Hey all,

I own a total of 2 4.0 SC cars, 2 4.2 SC cars and 0 5.0 sc cars :O) Being Im a member here I figured Id ask you all first. My truck which is my daily driver is worsening for the wear and although Im going to fix it (Modified Cayenne Turbo) Im thinking of replacing it after. I've always liked the Range Rover Sport Supercharged and was thinking of that as a replacement (used ). My heart wants to get a 5.0 SC version however I keep reading about timing chain issues and quite a few I see for sale have a "miss" which appears to be related to that. Being I have really no background on these engines except that they make real good power and potential systemic problems..... Do they all experience this? Is it a now or later thing? Do the replacement parts "fix" the issue? I usually do my own work but I'm very busy and likely don't want to pay for this job should it happen. Just looking for some feedback. I been through every Porsche related issue with my Cayenne,,,But I was aware upfront. Thanks all!

 

AND, I did read up on it and the differences in the smaller and larger diameter chains...But does it really happen this often?

 

Well I would stay with the latest year 5.0L you can afford. From all the info posted it looks like Jaguar did the last timing tension update somewhere around the 2014 model year. Now we have had later cars also develop problems but it's much more rare. I can't answer about how common it is other than the strange fact that we see a LOT more problems on the Land Rover side compared to the Jaguar side. Again Land Rover outsells Jaguar massively so that could explain it.

Whatever you buy see if you can get the oil change intervals. No real data but it does seem the extra long oil change intervals of 15K-16K miles is one of the major contributors to this problem. Also be aware that Jaguar mid-stream changed the oil from 5w-20 to 0w-20 with with no explanation?

I think your comment about your Porsche is the real key? Be aware of the problems and be on the lookout for the symptoms. Which for the Jaguar engines is to listen to the engine on start up and shut down with the car door open and the radio off. We have never seen a car just self destruct without making noises.

Please, please check all fluids regularly!! I can't tell you how many threads we have that start of the same way. I have never checked the oil in my car and now my engine is destroyed can I please sue somebody??

The last thing I always ask but can you DIY any repairs and maintenance? From your history I think you can so your way above the normal car owner!
It's getting harder and harder to get the dealers to work on older Jaguar's and I really don't know why? We have had several reports that after you tell the dealer what year car you have they say we don't work on those anymore?? Yet they call themselves a Jaguar dealer?
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Once again, clubairth1 comes through with some great advice But seriously, I have a 2010 XF 5.0L NA and I listen to it like I'm cracking a safe. But like one member told me, don't stress over it and ruin your driving experience.

 

I'm a forensic engineer so I always tend to do my homework before jumping in.. Why I'm kind of feeling this out. With the Porsche it has a few "not if but when issues" Some I knew about others I found out the hard way. One of the common issues is the plastic intake valley pipes. I changed mine out with metal ones solving that issue. What I didn't know about were these plastic coolant tees behind the motor that fail. Porsche is great at trying new state of the art materials out and well.... The job involves pulling the intake off and a lot of aggravation. Less aggravation than a timing chain guide swap though! This happened while warming the truck up. Last week I leaned against my bumper cover and it cracked. Perhaps its telling me something.

I do love the 4.2 engines but was looking for something a bit different. I may just look for one regardless of year that has the timing chain replacement done unless I get something 2015 and newer that may not have the issue. And one with service records. I do appreciate the info.

 

You know it really sucks this is an issue. With the 4.0 sc there were issues that the 4.2 really doesnt have timing guide wise. But Ive never had a timing related issue issue

 

They did make the RR Sport SC with 4.2 up until 2009. The things are ridiculously heavy, endless air suspension problems no matter which engine.

I'm biased to the 4.2 and I think anyone with history and familiarity to this motor should just stick with it. After a decade of refinement and stuck in a portion of nearly every JLR model made, the main issue remaining is coolant hoses and vacuum leaks. By the time the valley hose pops, the engine needs an overhaul anyway. And it still had a damn oil dipstick.

Just my opinion, but with the problems it has, the 5 liter was a downgrade. My XF is a daily driver, and the extra power is of no use to me on the street. I can get around any slow poke in a blink of an eye, and any more grunt would make the average commute even more frustrating. The thing is a bat out of hell and this is subjective, sounds way better than the 5.0. I would estimate the proportion of owners taking this pig to the track to make use of the power, is even less than SUV owners actually taking their rig off-road.

The timing chains you already know about. Enough failing to start a class action lawsuit against JLR, and comically Jaguar engines are not included, only LR/RR.

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...action-226748/

The water pumps. I don't know how many revisions but it looks like they will leak no matter what before 60k miles, seeing them go bad even starting at 30k. There are outliers but it also depends on how experienced the installer is to ensure a solid seal. The mating surface on the block itself is not designed properly so this will never be fixed. Just pump after pump for the rest of the cars life.

Coolant leaks looking worse, elbows etc formerly metal now brittle plastic. Alarmingly, this thing can dump coolant fast enough to seize the engine in under a minute. People don't notice the coolant low message, or think they have time to pull over, look for the leak etc, nope, they just killed their car. Most 5 liters meet their end this way I think.

Carbon build up, inherent for new direct injected design. My valley hose lasted 140k miles. Would the supercharger need to come off the 5 liter more often to keep it running well? I would say yeah.

Crank bearings, this one only seems rare but there is a disturbing amount of salvage 5.0 cars on auction sites with zero body/suspension damage. Engines turning but not running in description. Real root cause is oil starvation to the crank bearings that JLR will never own up to. There would be less of this if the oil change interval wasn't a straight up lie seemingly intended to take these cars off the road not long after the lease is up.

So most of these can be avoided with more frequent oil changes. But people that baby the car and do everything right still have engine randomly granading itself.

If I had to deal with the problems and risk the 5 liter has I would throw in the towel a long time ago. I suspect very few are daily drivers, and are not meant to last past 100k miles? Only reason I still own this car is because of the 4.2, period.

All personal opinion, blah blah etc, anyone is free to post how much better the 5 liter is and oh so powerful and faster with mods than the old engine could ever hope to be. Bragging rights it is then.

 

Well, I bought my 5.0 to be used as a daily driver...nd litteredwithfaults just let the air out of my tires Every forum I have read has basically said the 5.0 is a "ticking time bomb". A few things have been replaced on this car (water pump, fuel pump, intake manifold, and a few things have been replaced). The timing chain issue does worry me some, But like I've been told, if I just keep the oil changed (sooner than recommended) and "listen" to the engine, I can more than likely avoid catastrophic engine failure when the time comes. I'm sitting at 65K miles with currently no timing chain noises to be heard. Luckily I have my indy mechanic on stand by in the event that it's time to dive in. I love the car and would like to drive it a while. If I can make the 60 mile round trip to work and back four days a week, I will be content.

 

Yes I agree the 4.2L has less problems. And I have had a 4.2L SC and currently have the 5.0L SC.
What's puzzling to me is Jaguar released the 4.0L V-8. It had 2 major problems. Nikasil cylinder coatings and timing tension problems. After several updates and finally going to the 4.2L V-8 Jaguar pretty much got all the problems solved.

BUT then they came out with the 5.0L and we got timing tensioner problems back AGAIN. What happened Jaguar??? Seems like they either did not learn anything or what I have seen in other companies is all the older Engineers have left or retired and they have lost all their historical Engineering knowledge.
The new guys are just starting over again maybe?

I use my car as a daily driver and have done several multi thousand mile trips. That's what cars are made for right?
After 51K miles I have had 2 repairs. The water pump and plastic hoses under warranty at about 31K and I had a bad O2 sensor around 35K miles after the car was off warranty.
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I think you will find that the only problems with the Nikasil cylinder coatings was caused by bad USA (higher in sulpher I believe) gas. I had a 99 XJR that had nearly 200K on it and then I only scrapped it because it blew a head gasket. And the only problem with the timing chain tensioners was the plastic secondary tensioner which got brittle after 100K or so miles.

I rebuilt my 2010 5.0SC XFR engine (head gasket failure by previous owner) and only changed the two static guides which were showing signs or cracking. Chains, tensioners and moving guides were all fine after 120K (they could have been changed previously I don't know that). It was the original high quality 6.35mm pitch chains, much higher quality than the current 8mm chain. I think the 6.35mm one was too expensive so Tata Jag redesigned it to cut cost very early on and that is when the unreliability started IMHO. I am glad I retained it, purrs like a kitten !

I have rebuild 4 5.0SC engines, all failed because of stupid owners.

 

My goal...to not be a stupid owner.

 

That's interesting! So the earlier 6.35mm timing stuff is actually better than the revised 8mm stuff?
I thought the 6.35 stuff was almost impossible to find anymore too as all the current parts are for the 8mm stuff?

Yes Sulfur in the fuel but also a short start and stop sequence with a cold engine can cause the engine to lose all compression and can't be started again. Usually you need to put some oil in the cylinders to try and make the rings seal a bit until the engine can start and then fully seat the rings with combustion pressures. This problem happened everywhere in the world as I have seen dozens of posts concerning it.

But something still does not add up? If the 6.35 stuff was better why do the early 5.0L cars have much more problems with timing tensioners and such? Plus Jaguar did make at least 3 sets of changes on the 5.0L timing gear too.
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The issue here is that the quality of the timing chains themselves has nothing to do with the failures, which were down to a design flaw in the timing chain guides which were the same regardless of chain pitch until the design was fixed. There are a few threads about this, but essentially the aluminum on the back of the guides was softer than the pin of the tensioner behind them, so over time the metal deformed resulting in loss of tension on the chains.

However, on parts prices/availability alone, it's clear that JLR had a limited number of 6.35mm parts made/purchased, and that they've run out of stock of at least some of these parts - fuel pump cam, crank sprockets, VVTs, etc - these all have to match the pitch of the timing chains.

The 6.35mm chains themselves might well have been nicer hardware, but dealers are now (as far as I can see) swapping the chains to 8mm, at considerable expense to the owner, due to parts availbilty of the original 6.35mm pitch. If they (for example) have run out of all 6.35mm VVTs, a failing VVT will either require replacement with a used unit (not sure how happy I'd be fitting one), or necessitate a swap of the chains + all of the parts they interface with ($$$) to 8mm. When I rebuilt my engine the disparity in parts prices between the chain pitches even then meant it made sense to swap everything to 8mm.

 

I can only speak from my own experience, but I've owned an '09 XF SC (4.2 SC), an '11 XFR (5.0 SC - still own and love), a '12 Range Rover Sport Supercharged (5.0 SC), a '15 Range Rover Sport HSE (3.0 SC), and a '19 Range Rover Sport Supercharged Dynamic (5.0 SC - still own and tolerate), and I love the 5.0 SC engine. I've never had any big issues, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another car with that engine, as long as it was properly maintained, prior to purchase. Of course, some of the timing chain horror stories scare me, but I really believe that as long as you're fairly diligent about scheduled maintenance, it's a great engine.

 

I'm done worrying. It dilutes the enjoyment of my driving experience

 

Years back when I had time to really work on my cars for fun I wouldn't mind a timing chain challenge. But not so sure I'd want to not for it on a used vehicle perhaps if I find one with good majntanaxe records that already had the work done I'd be good. Then I'd hope the work was done well. I love my 4.2 sc!

 

davetibbs thanks again for your in-depth knowledge of these problems. I learn so much from your experiences.
So now I know the chain update is really a separate issue from the tensioners. This helps a lot with my confusion about what was what!
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I agree Dave. I just kept all my original 6.35mm parts as even after 100K miles they looked good, except for the two fixed guides which showed signs of cracking. So I replaced those. The moving guides showed no signs of wear but had plastic inserts for the tensioners to push on which seemed a nice feature.







Also I do not believe the lower chain (oil pump, fuel pumps) design was ever changed. I can't be totally sure and maybe you know because I never dismantled the bottom of the only 6.35mm I have rebuilt. But I don't believe in any case that the lower chain and the upper chains have to be the same type as there are no common components, the crank sprocket for the lower chain being a separate part.

 

I have access to ALLDATA and the interval for the 3 & 5L Jaguars for oil changes are 15-16k. Jaguar engineers had problems when the 3 &5L engines came out because of the oil they were using. It was causing camshaft bearing failures left and right! They did design, with Castrol a 5W20 Synthetic OE oil which for the longest time we could only buy from the dealership which was pricey! I also was unable to get an educated answer when they stopped selling the 5W20SYN OE oil and switched to 0W20 Synthetic. I know the dealership does recommend using the Castrol 0W20 Synthetic now which we have switched to as a Jaguar specific, family owned shop. The cost of oil changes went down pretty significantly, hoping no camshaft bearing failures in the future!

As for trying to find dealerships, or shops in general to work on older Jaguars, our biggest issue is finding parts. A lot of genuine Jaguar parts have been discontinued and quite frankly the Eurospare/URO gaskets (in our experience) have a higher likelihood of leaking vs the OE gaskets. We've specialized in Jaguars since my father opened our shop in 1993. He also worked at Hennessy Jaguar back in the early 80's and knows the V12 engine and earlier engines like the back of his hand-but they are indeed a pain to work on. When we decide to work on XJS' we have to be up front with our customers and let them know ahead of time for us to go forward with repairs they have to be "ALL IN". Meaning, if we run into an issue once we start taking parts off (brittle, cracked hoses, broken plastic pipes etc) we don't want to have to call and get the go ahead for every part that needs to be replaced. We do our best to create an estimate based on what the mechanic finds in his initial diagnosis but the likelihood of the estimate being the total cost is unrealistic. Having to fabricate parts, locate quality parts and making sure the car is perfect once it leaves our shop takes time-which not all customers understand. With that being said we've had quite a few XJS' owners go "ALL IN" and are incredibly happy with the results and happy to have a quality mechanic that understands how delicate these cars.

 

Would anybody know who to contact to find out if all the 5.0 blocks are the same not internals just the bear block