Hello everyone, been lurking for a while as I'm seriously considering a XF-R as my new fun daily driver. I currently have a Lotus Exige that I pretty much only track (but it is still registered so street legal). I live in Colorado so I need something AWD which my RS4 has filled nicely but as I picked up a 08 Pathfinder LE for dog/tow/camping duty I no longer need AWD in my fun/daily car so the RWD XF-R is now an option.

The biggest thing I'm worried about missing is the manual transmission. I just love rowing my own and really enjoy blipping the throttle as I pull to a stop (very easy car to heel-toe). So any RS4 owners here (or other manual sport sedans) that can weigh in? I'll never be "sold" on paddles so don't go there...

Currently looking for a 2010 black with red or tan interior. Anyone wanna trade??

A few pics of my current rides







Looking forward to joining the group soon, any pre-purchase advise is welcome. Not in a hurry, hope to buy before spring.

-Ross

 

That's what I thought. My very first automatic car was my XF. Like you, I never thought an automatic would do. Wrong. Manual transmissions are too slow.

I also own a chipped and coilovered 6 spd manual shift Audi S4 biturbo putting out roughly RS4 performance, down on power a bit fom a real RS4 but stupendous torque (over 350 lb ft). I prefer the XF with the ZF. Acceleration is on par with the contemporary RS4. It would be a quicker car with a DCT transmission.

Also, you may think you will prefer shifting for yourself but you won't. I thought I would mostly use the paddles as if still driving a manual shift but I hardly ever do. Software is so good now manual shifting is pointless and slower than automatic mode.

F1 had to make automatics illegal because they were quicker shifting than even the best driver. Sure, retain your manual shift car but be aware that you are slow. It's like insisting on a horse and carriage, nice hobby but if you're really serious get an automobile.

Nobody can shift better than the newest automatics. Period.

 

To me it is not about shifting faster, its about the feeling of rowing through the gears. I do not care if my shifting manually is slower, I am not racing my car when I am driving to work, a few tenths lost in shift time do not matter. Using the clutch and shifting the gears, feeling the car is what its about.

My Camaro and Corvette are manuals and I enjoy driving them in a way I cannot enjoy driving my XF. I find the XF to be a dog if left on its own to shift, it is much more enjoyable using the paddles in Dynamic Mode with the transmission in Sport, this is the only way I drive my XF.

LotusExige, I also felt the way you do about paddles, when I bought the XF I refused to use them for several months, I found myself loving the car but not enjoying driving it. One day I put the car in Dynamic Mode, trans in Sport and paddle shifted it, well what do you know, suddenly I was enjoying driving the car. I have loved driving it ever since.

The power, torque and refinement of the drive train, the beautiful interior the sexy shape of the car all make for a wonderful sedan and mine is 'only' the 4.2 supercharged with 420 hp and 407 lbft. I can only imagine what the new XFR's are like to drive.

No other car offers the complete package (minus the manual trans) that the XF offers. Imho, the paddles make up for the only short coming.

LotusExige, I know you said you will never be sold on paddles, I was just like you, you owe it to yourself to try them out in an XF.

 

Oh, I agree. Nothing quite so satisfying as a perfectly executed double clutch downshift, heel and toe all the way. Just don't be under any illusion that you are thereby driving any better. Just as synchronized gearboxes took the skill out of shifting, the newest automatics make shifting an anachronism, like being able to reverse a horse and cart. I like sailing for similar reasons.

I, too, thought I would never be happy driving in fully utomatic mode. Instead, I find great pleasure in driving a car with such an exquisitely capable automatic. You just don't need to shift it at all. In fact, I hardly ever use sport mode either. Most often I use it to lock into a selected gear for really tricky snowy driving, usually to hold second gear for very low grip situations. ironic really.

I've never tried to drive a proper crash gearbox which would be the way to go if you truly wished to exercise shifting skills. Even full on track cars are using sequential gearboxes or even DCT type automatics now because proper racing cars don't even use crash boxes anymore.

 

The XF doesn't have to have the paddle shifters activated to blip the throttle. It somewhat does it in drive.....switch over to Sport + Dynamic mode, it will blip the throttle better than the Audi with the manual.

Just warning, if you do test drive the car, you will end up buying.

 

I used to think manual shifting my MR2T and SupraTT was an integral part of the enjoyment in driving those cars on the street, and extensively on the track...and maybe with those cars it was. When looking for a new toy last year a track buddy convinced me that he had suffered no withdrawal or regrets when adding his auto/paddles GT-R to his IT-R and NSX track toys. His data-logging even showed quicker laps in full auto.

I bought the XKR and within 24 hours had it on a road course, and lost any concern about manual shifting on Lap One. I've only ocassionally experimented with the paddles out of curiosity, and not from any desire to do it myself. Maybe it's the sound of the engine and exhaust, the marvelous throttle blipping and rev-matching going into corners, or the perfect upshifts that don't upset the car's balance through long exits. And it is definitely the huge reserves of power at any speed, and in any gear. It is impossible to catch these cars out of their powerband. I'm more impressed with the shifting abilities of this car than I ever was with my own shifting...and I remember the day and corner where I first perfected my heel and toe!

Are you sure you want a 4 door now...or might a nice XKR suit you? Either way they share the same engine and suspension I understand. Good luck!

Bruce

 

You are keeping the Exige - I expect you will get all the interaction you need from that on road or track, and will find the XFR to provide something totally different to that or your RS4. I came to the XFR from an S4 Auto (would have loved an RS4 but overpriced in US spec in my opinion) so not quite a comparable move, but I don't think you will regret it. It is a way more involving drive than any Quattro Audi. The beauty of the XFR is in how well it does everything - big comfy sofa that can pootle around with no driver effort needed, immediately switching to full-on supercar with masses of involvement. They are lovely and predictable but can be provoked much more than a Quattro. Loads more fun. The gear change stuff doesn't even come into it. I love using the paddles, while recognising that the box is better left to its own devices.

My 2011 XFR is for sale, incidentally. https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/p...2-000-a-86558/

 

darlo,

Are you replacing it with another Jaguar?

 

Thanks for the input some of you - I guess I hoped by saying I would never be "sold" on automatics (or any sort of paddle shifted gearbox) that we could steer clear of that argument but alas this car forum appears like all the rest, no one listens. Oh well, I suppose that's just how the internet works.

Those of you arguing about how great paddles are are completely and totally missing the point - shifting gears is part of the experience, part of the connection to the car that I really enjoy. Yes, I'll be keeping the Exige but probably only drive it on the street 10 times a year (aside from my trips in it to the track). So think of it as a toy, not as a car I actually drive.

I went and test drove a 2011 XF Supercharged today and it was exactly as I expected - I really missed my manual. Yes, it shifts fast. Yes, it shifts smooth. Yes, it blips on the downshifts. Yes, it rev-matches faster than I can. But I WANT to shift it. I want to blip it. I want to be able to put the clutch in and rev-rev-rev the throttle because, well, because I can. I constantly blip the throttle in my RS as I roll to a stop because, well, it sounds amazing (BTW I only do this when I'm not around anyone as I don't want to seem like I'm "revving" my engine, etc.).

I still believe I'll get one - but I also know I'm really going to miss the manual. It's a fantastically nice car, but I will say when I climbed back into my RS4 I didn't feel like I was missing out on a ton. I'm hoping/assuming the extra power/etc. in the XF-R will make up for that. A friend just pointed out that the RS4 might be the car that 10 years from now I wish I'd never sold. I don't think the XF-R will ever reach that level for me.

As for wanting a 4 door you're totally right Bruce, I don't need one but honestly I don't want something a flash as the XK-R. When my budget allows I'll own an Aston V8 Vantage for sure, aside from that or a Maserati GranTurismo there aren't many that I'd go for (both of those are so amazing looking that I'll have one). So oddly everything else is in a middle place for me - too flash for daily driving but not flash enough to be "holy **** that's amazing!!!". I love the sleeper/understated elegance/power of the XF-R. That's one of the things I love about my current RS4.

So any other manual lovers that switched to the XK-R, your thoughts? Again please don't try to "sell" me on it, more how much am I going to miss my beloved manual.

-Ross

 

No, not missing the point at all. With all due respect it is you who misses the point, of the Jaguar (and probably the imminent and inevitable death of the manual shift transmission, but that's for another day).

You specifically asked about " missing the manual transmission" so why so surprised when everybody addresses exactly that point?

You won't, miss it that is. Nor will you feel the need to use the paddles to shift instead.

Just BTW, no Jaguar sold in North America comes with a manual shift and it is unlikely one ever will. Why? Because the manual shift is dead as a dodo. Only "toy" cars will have them for those of us who remember how to drive them. Nobody else wants one.

Crikey, you probably still use fold out maps.....

 

LotusExige,

No way would I try to convince you that shifting gears is not fun, but I live in Atlanta, GA and shifting gears will wear you out. If I lived in an area that shifting would be fun, there would be no question as to the tranny I would want. A lot of the decision would be on where you live. Open road, shift it baby!! Big city, let the car do the work.

 

LotusExige,

First, as I drive around the Denver metro area, I'm fairly certain that I have to only XFR in Colorado. If, by some chance, you were to get an XFR, we'd probably have to start some sort of club.

Second, the Exige gives me carwood. I'm assuming that you take it out to High Plains? Several of my friends and I are hoping to head out there in the spring for a little lapping.

Finally, and more to the point, you're never going to replace the visceral feeling of shifting gears. There is a mechanical connected aspect of it that will always be in your blood. That said, I'm in love with my XFR. I look back at my car as I leave it in the parking lot, and get excited to drive it when I get back in. I get nonstop compliments about it everywhere I go. I drove a lot of cars before landing on the Jag, but none of them really gave me that feeling. If you get the XFR, I don't think you'll regret it.

 

Extremely helpful post Rakka, thanks so much. Any chance you'd have time to meet up and show me your baby? I'm rather flexible and as you know they are extremely rare. Either way I'd love to meet up with you at the track, I'm a certified PCA and BMW national instructor and do some private instruction on the side (very reasonable rates). Hope to have the R by then and I'm sure I'll take it out at least once to really see what she can do.

Got an error trying to send you a PM - I'm Ross at jasbone dot com, hope to hear from you.

As for not getting it let me be clear
- yes, 98% of drivers want auto
- auto/DSG gearboxes shift faster than any human
- they blip downshifts beautifully
- in traffic they are great (I drive in very little traffic)
- they are the future, hell Ferrari doesn't even offer one any longer, right?

They still are less fun in every way. As for implying I'm just old school I'm the Director of Technology for a tech based venture capital firm. 2012 was a good year for is. I'm about as dorky, cutting edge as they come so I appreciate the tech - it just removes part of the connection for me. I think the paddles will suffice, there are always trade offs, no one perfect car. That said this is pretty close isn't it?

 

I actually come from a 2001 S4 (RS4) and the only thing people have got me worried about is the reliability of these things. I am on the fence about pulling the trigger too!

However, when in Sport mode you will enjoy how these things drive. You can row in the Lotus and relax in the Jaaaag.

 

You can't be serious! Audi are just awful cars to service. Of the three main German Marques only Mercedes deserves their reputation for engineering prowess and reliability and then only for their S range.

Audis are poorly engineered and poorly manufactured. They look great but are basically unserviceable.

Check the unsprung weight of the S4 suspension, the upright alone must weigh over 20 lbs.

Ever try to replace a thermostat or a water pump on an Audi?

The XF is extremely well engineered and generally well built. Quality control is better than Audi has ever had.

 

Are you serious? You must of not had an Audi or a Mercedes since the 80s then.

Mercedes is the well engineered one? Wow. The only part of Mercedes that makes a reliable car is AMG and sadly they handle like horse carriages.

The Audis are notorious for suspension issues but look at any great handling car (BMW) and youll see that it's the roses thorne.

I would say recheck your PRESENT German car facts and report back.

I agree the XF is well engineered but seems the Jaguar dealerships have pretty comfortable waiting rooms...

That's the only reason I havent bought one yet.

 

I have the same 2001 S4 you refer to. Design dates back to 1995. Latest S4 uses exactly the same engineering, my friend owns one.

The thermostat and water pump are behind the timing belt. To get that off to reach the thermostat requires removal of the front of the car. I could go on....

The Jaguar is a much better engineered and built car than the comparable Audi.

I'm not the only one who thinks so.....

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...hrottle-87349/

 

Actually, I dont believe you do.
Mine was 600awhp. I'll take "bad engineering" like that any day of the week.

All cars have different service positions. Some audis did need the front to come partially off.

I guess my 911 Turbo must be pretty badly engineered too because they put the engine in the wrong place and it takes 6 hours to do spark plug changes

 

600 whp from 2.7 liters seems unlikely, but you believe whatever you want. Torque is all that really matters for street driving. Did your dyno whizz give you the wheel torque by chance? The most significant increase in performance available from that engine is to switch from the low pressure turbo software to a high pressure turbo software. The strange thing is why Audi released the S4 with no more torque than a SAAB four cylinder turbo when it was a reflash away. Probably didn't fancy the warranty costs of blown turbos by incompetent drivers. Every B5 Audi has to be dismantled to change the thermostat. To change a wheel bearing on an old one you may have to remove the entire front suspension on one side. The list of dumb design errors is pretty much endless. The newest Audis are even worse!

Given that one of the top tuners in Germany, MTM, can't improve the torque figures by much over their own stage 1 software and Audi only approached 400 hp with the RS4 version (tuned by Cosworth), achieving less peak torque with K-04 turbos than my stage 1 MTM with stock K-03 then I say BS to your 600 whp.

Yes, even Porsche has finally admitted that their 911 is poorly engineered by refusing to power their own Cayman with the same engine, even though it fits just fine. For heavens sake, the latest 911 now uses exactly the same engine as the new Cayman but tuned for more hp. How cynical is that!

Jaguar makes a better road car for daily driving than any of the competing German makers.

It's way cheaper too, both to buy and to service, go figure.

 

Turkish it seems you and I are on the exact same page - I'm not sure what Jagular is smoking as it seems every statement out of his mouth is beyond me. Seems he's just on a rant and can't see anything other than an automatic Jag - honestly I wish he's stop replying to my thread as I'd like someone that has actual experience to chime in. But oh well that's what you get on the 'net isn't it? People spewing stuff out like it's gospel when it's just their opinion. First he tries to "sell" me that autos are better than manuals (something I stated specifically in my first post) and then to say that Merc is ahead of Audi/BMW in terms of quality? He lost me in his first post and has confirmed that over and over each time he opens his mouth.

Oh, and I've seen plenty of 600+whp B5 S4s around. Have a good friend with one pushing 500whp on stock internals so it's really not that hard to get that motor to those power ranges.

Anyone else feel like chiming in? Anyone that's actually owned a high-end manual that switched to the XFR?