on the road.
IF you cant lock up your brakes (engage ABS) then you have a problem to address. That was my case for a long time.. I could never get the wheels locked up.
This was not a problem with caliper force.. only with friction between the pads and discs.
Oh Mc J... sorry about my typo I hit shift when I was going for the "=" sign.. got the "+" instead.... I edited it in my post. Not sure about your highschool science teacher? did you not use approved textbooks? Even a strange teacher should not be working outside of the curriculum. I assume you were in school post Newton times..
Bigger brakes only address cooling....... (they may come with grippier pads too) - the size of the disc and pad does not change anything to give more braking. only the force and the friction can do that.
The fact that we are having a problem with the very basics of this shows how much we are victims of marketing and sales pressure. Dont get me wrong.. big brakes are nice, they work well, and feel great. But the underlying science is written in stone. Isaac may be dead, but so far his rules are holding fast.
the bite is a function of the hydraulic pressure and the friction coeffecient between the pad and disc.
Every production car should (when all is working properly) have ample power to lock up the wheel. At that point, abs kicks in... and your brakes are being applied and released. The maximum stopping is now a function of the friction between your tire and the road, not the brakes.
I know perfectly well that big brakes "feel better" and may apply the caliper force in a more controlable way. They often change the pedal force you need to get to the ABS threshold, so when you apply big brakes, they react differently.
there is never a time when the maximum braking is not limited by your tires skidding on the road.
IF you cant lock up your brakes (engage ABS) then you have a problem to address. That was my case for a long time.. I could never get the wheels locked up.
This was not a problem with caliper force.. only with friction between the pads and discs.
Oh Mc J... sorry about my typo I hit shift when I was going for the "=" sign.. got the "+" instead.... I edited it in my post. Not sure about your highschool science teacher? did you not use approved textbooks? Even a strange teacher should not be working outside of the curriculum. I assume you were in school post Newton times..