crap.
I'm the guy who tells people it's stupid to replace a clutch without replacing a throw-out bearing.
I'm the guy who tells people it's stupid to do an oil change without replacing the crush-washer.
I'm the guy who tells people it's stupid to replace hard / expensive parts without doing the easy / cheap stuff along the way.

So why am I the guy who replaces struts and springs without replacing strut bearings? [:@]

Poor planning. Didn't want to wait for them to come in.

So now I get to take out the brand new struts and springs so I can replace the $50 strut bearings that I HELD IN MY HANDS when I replaced the springs.

grrrh.[:@]

Unless someone has another idea of what that annoying squeak / scrub sound is on the right front corner? The one that's worse now that it's cold? The one that sounds like the spring un-winding every time I turn the wheel, particularly at low speed..... [:@]

I haven't yet stood outside and listened while someone turns the wheel... but it seems fairly obvious so far. [:@]

 

There are a few things I can suggest:

#1. Was there a rubber isolator thingy between the bearing and the body? I don't know the X-Types well enough yet to know if they have them (I just got my car today).But I replaced shocks on a Nissan I had once, and experienced a similar issue. The rubber isolator (about as thick as a piece of cardboard, and seemed to be about as useful) that goes between the car body and the bearing, was deteriorated, and the Nissan dealership wanted $40 for a new one, so I figured I'd skip it since it didn't seem to do anything important. Wouldn't you know it...squeak, squeak, squeak. After about a month of telling myself I'd get used to it, I broke down, paid the $40, disassembled my struts a second time so I could slip that <edited> rubber isolator in there. [:@] Fixed the squeak.

#2. Did you confirm you tightened the shock tower bolts enough? If there's slack, the shock tower canrub and make thunking noises.

#3. Did you install the spring the right way?It's critical to mark the orientation and positioning before taking the old strut off, and then reinstall allof the re-used piecesit on the new strut in the identical orientation relative to the shock, relative to the hat, and relative to the bearing. Iuse a small paintbrush and whitepaint to mark all of the pieces for re-alignment.If you're off in aligning the pieces, the spring won't be seated right or the hat will be off kilter, andyou may hear popping noises as you crank the wheel, and your new struts could fail prematurely.

 

well, sort of a 'popping'.... maybe more of a 'thunking'.... ??
I wonder if that's it?
But I replaced spring and strut together, so the ONLY thing that could be out of alignment at that point is the bearing assembly (includes what you'd be calling the "hat")
my question though: what needs to be "aligned"? I mean, both the strut base and the bearing assembly have very clear 'seats' that the spring must fit into. How can ya get that wrong? What am I not understanding? 'cuz it sounds like you;re describing accurately what I'm hearing. It sounds like a small impact to the tire.... "thunk"... but clearly NOT the tire.

 

Sorry McJaguar, I missed the part where you mentioned you changed the springs too. The springs generally last well beyond the lifetime of the struts, so most often people just replace the struts and reuse the springs. The "hat" I was referring to is probably more accurately called the "upper spring perch". I know it seems like it should only be aligned in one spot on the spring (where the notch naturally mates with the end of the spring), butIremember from my experience that wasn't the case at all.

I'm flying a bit blind here since I haven't done a strut replacement on an X-Type, but overall,it sounds like your spring isn't seated properly, which is why you're hearing the thunking as it compresses and twists as you turn the wheel. If that's the cause, and you don't rectify it quickly, your brand new struts could fail after a few hundred miles. Do you recall whether there was a locating pin at the top of the strut perch when you took everything apart? On my Nissan, the locating pin was a small piece of metal with a D shaped hole in one end- the D-shaped hole went over the strut piston (which had a notch in it to fit into the D, and then the other end fit into a hole in the upper perch like this.

[IMG]local://upfiles/5932/260C5CC4F63F418B813DD6FBD3206D7B.jpg[/IMG]

The bearing was a separate piece that bolted onto this assembly.

BeforeI took the strut off, I had to paint an alignment mark on the perch and the spring to note the points on both which were perpendicular to the wheel. Then as I pulled the strut off, I had to make careful note how the locating pin was oriented. When I put the new strut on, I used the locating pin and the alignment marks I'd made to correctly orient the perch and spring relative to the strut body. You'd be surprised at how much you can be off if you attempt to just do this visually - I was off almost 90 degrees on my first attempt to do this visually. I had to start over and rely on the alignment marks and locating pin.

At this point, it sounds to me like you might have to take the strut assemby apart again and try to re-align it. Maybe one of the Jaguar Techs can weigh in with some guidance on how to ensure the upper perch is oriented correctly relative to the strut body. Sorry I can't be of more help.


[IMG]local://upfiles/5932/FBCDE2ACB0CE48C2802B1734D8A0D32D.jpg[/IMG]

 

Wow! Thanks for all your help Mattsteele!
No, there is no locating pin, as you've illustrated, on the X-type.

I guess I'm still not getting it. I just cannot figure-out what special relationship these parts have with each other that would require them to 'align'? 'Locate', as in 'held in a fixed position so as not to allow rubbing of parts' I can understand. But what would you align?

What you're suggesting (I THINK) is that the top perch needs to be in a specific spot in it's rotation, in relationship to the bottom perch (strut body). But I'm suggesting that there is ONLY ONE LOCATION that the spring perch can be in, and that is determined by placing the end of the top coil in it's seat in the perch. Same with the bottom. And those two will be in whatever alignment to each other that the spring SAYS they'll be in!

I mean, the spring will compress, and 'wind' as it does so. (Top will rotate, in relationship to the bottom of the spring) That means that the only thing that can be located or 'aligned' (in my mind) is the top of the spring and the bottom of the spring, to their respective perches.
Additionally, you will not be able to maintain a 'rotation' of the spring that does not leave the spring in it's static resting shape. Even if somehow you could while installing it, it would "unwind" upon installation (assuming the bearing is working properly).

So I'm perfectly willing to accept that I"m missing something quite obvious, and simple... but I'm still missing it.
Try me again. Maybe I can get my head around it?

Thanks!

ps: I'm also not seeing the relationship to all this that will cause strut failure? The strut shaft and piston are free to move (or NOT move) independent of all the parts we're talking about. It's under no stresses from the rotational movement of the spring and perch. I think.

 

i guess my issue is related to "squeak" or say merely a whistling noise from cold start to the next 5 miles. theres this whistling/squeaking noise i hear if im driving between 30-50mph from my initial start in the morning. I have an 02 xtype. Another "noise" that i hear is when im downhill driving on a 4th gear that it does seem like the AWD system giving me a vibrating sound (i could feel it too from my seat)... Any ideas as to what these are?

 

elardizabal
I would suggest starting a new thread on this sound, or even searching the other threads abit first.
The sounds you're describing do not seem related to this thread, though at least the first one is a sound that is discussed almost every day, in one thread or another.
Search a bit, then post up new questions that haven't been answered in the threads you see.

 

McJaguar, sorry for the delayed response. Internet access has been brutal most of the day today (I'm pretty sure many people in my company were watching the inauguration online, choking our web servers).

For what it's worth, I agree with your logic - it seems counterintuitive that the bottom and top perches could end up any other way than to be perfectly aligned when you put them back together, especially since there's a slot where the end of spring clearly fits, and the bottom perch can only be installed one way (forcing the top perch into the right position as it butts up againstthe end of the spring). In practice, I know I visually put together a strut assembly thinking everything looked right, only to realize after I'd finished that the alignment mark was way off. Luckily, I'd read a tip before starting disassembly to mark the orientation of all of the pieces relative to each other with a thin paint line, so I was able to both realize I'd reassembled it wrong, and rectify it easily.

I still don't know fully why I was off in my initial attempt. My best guess it that trying to line everything up visually can be misleading, and that I might not have tightened the perch all the way. When I released the pressure on the spring, everything went wonky because the spring sat higher than it should have (and the end twisted more than it should have).

Yes, the issue with aligning the top perch is that it can be rotated incorrectly if you don't make alignment marksor have a locating pin to guide you. Why is this so bad? When you examine it from on top, it looks like top perch is just a flat disk (like the lid of a jar), but it's actually slightly angled (i.e., one side of the disk sits higher than the other). You can clearly see this by flipping the perch to it's edge and looking at it at eye level. The reason it's angled is to compensate for the fact your strut is angled on install - when it's installed correctly, the face of the perch butts up flush against the wheel well.If it's misaligned (i.e., rotated incorrectly relative to the rest of the strut), it won't sit flush. Among other things, it means you don't have a solid mating of the strut assembly against the wheel well, the strut bolts won't tighten fully (even though you're misled to think they have), and there will likely be excess stress on the strut rod which can quickly cause it to bend and fail.

The frustrating thing about the "thunking" or popping noise after installing a strut is that it could be symptomatic of multiple causes:

- the top perch being misaligned
- the strut bolts not being properly tightened (possibly due to the above)
- the spring ends not being seated fully when the strut assembly is under load
- a damaged strut bearing
- and/or a damaged strut rod

The alignment and proper operation of all of these pieces depends on each other, so being off in one regard can throw your whole assembly off. Sorry I can't give you specific guidance on how to align the X-Type struts, but hopefully one of the techs can weigh in. If yourstrut assembly was properly putback together, maybe the noise is coming from the strut bearings?

In case it's helpful, here's a generalized step-by step on replacing struts. Maybe it can give you some confidence about the procedure you followed:
http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/ab_sus...278109,00.html

Good luck in troubleshooting this!

 

Man... Thanks for all your help MattSteele!
Even if I'm still scratching my head, I sure appreciate the challenge to my thinking on it. And I appreciate the tips, advice and links you've provided.
I can visualize all of what you're saying. Enough so that I had the forsight to MARK the bearing itself when I took it out, so that I would be sure to get it back in the same position.

So here's what I'm thinking:
The only thing that could have changed really, is the loading of the bearing, through the perch, based on where it ended-up (rotationally speaking).
Since I went from a 'comfort' spring to a 'Sport' spring, it's quite possible that the end of the coil aligns in a different place alltogether, thereby loading the bearing in a different place than where it had been loaded for the previous 110,000 miles. This change could be enough to cause an accelerated bearing failure, I think. This all assumes that the perch only does a marginal job of distributing the load evenly, which I'm fully prepared to believe.

Either way... I still think I'm going to find myself replacing strut bearings before spring gets here.

thanks again.
If you have any other thoughts while you're laying in bed not sleeping... let me know!

 

You're very welcome, McJaguar.I hopeour conversationisactually helping you to think through the problem, rather than sending you on a wild goose chase - having had my X-Type for a total of 1 day now, I can only share anecdotal experiences from work I did on a previous car.

Ah, one more piece to the puzzle!Since your new springs aren't direct OEM replacements, I guess there's a possibility that the ends don't "end" at the same place. I have no idea if there's any kind of manufacturer standard that stipulates the ends of springs need tofinish at the 3 and 9 o-clock positions, for example. If the spring ends are off, and you used the end of the new springs to align the top perch, it would invariably be out of rotation. I've got to think it makes sense to have a manufacturer standard for stuff like this, but who knows...

I know sport springs are stiffer than stock, but are yours also lowering springs?Given your racing experience and the fact that you know your way around cars, I'm assuming you've already had a proper alignment done after changing the struts? An alignment checkis necessary whenever shocks/struts are replaced, but lower springs make matters worse by throwing your camber off.Anecdotally, I've read that lowering springs can lead to substantially shorter strut life than stock height springs.I don't think they would cause your new struts to fail immediately, but a shortened service life is just something to keep in mind for the future.

Please let us know if you figure this problem out.

 

my springs are not lowering springs. They are the Jaguar "Sport" Spring and strut. I should've just replaced the bearing with 'em....[] As to your idea of an industry standard for coil-end positions, I still can't see that it matters, even a little bit, unless it's a situation like mine seems to be, where the bearing gets loaded differently and fails. And then we have to come back to my FIRST post on the topic.... about how DUMB I am for not replacing the cheap / easy stuff!!! [:@]

And yes, the alignment was the 1st thing I did afterwards... though to be very frank and honest, I did a better job with a string and measuring tape in my driveway than the dealer did... for $140 they screwed the whole thing up.

I finally took it over to Les Schwab and had them do it right (for $80), because when the first snow flew, I wanted to get rid of the car! it was that bad!

I'll keep ya posted.
Looking through the step-by-steps at the link you provided, I am pleased to see that not only did I not miss anything they talk about, I actually noticed a few places where they missed some information that would've facilitated the change-out for anyone doing it for the first time. Speaking of which: If it's so darned important that the bearing be installed in the correct orientation (and I know it is, which is why I marked mine), then why don;t they offset one of the bolts, so that it can only mount in one position?
or MAYBE, when they're new, it doesn't matter.... but when they're "broken-in", then it becomes important?
I guess I'll find out when I get new ones!

 

I'm glad you were able to confirm that you didn't miss any steps. And I agree- there should be a more foolproof way to design these parts so they can't be installed incorrectly. On my Nissan, the bearing had offset bolts, so it could only be installed one way.

I hope you can get to the bottom of this issue -at this point, I'm out of ideas, but I'm hoping others will pitch in with fresh suggestions.I'm sure it's frustrating, but hang in there. You're resourceful enough to figure this out. It'll probably turn out to be something really simple.

 

X-type has a eccentric dual strut top bearing.
there is one bearing that the strut rod attaches to, and it takes all the up and down force of the shock only.
there is a second bearing, that takes all the weight of the car, and is slightly off centre from the strut. This allows the body to take the two loads (shock load and spring load) in two places.. makeing the body appear much stiffer.

when you turn the wheel, it is the bigger bearing that is under pressure, not the typical bearing that you see in 99 percent of other cars.

just be aware, that you are looking in the wrong place. the inner bearing is not under any pressure unless you are banging over bumps.

 

okay, Jimmy... I'm trying to follow what you're saying here. You're using big words.

I'm trying to remember just exactly what it all looked like (it's been 5 months since I had it apart) so I can visualize what you're saying.
Maybe this will help.


1 Spring assembly
2 Thrust bearing
3 Strut and spring top mount
4 Spring isolator
5 Bump stop
6 Damper piston gaiter
7 Damper assembly

So I guess I'm not seeing an 'inner and outer' bearing, nor am I seeing how anything is off-center, as it appears to all be self-locating. I see only one bearing....

You tell me I'm looking in the wrong place, which I'm happy to believe.... but tell me where the RIGHT place is? [&:]

 

2 and 3 are both bearings, they do not share the same centre of rotation, when you assemble the strut, you will see what I mean. try and turn the black mounting flange with the 3 studs, it should turn fairly easily, and return to a centre position on its own. I took my outer bearing apart and cleaned and greased it. My inner one was worn, and that causes an annoying rattle over teeny road irregularities.

This dual bearing is a nice ingenious solution. (to a problem that we never realised we had!)

 

HUH!
I did not realize that didn't share a center of rotation.
Nor had I really htought about it as 2 bearings, but I DO rememebr that it was clear that the rotation of the spring bearing was clearly independant of the strut rod.
So the outer / larger / spring bearing is serviceable? ie: can be dissassembled, lubed, reassembled?

 

I smell a FAQ when this is all said and done......

 

SUNNUVA.....!!! [:@]

Now I've developed a leak!
AND a noise in the steering column!

whatever is leaking, it's close enough to clear that i had to pick some up on my finger from the asphalt, and even then can;t tell ya what color it is. But it ain;t water. And so far, seems too thick to be anti-freeze.
So then I get in the car and find a noise in the steering column (up close to the steering wheel though)....

So I've gotta wonder if the 'thunking' of the spring / bearing has worn a seal in the steering rack.... ????
I just called my dealer, they've got both bearings in stock now... so it looks like I know what I'll be doing this weekend.
I'll try to take some pics along the way.... we'll see what we learn as we go.
Based on what I can see from the top, the spring and the strut ARE in fact on the same center of rotation.
Not tosay that Jimmy isn't right... only that I can't confirm that from the top....

Jimmy: you suggest that the strut and spring have seperate bearings. WHAT AM I BUYING, when I call the dealer and tell him I need a strut bearing? Does that have BOTH bearings that you;re describing? 'cuz from the drawing, that sure looks to be a single part.

 

WELL, Here we go!
I just bought the parts at my dealer. If I can get done with inventory at work early enough this weekend, I'll see if I can get to this project.
I'll try to take some pics as I go, so that I can report back next week.

I also boght another air scoop.... but I might wait 'til it starts gettingabove 35 degrees before I put it back on.

 

hey!
by the way; I got this all sorted, and I learned a thing or two.
I'll try to sit down this evening and put it all together with the pictures I took in the process and see if I can shed a little light on the whole thing.