Howdy all,

I finally got around to refreshing the supercharger oil in my 2018 XE-S with the 3.0l AJ126. The supercharger is an Eaton TVSR1320, and I purchased a litre of oil from Harrop Engineering here in Australia for this project. You definitely don't need a litre to do this job as the dry fill volume is 4.1oz (121ml), however I plan to do four changes over the course of a week or so and 2x 100ml bottles was $90 while a litre was $95. Why four changes, you ask? Great question! After 60,000mi or 100,000km most people only manage to remove 60-90ml (2-3oz), and there's hot debates across Jag forums (and probably on other car forums) over whether you should put back the same amount as you remove or the dry fill volume (121ml). These debates are mostly (not always) based on speculation and assumptions rather than real-world testing, so I'm going to try and settle this debate or at least provide some extra information that people can use to make their own minds up.

The "dry fill volume" side of the debate have three main arguments: the oil either breaks down, evaporates, or slowly leaks through the seals.... the first two don't make sense to me - oil simply cannot break down into nothing or evaporate, and the unit is sealed so if it could evaporate with heat then it would turn into a vapour that would re-condense when the supercharger cools down. The third argument that it could "slowly leak through the seals" isn't unreasonable but the unit is supposed to be well sealed (indeed Jaguar call it "sealed for life") and, if 25-50% is leaking over 60k mi, then it'll run itself dry around 120-180k mi/200-300,000km. This doesn't seem right to me especially from a company like Jaguar who seem to try to do things well, but it's certainly not outside the realm of possibility.

I sit on the "replace what you took out" side of the debate and, instead of defying the laws of physics or leaking from a sealed unit, I feel like it's more likely you just can't get all the oil out with the suction method. However this is solely based on logic not experience, and logic can certainly be wrong especially if you don't have all the information or there's something you can't see. If I'm wrong and I put back insufficient oil then the supercharger is still at risk of running dry, so we're going on a little testing mission!

The testing strategy
It's pretty simple - I'm going to remove the old oil using the suction method, put back the same amount of new oil, and drive the car for a day or two to let it mix in with any oil that was left behind. I'll then repeat the exact same procedure three more times giving me four oil samples that will hopefully tell us what's going on. I expect to see one of two results:

1. If the suction method is removing 90%+ of the oil this means we're mixing new and old oil at a ratio of about 90:10... so I expect the first sample to be black, the second sample to be medium-dark brown, and the third and fourth samples to be almost the same colour as new oil.
2. If the suction method is only removing half the oil this means our ratio is more like 50:50, so I expect the first sample to be black and the next three samples to get progressively lighter at a steady pace.

If we graphed the oil's "darkness" on a scale from 0-100, where 0 is new oil and 100 is old oil, I expect something like this (result 1 is red, result 2 is blue):




Judging the colour alone isn't very scientific so the samples will also be sent to Blackstone Labs for analysis, and I expect the volume of metal solids they identify in the samples will follow one of the graph lines above i.e. either reducing by ~90% or ~50% each time.


My prediction
Honestly, I'm not sure. I know the oil is not breaking down into nothing or evaporating, but it's certainly possible that it's making it out through the seals. When I got in for a close look I noticed some brown staining around the back cover seal which could well be a little bit of oil, but it could also be something else.

If I have to pick a side I'm going to stick with my thought that we're just not sucking all the old oil out. Let's see what happens

--
Tags
@Jagknight85
@OzXFR
@clubairth1

Just tagging you guys cause we've talked about this in the past, and I thought you might be interested

 

First change and how-to - 22/06/2024
The first change was hard and took about three hours, but actual work time was like 20 minutes while the rest of this time was spent trying to get the tube into the oil at the bottom of the unit and I had to make a trip to the local vet to get a different tube and syringe. The only prep I did was to take the engine cover off and removed its rear mount (two bolts), and unclip a vacuum line to pull it slightly aside. We don't measure things in bananas here so my tools are metric, and I only had a tiny little 3/16" allen key... I used a spanner to give me leverage and it worked OK but I'll go buy a T-bar for the next one I think. The fill bolt was surprisingly tight and bound a little bit in a few spots but I got her out.



Back of the engine bay is absolutely filthy, certainly not up to Jaaag standard. I'll give that a clean up on one of the next changes, or when I do coolant pipes soon.

I was terrified of dropping the allen key or fill plug down the back of the engine - I bet anything that if I'd dropped the fill plug it'd have landed in the one spot you can't reach from anywhere, with anything. I very carefully got them out and started with this, a 100ml syringe with a 5.9mm OD catheter...




...but I had lots of trouble getting the thick tube to go in the hole (he he), it felt like it was hitting something solid only a couple of mm after it went into the fill hole (I later found out was a drive gear). I took the big syringe and tube to the vet and asked if they had anything smaller, they found me a 25ml syringe and an IV drip line with an OD of 2.3mm:




This was much easier to get in, but the next problem I hit was that the tube was so soft I couldn't feel anything with my fingers so I couldn't tell where the tube was.. it was like I was fumbling around in the dark with my first girlfriend, absolutely no idea what I was doing I think the soft tube was curling up and I wasn't able to get it to sit at the bottom of the unit. The thinner tube did let me feel the shape of the "step" just inside the fill hole so Ihad another try with the thicker tube, this time twisting it so it was pointing towards the back, and after a little bit of wiggling I got it past! I still couldn't seem to get it into the oil although I did feel like it was hitting the bottom. A bit more fiddling with the tube and I finally found the oil I managed to get about 30ml out but no more, but I could only pull air after that. I did a lot of swearing and dancing before I had the idea to leave the big tube where it was and run the small tube through it. This kept the small tube straight and in place until it exited the big tube, and gave me enough tactile sensation that I could feel what it was doing at the bottom. The big tube was tricky to insert at first but found the bottom more easily and pulled oil out quickly, while the small tube was easier to insert but lacked stiffness and the oil flowed through it extremely slowly... almost two minutes to pull 10ml! In hindsight think the perfect tube for this job is about 4.5mm to 5mm OD, it'd be stiff enough to get to the bottom and thin enough to be easier to get past the top of the gear, and also being free-flowing.

When I had to empty a syringe, I found it easier to leave the tube in the supercharger and disconnect the syringe from it rather than pull the tube out. It took a while to find the oil and I could only pull about 10ml before I'd have to move the tube around a bit to get it into the puddle again so I figured once I had it in the right spot, I'd leave the tube in there.

I managed to get another 40ml or so out for about 70ml all up, which is a little on the lower end of what I've seen from others but it's what I got.



Next I put 75ml of new oil back in using the big syringe and catheter.



I very very carefully put the plug back in, Started her up and she sounds fine, revved fine. I've actually never revved the car up in the garage with the bonnet up and the door open, so I did it way more than I needed to

Overall a super easy job once I figured out how to get the tube to the bottom of the unit... now that I know what I'm feeling for, I expect the next three changes will take me no more than 20min each.

Stay tuned for the next one in a few days!

 

Morning All,

It would be nice to know the diameter of the big tube and little tubes.
What mileage on the car?.
and nobody said it would be easy.

Well done by the way, and don't drop the fill plug.
Put a piece of plastic bag over the end of the Allen key to ensure a tight fit and the fill plug does not drop off on removal, once broken free.

You are hitting the rear drive gear on the way in, as the oil fill plug is off centre.

Use an endoscope to you cell for better viewing. duel head with light, wi fi or not. Something like the below.

https://www.aliexpress.com/gcp/30000...Cquery_from%3A

Have have a look at the rear heater coolant manifold seam while in there, for stains. if you catch my drift.

 

Small tube: 2.3mm OD, 1.4mm ID
Big tube: 5.9mm OD, 2.3mm ID

I think the perfect tube for this job is about 4.5mm to 5mm OD. The big tube was tricky to insert at first but found the bottom more easily and pulled oil out quickly, while the small tube was easier to insert but lacked stiffness and pulled oil out extremely slowly... almost two minutes to pull 10ml! I think a tube 4.5-5mm would be stiff enough to get to the bottom and thin enough to be easier to get past the top of the gear, and also being free-flowing.

I forgot to mention that, when dumping the oil, I found it easier to leave the tube in the supercharger and disconnect the syringe from it rather than pull the tube. It took a while to find the oil and I found that I could only pull about 10ml before I'd have to move the tube around a bit to get it into the puddle again, so I figured once I had it, I'd leave the tube in there. I'll add this info to the OP.

Mileage on my car is 119,000km / ~74,000mi

haha I read some other threads where people had the same trouble as me, I expected the first one to take a while

I was sooooo scared of dropping the fill plug or the allen key! The plastic bag trick is a great idea, I've used paper before but it's often too thick.

That makes sense, I thought it felt like there were teeth or steps or something. I had to push the tube towards the back of the unit which makes sense now you say that, I imagine I was pushing it between the edge of the gear and the back cover.

Two steps ahead of you on that one, this is the next project

 

I expect you have seen the other threads about checking the rear header internal bores of the legs for size and obstructions.
While you can fit the rear header with the supercharger fitted, easier with it off and out the way.
It will have to come off to install the front cooling water pipes, x 2 I see at the bottom of the box anyway.
It will also be handy to know the quantity of oil you get out with supercharger removed and drained.

Allow time for cleaning up the air inlet casings to cylinder head banks and the casing marks off the supercharger inlet body.
The air inlets, and valves will also need cleaning(decarbonising) when S/C removed.

forgot to mention, Nylon 1/4" instrument air / pneumatic air line may be an option.
But I doubt the Vets carry that!
The pipe being a little stiffer, stronger keeps its shape better..

 

I took the car for a drive today... I'm not going to tell you I felt a difference with the new oil, but I did feel a nice sense of satisfaction that I completed the first mechanical surgery on this car! I've done some cosmetic and audio improvements, but this is the first time I've been game to play around in the engine bay and I feel pretty good for doing so

I have seen those reports - I've inspected all the parts for flashing/debris except for the rear header, but I'll pull that one apart before I do the job.

I plan to do the coolant pipe replacement without removing the supercharger... that's another debate that I'd like to settle A Jaguar tech from the US has developed a procedure for doing it and one of our forum members has had his car done that way, but a few people are having trouble believing it's possible so I'm going to try it myself and document the process for everyone else. This means I won't be able to clean out the intake etc, but if I own this car for long enough I might pull the s/c off another time.

1/4" is a little over 6mm, wider than the one I had a little trouble pushing in there. 3/16" is closer to the 5mm but I'm not sure if that's a common size for hoses.... here in Aus, 5mm vacuum hose is a common size and is available in different colours and stiffnesses.. if I think of it, I'll try to find some tomorrow and try it out on one of the next changes.

 

Second change - 23/06/2024
I took the car for a 30km/40min drive this morning to get my Sunday coffee, and let it sit for a couple of hours to cool before I did the oil again. This time was way easier now I know what I'm feeling for, and only took me about 25mins. I used the same trick of pushing the large tube in til I found the bottom, then pushing the smaller tube through that tube to reach the oil puddle. Interestingly I only managed to get about 60ml out this time, but I simply don't accept that 10ml could have leaked in 30km so I'd say that was mostly just me not finding it all. It's also possible that I didn't give it enough time for all of the oil to drip down into the bottom of the case... once I had the ~60ml out I considered starting the engine very briefly to sling any oil that might have been on the gears off into the case, but I didn't want to add any unnecessary variables to the testing strategy so I just got out what I could and replaced it with slightly more than came out (I put about 70ml back). The colour is quite dark, much darker than I'd have expected new oil to be after 30km of driving.. so I'm confident that this is a sign of new oil mixing with the old oil which is expected either way. How much old oil mixed with new oil is something we can't tell from the colour, but I'm hoping the metal solids on the Blackstone Labs analysis will tell us more.

This is roughly what I expected either way, but I think the next two samples will be the interesting ones... I think they'll either suddenly go clear like the new oil (a sign I've been getting ~90% of the old oil out), or they'll just keep getting a bit lighter each time (a sign I'm only getting maybe 50% of the old oil out).

From left to right - first change, second change, new oil

 

As an engineer, I like your strategy. Very logical.

 

Thank you! If I had any regret in life it might be not getting into engineering when I was younger... I love designing, making, and testing things

 

Third change - 24/06/2024
After doing the same short drive as yesterday the third change is done, it's getting easier each time! I tried a 3mm ID hose with an OD of 4.85mm, it slipped past the gear easily but it had been coiled up and was holding a curve so I still had trouble getting it to hit the bottom. I went back to my big hose from the first two attempts and, to my surprise, I managed to get it straight in the oil almost first wiggle and I pulled just under 90ml out in one go! Today's change took less than 10min from popping the bonnet to closing it.

This is where it gets interesting... it's impossible to tell from the colour alone, but today's sample is quite close to the new oil and is roughly the colour I'd have expected if I was getting the majority of the old oil out each time. Something to keep in mind is I put 70ml of oil in yesterday and pulled 90ml out today, so that means there must have been at least 20ml left after yesterday's change which makes sense as I struggled to find more than about 60ml yesterday. Where that oil was, I have no idea.

Left to right - first sample, second sample, third sample, new oil



Fourth change booked for tomorrow morning

 

Fourth change - 25/06/2024
Fourth change is done - the oil came out almost new! This aligns with my expectation for the scenario where some oil is being lost over time, and I think this is sufficient evidence for me to change my mind.

Left to right - first change, second change, third change, fourth change, new oil



I removed 95ml of "old" oil this time around, and decided to put back 105ml. I expect there is maybe 10ml or so still in there and the dry fill volume is 122ml, so I'm comfortable this is close enough and there's not enough loss for +/- 10ml or so to be a big issue.

I wouldn't say I'm surprised that all signs point towards some oil loss, but I am surprised that JLR decided this unit should never have the oil replaced and instead be left to run dry. All companies make decisions that seem weird to us when we don't know the rationale behind the decision and often I can see the strings in the background that might have led to a decision that looks weird from the outside, but I'm having trouble seeing the point of this one. The only benefit Jag would get from this decision is that your major service at ~100,000km is going to be slightly cheaper... I just can't see how that's enough of a benefit to justify the risk of catastrophic failure if/when the unit runs itself dry. Even though the car will almost certainly be out of warranty by then, Jaguar seem to be in the business of making cars that last so I find it a bit odd.

Something else we can infer from this test is that the oil volume doesn't really matter all that much... this car has been ticking along just fine with what it had, and others have pulled way less than me and their cars were running OK. It's important to note that just because you pull 60ml out doesn't mean there was only 60ml in there... I only got 60ml out on the second change, then easily pulled 90ml or so out on the third and fourth. I did discover that it's much much easier to do this job when the supercharger is still warm.. I drove for about 30km before changes 3 and 4 then let it sit for about two to three hours with the bonnet open before doing the job, and the oil just came straight out with almost no fiddling. You don't want it so hot you can't touch it (you might melt the tube and leave plastic in there if it's too hot), but I reckon if you can only just lean on it with your exposed palm then it's about the right temperature. Changes 1 and 2 were both done with the engine quite cold and that may have been a factor in not getting as much out as I did on 3 and 4.

Feel free to post any questions or comments I'll be back to post analysis results from Blackstone when I get them.

Cheers

 

Fourth change - 25/06/2024
Fourth change is done - the oil came out almost new!
This aligns with my expectation for the scenario where some oil is being lost over time, and I think this is sufficient evidence for me to change my mind.


Not altogether unsurprising, that there is oil loss. Since the oil sealing is reliant on an oil seal and/or bearing seal through the shaft to the negative pressure airside.

I removed 95ml of "old" oil this time around, and decided to put back 105ml. I expect there is maybe 10ml or so still in there and the dry fill volume is 122ml, so I'm comfortable this is close enough and there's not enough loss for +/- 10ml or so to be a big issue.

A good many people have refilled to the TVS 1900, capacity 150ml with no negative consequences reportedly, myself included. Which does give you an additional 28ml of oil.
The gear drive wheels and the bearings sit in an oil bath for splash lubrication.

I wouldn't say I'm surprised that all signs point towards some oil loss, but I am surprised that JLR decided this unit should never have the oil replaced and instead be left to run dry.

All companies make decisions that seem weird to us when we don't know the rationale behind the decision and often I can see the strings in the background that might have led to a decision that looks weird from the outside, but I'm having trouble seeing the point of this one.

The only benefit Jag would get from this decision is that your major service at ~100,000km is going to be slightly cheaper...
I just can't see how that's enough of a benefit to justify the risk of catastrophic failure if/when the unit runs itself dry. Even though the car will almost certainly be out of warranty by then, Jaguar seem to be in the business of making cars that last so I find it a bit odd.

Depending on your model of Jaguar across the ranges, the none fluid changes, refresh, etc are not mentioned for :
Rear/Front diffs,
Steering fluid/rack,
ZF transmission fluid, and filter.

The oil in the supercharger is unlikely to run dry, once the oil is below the lower shaft, bearing, oil seal, the oil leakage/weepage will reduce noticeably. Then the over worked oil sludge will serve as the splash lubricant well outside of the warrantee period. Before the bearing wear is evident, requiring seal and bearing renewal, if indeed this is possible on the rear bearings. Catastrophic only after prolonged running with noise from the bearings etc.

Something else we can infer from this test is that the oil volume doesn't really matter all that much... this car has been ticking along just fine with what it had, and others have pulled way less than me and their cars were running OK. It's important to note that just because you pull 60ml out doesn't mean there was only 60ml in there... I only got 60ml out on the second change, then easily pulled 90ml or so out on the third and fourth.

Since it is splash lubricated from the turning gear drive to gear teeth and bearings. The only down side being the degradation of the overworked oil. Due to Heat and Load due to prolonged reduced oil quantity.


I did discover that it's much much easier to do this job when the supercharger is still warm.. I drove for about 30km before changes 3 and 4 then let it sit for about two to three hours with the bonnet open before doing the job, and the oil just came straight out with almost no fiddling. You don't want it so hot you can't touch it (you might melt the tube and leave plastic in there if it's too hot), but I reckon if you can only just lean on it with your exposed palm then it's about the right temperature. Changes 1 and 2 were both done with the engine quite cold and that may have been a factor in not getting as much out as I did on 3 and 4.

The viscosity is fairly low to start with, the easier method would be to have easier handled/sized manipulated suction pipe and a motorised pump. To have both access to the bottom of the oil sump and easier extraction via a pump, suction devise.

Feel free to post any questions or comments I'll be back to post analysis results from Blackstone when I get them.


Pleased to note it went well and looking forward the oil report.