Hi members,

I am new here and this is my second post here, other being in the introduction forum.

I have a question around the timing chain in the XF-RS motor that was produced in the 2013 year, yes there is lots of talk and banter on the known issues but what I can not establish is if the XF-RS's have the older error prone timing chain guides, or did it already have the newer style?

Secondly I have heard somewhere that there is/was an upgrade of the chains from 5mm to 6.3mm, which would this vehicle have?

I would like to establish if I need to invest in new guides and chains(kit) or should mine be save for now...

Current mileage on the vehicle is 56 000km's or 35 000 miles and she has an up to date full service history with Jaguar with annual oil changes.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this.

Paul

 

Glad to see your searching and investigating. That is always good.
You have a few errors too?
The chains were upgraded from 6.35mm to 8mm.
Here is what they look like and you can remove the oil fill cap and get a look at the chains on one side.




So that was one problem. The other big one was the spring loaded metal pin that put tension on the slipper shoe guides wears into the back of the shoe.
Here is a masterful thread from one of our top members of the forum Dave Tibbs. So take a look as this guy has completely rebuilt his 5.0L SC V-8 after a massive engine failure. Not many can claim to have done that!!

Note also Bigg Will's posting. He is now gone but another guy to watch as he did a huge amount of work to his car and documented a lot of it.

5.0L Timing Chains

I have followed this problem very closely and Jaguar did the last upgrade somewhere in the 2014 model year so you probably have the old failure prone parts in your engine. As always it was done as a running change so it depend on your VIN. I have a 2014 XJR and my VIN is just before the upgrade came out. So I am kind of in the same situation you are. I have been on the forum for almost 15 years now and will tell you to change you oil often and FORGET the stupid 15K-16K drain intervals Jaguar publishes. I change oil at 1 year and 6K-8K drain intervals.

Bigg Will had a 2010 XFR the very first year they came out. He drove it hard and changed the oil every 2000 miles using Walmart synthetic oil. When he left the forum his XFR was well over 100K on all the stock timing gear.

Note too that Jaguar has changed the oil spec from 5W-20 to 0W-20 apparently because of the timing chain/tensioner problems.
Please, please CHECK YOUR OIL!! So many people have destroyed their engines and they don't check the oil. Yes there is no dipstick and I don't like that either but stay on top of all fluids. We have not talked about coolant but keep a CLOSE eye on the level.
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Thanks for the detailed reply Clubairth1, really appreciated.

Yeah my car gets her annual service religously and I do on avg about 6000km's between services, all services done at Jaguar dealers here in Cape Town.

I will most certainly check the oil they use, and I have been thinking about doing a oil service myself at 6 month after dealer service.

I am in awe of the member who rebuilt his own engine, that is way past my ability and comfort levels.

If it was not for the price tagged asked by the dealers to do the chains then it would have been done already, so I am putting it off but also realise the risk that it poses may be way more expensive. So starting to look around for a trustworthy Jag mechanic that does not have the same labour rate.
At the same time I want to do a cooling system refresh, just for that piece of mind factor.

Again thanks for the detailed response.

 

Hope it helped but can you inspect your car and see if you can tell what kind of chains your car has?
I have looked at my car but I had a hard time seeing anything good enough to be sure?
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Did I read right / you only have 35k miles on your engine? Are you experiencing any issues? That would be very early for timing chain wear

If you're getting the clattering and ratting of a loose chain then absolutely get it fixed. But it's a very expensive pre-emptive repair - particularly for a low mileage car. My 2010 is the 70k miles range and still sounds great.

 

Yep, take the oil fill cap off and shine a torch down the hole and you will clearly see a few links of one of the timing chains.
It is then very obvious if you have the earlier 6.3 mm chains or the later 8.0 mm chains, per the pic posted by clubairth1, the 6.3 mm chains have 9 links between the end plates while the 8.0 mm chains have only 3 links. Even with my very dodgy eyesight I can see that my 2014 F-Type V6 has only three links and therefore the later chains.

 

Yeah mileage is still very low - the only reason I am considering is for preventative maintenance, I do not want it to go bang...

But I will go check out via the oil cap and perhaps take a pic and a video, but she still seems fairly quiet.

 

Thanks OzXFR! I am afraid it's more my eyes than anything else that prevented me from seeing the details!
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Does anyone know the cost of timing chain and tensioner done by indy or dealer

 

Does $6,000 to $8,000 sound about right?

 

I was quoted the same by an independent shop here in Adelaide and it is odds on a JLR dealership would charge a lot more than that.
But that is Oz $ which are worth SFA compared to 'merican $ so maybe $4,000 to $5,000 USD.
You could shop around for a cheaper price but then you take the risk of shoddy work and/or a botched job (witness the F-Type currently in the Car Wizard's shop), so it's a bit of a crap shoot.
Whatever way you go it's an expensive fix, the parts themselves are not all that expensive but it's very labour intensive and can only be done properly by someone who knows what they are doing and takes their time.

 

So, just because you have the 6.35 mm timing chain doesn't necessarily mean it's a ticking time bomb, does it? I hope not because I'm driving a 2010 XF 5.0 with the 6.35 mm timing chain LOL

 

Yes, it IS a ticking time bomb IF you neglect oil changes OR you let the timing chain tensioner go too long at max extension.
The moral of the story is change your oil often (at least twice as often as the scheduled and stupid long 16k miles) and use quality oil of the correct spec.
And even then you may still have the problem mentioned above, quote: "The other big one was the spring loaded metal pin that put tension on the slipper shoe guides wears into the back of the shoe."
A very common problem on the older AJ133, put simply the tensioner pin (steel) impacts a soft metal (aluminium) "plug" on the chain guide and wears that plug down until it gets to the point that the tensioner is maxed out. Then due to no more tension available the timing chain starts to become looser and looser until eventually it skips one or more cam sprocket teeth. The chain becoming a bit loose is the cause of the rattling noise. If only one tooth is skipped then it's a relatively minor problem with the timing a bit out and the engine runs a little poorly, but if two or more teeth are skipped then valves say hello to pistons and the engine is toast. The JLR fix, along with the beefier timing chains, was a redesign of the guides and the tensioners mainly a hardened steel point/plug in each guide so the tensioner pin no longer digs a hole in it.
One reason why upgrading the chains is a bit expensive, you need to replace not just the chains but the guides, tensioners and cam sprockets as well.

 

I did watch the video that Dave Tibbs had done regarding the issue with the 5.0 timing chain. Makes perfect sense. Currently I have no noise coming from my engine that would suggest an issue involving my timing chain. My car has 63K miles on it and when I had the oil changed, my mechanic (whom I trust dearly) inspected the oil for any hint of metal shavings, to which he found none…not even in the filter. The oil was surprisingly cleaner than I had expected. Now, a piston may shoot through the bonnet today, but all I think I can do is monitor it. I would hate to spend several thousands of dollars for an issues that I don’t have yet (you know the old saying, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. Now do I worry about the possibility of slack developing, yes. But I don’t want to tarnish my driving experience by worrying about it. I am not doubting your knowledge and experience regarding this issue, and I value it.

 

Well listen to OzXFR as he hit all the points. So for you and any other early car I would make sure you listen VERY carefully on startup. I have never seen any car with tensioner problems that did NOT make noises!! You can catch it before disaster strikes. Many videos have been posted of what to listen for as there can be several different noises depending on exactly what's happening inside the engine. The downside is we have DI engines and they clatter a bit like a Diesel so these engines just make more mechanical noise than non-DI engines.

And no I would not change them either until I had good cause. Remember we only get the problem cars on the forum. Most people do not post on car forums ever. Many cars have traveled thousands of miles with no problems but we will never hear about them. Sometimes this is called the "silent evidence". BUT we know there is a problem and we know approximately what years are involved and we know Jaguar has released several upgrades over the years and stopped with the final upgrade in and around the 2014 model year. Depends on VIN as always.
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IMHO, the chain pitch (6.35mm vs 8mm) bears no relation on whether you will experience issues - the design flaw lay in the timing chain guides, where the metal backing the guide was softer than the pin on the tensioner, so it deformed over time, resulting in less tension on the chains.

One thing I will say is that obviously the different pitch chains are matched with both cam phasers/VVTs, crank sprockets, and fuel pump camshafts, and there were apparently a lot less 6.35mm originally made/purchased, and these parts are either running out or now completely unavailalble. This can result in an expensive job: a failing 6.35mm cam phaser could necessitate the replacement of all of the above parts to change to 8mm pitch if there are no longer spares available - I moved to 8mm when I rebuilt my engine as the parts prices were considerably cheaper.

 

Thanks gentlemen (OzXFR, clubairth1, and davetibbs) for all your insight. Dave, the video with the drawing and tensioners as props was an eyeopener. I do see that in time those timing guides will wear out, allowing pins on the tensioners to be come less effective. Currently I do not see or hear any evidence that would call for a replacement at the moment, clubairth1 and I do agree on that. It's a crap shoot, I know. For now, changing the oil (more than regularly) and monitoring the sound of the engine is my best bet. If the engine does lay and egg because of this issue, I will be the first to let you guys know, so that you can say "I told you so".

 

Well I think you will be pleasantly surprised and I predict you will have no problems.
Your smart to just watch for symptoms right now.
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Again, thanks for your help.

 

I thought this was a function of temperature? Just as they changed the plugs to a colder plug in 12 up cars?

Sorry for thread derail