Audi RS4 -> XFR anyone?
#21
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2012 Initial Quality Study Press Release | J.D. Power
Seems to me that j d power puts Jaguar ahead of Audi by a long way.
Mercedes does just pip BMW some way ahead of Audi but well behind Jaguar.
I've got files of work orders proving my S4 is pretty much crap compared to my XF. The Jaguar is much cheaper, cost about the same in 2008 as the Audi did in 2001.
I've seen the claims for output of the S4 motor but not the dyno sheets or correction factors used to calculate the claims. 500 whp on stock internals of an S4 engine is just a time bomb, not an engine you can drive every day.
Facts are inconvenient when you begin with a predisposition: you seem hopelessly biased in favour of your obsolete manual transmission and wish to be talked into the automatic. However, when the facts are communicated you deny them.
Seems to me that j d power puts Jaguar ahead of Audi by a long way.
Mercedes does just pip BMW some way ahead of Audi but well behind Jaguar.
I've got files of work orders proving my S4 is pretty much crap compared to my XF. The Jaguar is much cheaper, cost about the same in 2008 as the Audi did in 2001.
I've seen the claims for output of the S4 motor but not the dyno sheets or correction factors used to calculate the claims. 500 whp on stock internals of an S4 engine is just a time bomb, not an engine you can drive every day.
Facts are inconvenient when you begin with a predisposition: you seem hopelessly biased in favour of your obsolete manual transmission and wish to be talked into the automatic. However, when the facts are communicated you deny them.
#22
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First, it's stupid to go on a forum and ask for opinions on purchasing a product.
You know why? You will have people saying go ahead and make the switch and others who will say the opposite. Where does that leave you?....back to making your own decision.
Second, 09XFSUPER (who loves manual trasmissions) concluded on buying the XFR. Followed by me, Darlo, Bruce H and others.
After all of the balanced and helpful comments, you are still asking for people's opinions. You drove the car. Do you like it? If you do, then go buy it.
Last edited by Executive; 12-30-2012 at 03:11 PM.
#23
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Do you really like the XFR? Do you have any interest in purchasing it, because it seems to me that you don't.
Where does that leave you?....back to making your own decision.
After all of the balanced and helpful comments, you are still asking for people's opinions.
You drove the car. Do you like it? If you do, then go buy it.
Facts are inconvenient when you begin with a predisposition: you seem hopelessly biased in favour of your obsolete manual transmission and wish to be talked into the automatic.
#25
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Anyone else want to provide any other relevant input?
#26
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I have a 2010 SC.
I have owned as daily driivers:
2008 BMW 335i coupe Manual
2001 Audi s4 (chipped) Manual
1993 (3rd Gen) RX-7 Heavily modded (scary car) Obviously Manual
83 VW Scirroco Manual
78 VW Rabbit Manual
I also have owned an AC Cobra with a worked 351 Windsor with a 5 speed Tremec (scarier car)
I enjoy manual shifting and the "connection" to the driving experience and the drivetrain, a nicely meshed downshift, etc etc.
I don't miss manual shifting in my Jag. It is an amazing machine with all sorts of attributes to enjoy. I occasionally put it in S and Dynamic...but mainly drive it in plain old "D" and its a gas most times I do.
Don't mind Jagular...he is a man of his convictions!
I have owned as daily driivers:
2008 BMW 335i coupe Manual
2001 Audi s4 (chipped) Manual
1993 (3rd Gen) RX-7 Heavily modded (scary car) Obviously Manual
83 VW Scirroco Manual
78 VW Rabbit Manual
I also have owned an AC Cobra with a worked 351 Windsor with a 5 speed Tremec (scarier car)
I enjoy manual shifting and the "connection" to the driving experience and the drivetrain, a nicely meshed downshift, etc etc.
I don't miss manual shifting in my Jag. It is an amazing machine with all sorts of attributes to enjoy. I occasionally put it in S and Dynamic...but mainly drive it in plain old "D" and its a gas most times I do.
Don't mind Jagular...he is a man of his convictions!
Last edited by cwood; 12-30-2012 at 09:15 PM.
#27
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Bruce
#28
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LotusExige,
I apologize. Most of the ruckus was my fault due to almost online high-fiving you for having an awesome car.
Id actually like to chat with you over PM as I seem to be in the same EXACT boat as you are.
Before I go, Jagular.
MTM hasnt properly built a B5 S4 in 5+ years.
Here are 2 (out of the MANY 600WHP+) S4 builds.
Feast your eyes boys...
AMD 770R: MS109 Base Tune 666whp - Clutch Slip & 1.8 sec GPS Verified FATS
gearhead1186's EPL Tial 605->770->HTA2868 .64 Build
I apologize. Most of the ruckus was my fault due to almost online high-fiving you for having an awesome car.
Id actually like to chat with you over PM as I seem to be in the same EXACT boat as you are.
Before I go, Jagular.
MTM hasnt properly built a B5 S4 in 5+ years.
Here are 2 (out of the MANY 600WHP+) S4 builds.
Feast your eyes boys...
AMD 770R: MS109 Base Tune 666whp - Clutch Slip & 1.8 sec GPS Verified FATS
gearhead1186's EPL Tial 605->770->HTA2868 .64 Build
#29
![Default](/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif)
To me it is not about shifting faster, its about the feeling of rowing through the gears. I do not care if my shifting manually is slower, I am not racing my car when I am driving to work, a few tenths lost in shift time do not matter. Using the clutch and shifting the gears, feeling the car is what its about.
My Camaro and Corvette are manuals and I enjoy driving them in a way I cannot enjoy driving my XF. I find the XF to be a dog if left on its own to shift, it is much more enjoyable using the paddles in Dynamic Mode with the transmission in Sport, this is the only way I drive my XF.
LotusExige, I also felt the way you do about paddles, when I bought the XF I refused to use them for several months, I found myself loving the car but not enjoying driving it. One day I put the car in Dynamic Mode, trans in Sport and paddle shifted it, well what do you know, suddenly I was enjoying driving the car. I have loved driving it ever since.
The power, torque and refinement of the drive train, the beautiful interior the sexy shape of the car all make for a wonderful sedan and mine is 'only' the 4.2 supercharged with 420 hp and 407 lbft. I can only imagine what the new XFR's are like to drive.
No other car offers the complete package (minus the manual trans) that the XF offers. Imho, the paddles make up for the only short coming.
LotusExige, I know you said you will never be sold on paddles, I was just like you, you owe it to yourself to try them out in an XF.
My Camaro and Corvette are manuals and I enjoy driving them in a way I cannot enjoy driving my XF. I find the XF to be a dog if left on its own to shift, it is much more enjoyable using the paddles in Dynamic Mode with the transmission in Sport, this is the only way I drive my XF.
LotusExige, I also felt the way you do about paddles, when I bought the XF I refused to use them for several months, I found myself loving the car but not enjoying driving it. One day I put the car in Dynamic Mode, trans in Sport and paddle shifted it, well what do you know, suddenly I was enjoying driving the car. I have loved driving it ever since.
The power, torque and refinement of the drive train, the beautiful interior the sexy shape of the car all make for a wonderful sedan and mine is 'only' the 4.2 supercharged with 420 hp and 407 lbft. I can only imagine what the new XFR's are like to drive.
No other car offers the complete package (minus the manual trans) that the XF offers. Imho, the paddles make up for the only short coming.
LotusExige, I know you said you will never be sold on paddles, I was just like you, you owe it to yourself to try them out in an XF.
I abide by comments above and I have owned a BMW e39 M5 6spd and BMW e36 M3 sedan 5spd, I enjoy driving the XF as much as either of those and the interior/exterior is much more pleasing.
LotusExige, perhaps this helps you perhaps it doesn't. Good luck in your search for the right car for you.
#30
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Haven't been back on the forum in a while since getting my XF SC. Felt like I had to pop on and respond to this though, and get my year's worth of ranting in one post. Not sure why everyone has to be so defensive to someone's comments just because they disagree or it is negative against their car, jagular's comments always seem to be well formed, backed with related info, and as valid as anyone else's opinions to me
.
I came from owning nothing but manuals for the past 4 cars, last being an Evo X GSR, and recently popped in a loaner X MR and an M3 to see if I missed that type of car at all. In short, they are very fun but, I was happy to get back to my XF for the ride home.
Yes, rowing gears is fun and if you can't get your kicks rowing one on the toy car (I get mine on a ZX10R and thinking of picking up an mr2 project car) on track days by all means pass on the XFR and get an M5 or something, I was shopping between both myself at the time. If you're passionate about an all around, kidneys-in-your-seat experience during your day to day shuffles but want all the amenities, comfort, and frankly the bling then the XF's are a good choice.
Obviously can't pivot around the on/off ramps at ridiculous Evo speeds but it's still got plenty and more of grip and go for enjoyment and it's still a great feeling once you get down the motions of smoothly flipping on dynamic mode, twisting the knob to S and popping the down paddle 1 or 2 times. For me that replaced the satisfaction of rowing, along with popping into sport for manual downshifts at the light, popping into neutral when my inner adolescent can't get enough of the rev-rev so I can blip all I want while I left foot brake to the light, etc. In my mind all of that nullified the "gotta have a manual to enjoy it" thoughts I had and points you mentioned when I picked up mine. I felt like you could get almost all the same fun out of it, just had to do it differently with knobs and buttons instead of a stick. I'm an IT geek myself so challenge accepted. Sure on some occasions I've been left cursing at the ZF for not shifting down as far as I wanted to, or misunderstanding my attempt to lazily pass for something more aggressive, but that's my fault for trading off the manual shifting to setting it in D so I can be lazy in traffic. At least I had that option. Also if something like an RS4 or M5 rolls by, I may be sticking my head out the window oogling but most people wouldn't know the difference with the mundane and plentiful A4's, 535's, or whatever. For some reason the XF always gets more compliments than other cars I've been in, it just has a bit more presence and was quite rare at the time.
It's definitely a car you can be passionate about and I feel like it'll hold its own for quite a while. It's definitely biased to be a great every day car vs. a collector's toy though. Hope any of that helped, good luck.
![Confused](https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif)
I came from owning nothing but manuals for the past 4 cars, last being an Evo X GSR, and recently popped in a loaner X MR and an M3 to see if I missed that type of car at all. In short, they are very fun but, I was happy to get back to my XF for the ride home.
Yes, rowing gears is fun and if you can't get your kicks rowing one on the toy car (I get mine on a ZX10R and thinking of picking up an mr2 project car) on track days by all means pass on the XFR and get an M5 or something, I was shopping between both myself at the time. If you're passionate about an all around, kidneys-in-your-seat experience during your day to day shuffles but want all the amenities, comfort, and frankly the bling then the XF's are a good choice.
Obviously can't pivot around the on/off ramps at ridiculous Evo speeds but it's still got plenty and more of grip and go for enjoyment and it's still a great feeling once you get down the motions of smoothly flipping on dynamic mode, twisting the knob to S and popping the down paddle 1 or 2 times. For me that replaced the satisfaction of rowing, along with popping into sport for manual downshifts at the light, popping into neutral when my inner adolescent can't get enough of the rev-rev so I can blip all I want while I left foot brake to the light, etc. In my mind all of that nullified the "gotta have a manual to enjoy it" thoughts I had and points you mentioned when I picked up mine. I felt like you could get almost all the same fun out of it, just had to do it differently with knobs and buttons instead of a stick. I'm an IT geek myself so challenge accepted. Sure on some occasions I've been left cursing at the ZF for not shifting down as far as I wanted to, or misunderstanding my attempt to lazily pass for something more aggressive, but that's my fault for trading off the manual shifting to setting it in D so I can be lazy in traffic. At least I had that option. Also if something like an RS4 or M5 rolls by, I may be sticking my head out the window oogling but most people wouldn't know the difference with the mundane and plentiful A4's, 535's, or whatever. For some reason the XF always gets more compliments than other cars I've been in, it just has a bit more presence and was quite rare at the time.
It's definitely a car you can be passionate about and I feel like it'll hold its own for quite a while. It's definitely biased to be a great every day car vs. a collector's toy though. Hope any of that helped, good luck.
#32
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I miss having a manual transmission, but I have been missing it for 14 years. I am probably going to buy a 2 door ragtop 5/6 speed car after I do my taxes this year assuming there will be anything left over. The Jaguar does such a good job, I find myself driving it in S, with Dynamic Mode on and Traction Control completely turned off 99% of the time shifting it with the paddles. Unfortunately it just makes the itch worse.
I spent a week in Cancun in October and drove a 5spd manual Chevy Matiz@! for the entire week including a few road trips, Playa Del Carmen twice and Chichen Itza. The car was terrible but I loved rowing the gears so much I didn't care.
I spent a week in Cancun in October and drove a 5spd manual Chevy Matiz@! for the entire week including a few road trips, Playa Del Carmen twice and Chichen Itza. The car was terrible but I loved rowing the gears so much I didn't care.
#33
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Subaru BRZ/Scion FRS.
Slow but extremely fun to drive. Cheap to buy and presumably cheap to run.
Use the Jaguar for the daily driver and the Subota for windy roads on the weekend. It will also make a great little casual track car. Or the MX5 (Miata)k one of the sweetest handling steers on the planet. Corner at 100 km/hr (60 mph) and feel like a hero. Drive a Porsche that slowly and you're just another middle aged zero looking for a date.
Slow but extremely fun to drive. Cheap to buy and presumably cheap to run.
Use the Jaguar for the daily driver and the Subota for windy roads on the weekend. It will also make a great little casual track car. Or the MX5 (Miata)k one of the sweetest handling steers on the planet. Corner at 100 km/hr (60 mph) and feel like a hero. Drive a Porsche that slowly and you're just another middle aged zero looking for a date.
Last edited by jagular; 12-31-2012 at 02:41 PM.
#34
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Haven't been back on the forum in a while since getting my XF SC. Felt like I had to pop on and respond to this though, and get my year's worth of ranting in one post. Not sure why everyone has to be so defensive to someone's comments just because they disagree or it is negative against their car, jagular's comments always seem to be well formed, backed with related info, and as valid as anyone else's opinions to me
.
I came from owning nothing but manuals for the past 4 cars, last being an Evo X GSR, and recently popped in a loaner X MR and an M3 to see if I missed that type of car at all. In short, they are very fun but, I was happy to get back to my XF for the ride home.
Yes, rowing gears is fun and if you can't get your kicks rowing one on the toy car (I get mine on a ZX10R and thinking of picking up an mr2 project car) on track days by all means pass on the XFR and get an M5 or something, I was shopping between both myself at the time. If you're passionate about an all around, kidneys-in-your-seat experience during your day to day shuffles but want all the amenities, comfort, and frankly the bling then the XF's are a good choice.
Obviously can't pivot around the on/off ramps at ridiculous Evo speeds but it's still got plenty and more of grip and go for enjoyment and it's still a great feeling once you get down the motions of smoothly flipping on dynamic mode, twisting the knob to S and popping the down paddle 1 or 2 times. For me that replaced the satisfaction of rowing, along with popping into sport for manual downshifts at the light, popping into neutral when my inner adolescent can't get enough of the rev-rev so I can blip all I want while I left foot brake to the light, etc. In my mind all of that nullified the "gotta have a manual to enjoy it" thoughts I had and points you mentioned when I picked up mine. I felt like you could get almost all the same fun out of it, just had to do it differently with knobs and buttons instead of a stick. I'm an IT geek myself so challenge accepted. Sure on some occasions I've been left cursing at the ZF for not shifting down as far as I wanted to, or misunderstanding my attempt to lazily pass for something more aggressive, but that's my fault for trading off the manual shifting to setting it in D so I can be lazy in traffic. At least I had that option. Also if something like an RS4 or M5 rolls by, I may be sticking my head out the window oogling but most people wouldn't know the difference with the mundane and plentiful A4's, 535's, or whatever. For some reason the XF always gets more compliments than other cars I've been in, it just has a bit more presence and was quite rare at the time.
It's definitely a car you can be passionate about and I feel like it'll hold its own for quite a while. It's definitely biased to be a great every day car vs. a collector's toy though. Hope any of that helped, good luck.
![Confused](https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif)
I came from owning nothing but manuals for the past 4 cars, last being an Evo X GSR, and recently popped in a loaner X MR and an M3 to see if I missed that type of car at all. In short, they are very fun but, I was happy to get back to my XF for the ride home.
Yes, rowing gears is fun and if you can't get your kicks rowing one on the toy car (I get mine on a ZX10R and thinking of picking up an mr2 project car) on track days by all means pass on the XFR and get an M5 or something, I was shopping between both myself at the time. If you're passionate about an all around, kidneys-in-your-seat experience during your day to day shuffles but want all the amenities, comfort, and frankly the bling then the XF's are a good choice.
Obviously can't pivot around the on/off ramps at ridiculous Evo speeds but it's still got plenty and more of grip and go for enjoyment and it's still a great feeling once you get down the motions of smoothly flipping on dynamic mode, twisting the knob to S and popping the down paddle 1 or 2 times. For me that replaced the satisfaction of rowing, along with popping into sport for manual downshifts at the light, popping into neutral when my inner adolescent can't get enough of the rev-rev so I can blip all I want while I left foot brake to the light, etc. In my mind all of that nullified the "gotta have a manual to enjoy it" thoughts I had and points you mentioned when I picked up mine. I felt like you could get almost all the same fun out of it, just had to do it differently with knobs and buttons instead of a stick. I'm an IT geek myself so challenge accepted. Sure on some occasions I've been left cursing at the ZF for not shifting down as far as I wanted to, or misunderstanding my attempt to lazily pass for something more aggressive, but that's my fault for trading off the manual shifting to setting it in D so I can be lazy in traffic. At least I had that option. Also if something like an RS4 or M5 rolls by, I may be sticking my head out the window oogling but most people wouldn't know the difference with the mundane and plentiful A4's, 535's, or whatever. For some reason the XF always gets more compliments than other cars I've been in, it just has a bit more presence and was quite rare at the time.
It's definitely a car you can be passionate about and I feel like it'll hold its own for quite a while. It's definitely biased to be a great every day car vs. a collector's toy though. Hope any of that helped, good luck.
#35
![Default](/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Subaru BRZ/Scion FRS.
Slow but extremely fun to drive. Cheap to buy and presumably cheap to run.
Use the Jaguar for the daily driver and the Subota for windy roads on the weekend. It will also make a great little casual track car. Or the MX5 (Miata)k one of the sweetest handling steers on the planet. Corner at 100 km/hr (60 mph) and feel like a hero. Drive a Porsche that slowly and you're just another middle aged zero looking for a date.
Slow but extremely fun to drive. Cheap to buy and presumably cheap to run.
Use the Jaguar for the daily driver and the Subota for windy roads on the weekend. It will also make a great little casual track car. Or the MX5 (Miata)k one of the sweetest handling steers on the planet. Corner at 100 km/hr (60 mph) and feel like a hero. Drive a Porsche that slowly and you're just another middle aged zero looking for a date.
#36
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I abide by comments above and I have owned a BMW e39 M5 6spd and BMW e36 M3 sedan 5spd, I enjoy driving the XF as much as either of those and the interior/exterior is much more pleasing.
LotusExige, perhaps this helps you perhaps it doesn't. Good luck in your search for the right car for you.
LotusExige, perhaps this helps you perhaps it doesn't. Good luck in your search for the right car for you.
#37
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You have to be a midget to get into and out of an Exige. With the Subie or Mazda even an old feller can get in and out without looking a ****.
The ZF gearbox can be moved from N to D and back again easily using the selector, as for almost all automatics. You can't shift out of gear using the paddles, nor can you select reverse or park. Sounds like you not only prefer manual shifts you can't actually drive an automatic, which is a bit worrying. The R is for reverse, just so you know.
The rev-rev reference is a little mystifying. Surely you can't be referring to revving the engine up and down in neutral, while stationary? I mean, really?
I really don't think you're a Jaguar man, you won't like the way they drive at all. Stick with the hair shirt, you'll be happier.
The ZF gearbox can be moved from N to D and back again easily using the selector, as for almost all automatics. You can't shift out of gear using the paddles, nor can you select reverse or park. Sounds like you not only prefer manual shifts you can't actually drive an automatic, which is a bit worrying. The R is for reverse, just so you know.
The rev-rev reference is a little mystifying. Surely you can't be referring to revving the engine up and down in neutral, while stationary? I mean, really?
I really don't think you're a Jaguar man, you won't like the way they drive at all. Stick with the hair shirt, you'll be happier.
Last edited by jagular; 12-31-2012 at 04:08 PM.
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jagular (01-01-2013)
#39
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Yes even from a slow roll you can switch to N, rev, back to D and keep rolling. I'm sure the more mature owners are squirming but the transmission handles it gracefully as long as you let it wind down to a reasonable rpm before reengaging. It sorts itself out before going.
To each their own, the xfr really sounds nice I wouldn't blame you for wanting to do that every now and then but it blips beautifully on its own if you just tap the paddles down. That's the beauty of it to me, this car panders to a wide range of people.
Can't do it with the paddles that I'm aware of, and switching from S all the way to N is a little more tricky. Would have been nice to force neutral by holding both paddles or something but no such luck.
To each their own, the xfr really sounds nice I wouldn't blame you for wanting to do that every now and then but it blips beautifully on its own if you just tap the paddles down. That's the beauty of it to me, this car panders to a wide range of people.
Can't do it with the paddles that I'm aware of, and switching from S all the way to N is a little more tricky. Would have been nice to force neutral by holding both paddles or something but no such luck.
#40
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One thing I don't like, I want the DSC "Dynamic Stability Control" OFF and when you move between modes say to nuetral for a little rev (4,000 rpm limit) and go back to S (Sport) DSC comes back on and you have to turn it off again which takes a long 30 seconds of holding a button down. Trac-DCS just takes 5 seconds or so but still limits how fast you can destroy your tires.