11 seconds to go from DSC or TRAC to off.

The default re-engagement of traction control is for safety. Because this technology is so reliable now the suspension can be tuned more aggressively. This makes for a less stable and more interesting car than could be safely unleashed on John Q Public previously.

The trade off is the driver is required to very deliberately switch off any driver aids. Note that ABS cannot be switched off. There's a very good reason for that.

Bear in mind that even the new McLaren has a very sophisticated stability control system which their engineers intend you never switch off. In their words:" why on earth would you want to?".

The Ferrari 458 Italia is pretty scary even with the stability control engaged, pretty much for experts only with it switched off, according to reports from the press and a friend of mine who has tracked one.

Everybody thinks they are an above average driver. To find out if you actually are compare your lap times with stability control on or off. I am confident you won't like the result.

Bear in mind that F1 banned these systems just before Senna died.... Food for thought.

 

Here's an Aston V8 Vantage comparison review thread from the XK/XKR forum. It covers many enthusiast driver's considerations including manual shifting. This is a car I carefully researched, along with the Maserati, before discovering the XKR. I saw the latter at the last lapping day at Mosport, and it really is beautiful...slow, but beautiful Okay, its driver's skill level was unknown...but still my bitch on Lap One!

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...vantage-86661/

Bruce

 

Totally agree but don't worry, I won't hold one a$$hat against the entire community. Trolling douchebags are going to do what trolling douchebags do. I was hoping when he declared he "won" that he'd just stop but apparently he had nothing better to do on New Years Eve than be a trolling douche. Oh well, it happens, we have a few in the Lotus community too.

Yeah, I'd say for an automatic it did seem to blip pretty well in the XF supercharged I drove.

Not sure you've seen the Top Gear where they film a car chase with an XF-R and a Ford Focus ST (well a fake ST but still). Jeremey wanted to add a 30 second shot of the guy holding the DCS button down to show that's really what it takes to turn it off.

Here's my final response to you. I'm a nationally certified BMW and PCA driving instructor. I've been instructing for 4 years with PCA, BMW, Audi, Lotus and private clients. I do on average 20 track days and 4-5 endurance races per year. There is absolutely zero question that a skilled driver is faster with TC OFF, not on. If you want real data I'm happy to share all my telemetry from the Traqmate in my Lotus. I don't expect you to understand any of this as clearly all your knowledge comes from "the press" and "friends".

I've decided on a 2010 XF-R, black with red. So since I've decided that I almost wish a moderator would just lock this thread so I don't have to listen to any more of your drivel.

For those of you that have actually tried to help and provide input I really thank you - most of you have been very helpful in my decision.

Happy New Year all,

-Ross

 

Thanks Bruce, another very helpful post.

At the end of the day I know I'll miss the manual, no question. But at this point I'm confident enough that everything else (massive power, supple luxury, all the tech) will more than make up for that one shortfall. I wish I was a BMW guy as the M5 on paper is almost perfect. While I'm not surprised Jag doesn't offer a manual if they did this might be the most perfect car ever.

-Ross

 

Glad to hear you've been able to make a decision with complete confidence. It's nice not to have to second guess your choice every time you see another model you had considered.

I've been excited about the new more driver-focused F-Type coming out next year, and where I thought it was going to be available with a manual, it's only going to be an 8 speed ZF. Still trying to figure out if I'm happy or disappointed! I've recognized a shift in my own definition of "perfect" to a more high tech bias, and still laser focused on every element that affects the contact patch. I turned the DSC off for good on my 3rd track day and that revealed the sublime handling nature of the car, and by all accounts the XFR is the same. Steering with your right foot is effortless, completely neutral balance through high-speed corners, tires maintaining large slip angles and then very progressive at the limit, solid brakes, deep trail-braker, excellent roll control...and can hang with the fast crowd down the straights, but giving up what weight would dictate in the corners. I hoped and expected it to be respectable on the track...but never expected this.

I think you might enjoys yours for the odd DE!

Bruce

 

With something like the F-Type I do think it's a mistake to not offer an proper manual. Again it's not about the tech (as I agree with your comments there) it's about me driving the car and not a computer. A sports can I can't heel-toe is a non-starter for me, period. And while in many respects you can consider the XF-R a sports car (in so much that it's much faster than other traditional sports cars) it's clearly designed for a different driver/use case.

Oh, and as for a DE I'll definitely take it out for sure as I'd like to know what she can really do (and, without being a colossal douche you can't do that on the roads). I've taken my Audi out several times (primarily when my Exige was down for maintenance) and while she wasn't nearly as much fun it was good to get to wring her out a bit. I look forward to the same in the XF-R.

 

Sadly, the message about puerile personal attacks was missed. Unsurprising really.

Of course, after 4 years as a driving instructor I understand perfectly why you would think you know more than the engineers at McLaren and Ferrari.

By all means post your lap times with stability control on and off. Even the factory test drivers are quicker with the stability control switched on. If you are slower with stability control on then perhaps you would benefit from a refresher. I mean, a formula one driver is quicker with stability control switched on which is why they banned it.

 

I haven't data-logged my laps but I found that in DSC On mode that the computer aggressively intervened in slower/tighter corners where any rear tires slip from either a throttle lift or rolling on the throttle at the apex caused loss of power to the wheels. This caused the car to "die" for what seemed like an eternity, and I was more concerned about getting rear-ended than anything else. Perfect response if the tire slip was unintended, not too helpful when the tire slip was intentional.

Then I dialed back the DSC sensitivity and DSC response by switching to TRAC DSC. This allowed a very slight tire slip, and perhaps a little less aggressive response, and is probably an excellent setting for an experienced driver enjoying a little spirited use. This setting might also yield the best lap times on a high speed track where losses through one or two tight corners could be offset with gains through the high-speed ones from enhanced confidence that the DSC would save you from getting too out of shape. But since I wasn't driving at 9/10ths I kept it back from the threshold of grip in the fast spots, and could definitely use the improved driver control in the twisty bits.

That led to DSC OFF mode, and I think the Holy Grail of car control and quickest laps at less than 9/10ths for my skill level and experience at Mosport where I have done hundreds of laps (my home track). But I also recognize that turning off DSC increases the risk of stuffing it into a wall, sometimes caused by things beyond your control, and since I track for fun and not a living I'm likely to select TRAC DSC more often than not. But the good news is that when the driver takes full control he can extract incredible performance...and even drift the car from Turn-in to Track-out with the right foot while monitoring the four tires screaming like raped chickens! Simply amazing for a 4000 lb car.

Bruce

 

... something along the lines of ... pot, kettle, black comes to mind.

... highly unlikely as you have been more than ready to fan the flames.

 

11 seconds always feels longer when your in the drivers seat

 

So...let's all carry on like enthusiasts who have come here to enjoy their passions and contribute with other like-minded obsessive-compulsive enthusiasts
Car & Driver just released its 7th run at Virginia International Raceway on the longest course for their Lighting lap feature. See how your Jaag compares to all the others in the 2006 to 2013 listing. The XFR spanked an awful lot of performance models...and got spanked by those you'd expect.

Bruce

 

Sorry for the much delayed reply to this Exec - been offline while you have all been having fun here! Sadly, no, not replacing it with another Jag. I am moving to Australia soon, where car prices and law enforcement mean that I will probably be putting my usual car aspirations on hold for a few years. I will probably start looking at off roading to get my car kicks.

LotusExige - I hope you find the car for you. I am not sure what answers you are really looking for, other than confirmation that you will miss your manual shifting. Of course you will. How much? Only you can tell. Will you like the XF-R? Most probably - many folk with your level of track experience love it, and one or two others here have elucidated on the fine handling of this car on track far better than most of the rest of us can. Sounds like you are well on the way to buying one anyway, which is good news.

 

Mike Cross and his team at Jaguar are known to be fine chassis engineers. Among the best in the business. They chose the DSC and TRAC software settings with the same care they used to design the electronically naked suspension settings. After watching the Jaguar bumf about how ther awd settings were chosen (also heavily software modified, using an electronically modulated clutch pack transfer case) I continue to be impressed with the focus on the driving experience. BTW, Mike Cross is not a fan of mechanical LSD and prefers to use software based systems. He's right of course, an open diff is much superior which is why Lotus doesn't use a mechanical LSD.

Jaguar have always been known for their chassis designs.

The British motor industry designs the best suspension systems in the World. Nobody can beat British F1 chassis, anywhere. The British also lead in suspension design for other race series such a WRC.

So, no surprise really that the XF outhandles a bunch of other machinery despite its luxurious ride. That's the magic: great grip, balance and steering AND a comfy ride.

The base car with fixed rate Bilstein shocks is an eye opener. Mike Cross himself suggested the base car may be the best of the lot he was of course referring to the balance between ride and handling. Non adjustable shock rates are still to be preferred over electronically adjustable types. The supercharged cars and the premium cars with adjustable shocks and the dynamic drive software are pretty much the best handling sedans available on the market today, assuming ride comfort is a factor. However, you can't switch off the adjustable feature. Therefore, along with ABS even selecting DSC off does not kill all the driver aids. The McLaren MP4 12 also cannot be driven with all stability controls switched off as the brake steer and roll stiffness remain on at all times. So don't think you can be faster with no driver aids. Just ain't so.

If ride is not relevant then by all means buy a German car and wear your kidney belt.

 

I would consider trading my 2010 XFR for the RS4 but not an even trade. Maybe +$8Kish.

 

BigCat NJ- Australia? You are never going to come back! I am in International Transportation and have offices in every city. PM me if you need help or just advise on anything. I can put you in contact with one of my guys down there for questions.

 

PM coming, agreed not an even trade on price.

 

Well done moderator, well done...

 

Let us not forget "obtuse", for a more complete list, though perhaps not reciprocal.

However, the message seems to have got through, a tad distorted but functional.

Ya gotta love the handling on those XF's, makes the automatic gearbox tolerable....

 

As I just picked up a 2011 XFR in Black/Red I thought I'd come back here and update the thread. I'd forgotten how hysterical I thought this thread got - pretty damn funny refresher reading some of the comments here.

Closing the loop on the transmission question - it is *exactly* what I expected. It shifts beautifully, rev-matches well (although you get a lot of transmission drag unless you're hard braking), and up-shifts faster than I ever could. It's very responsive, as soon as I pull up or down BLAM it shifts.

I miss my manual. Badly.

The difference is the XFR is a wonderful cruiser, perhaps the best I've ever driven. It's hugely fast and powerful (spanks my old RS4) but it's exactly as I expected and it's nearly as engaging to drive. Now you could easily argue that isn't the point of the XFR and that is is built much more for the long cruise than a sport-blast. Clearly the XFR is designed for a very different audience than say my RS4 was.

At the end of the day it (XFR) is simply the most amazing machine I've ever owned. It's surpassed every expectation I had of it, including the transmission (meaning it is better than I expected). The first time I'd actually been in one was when I picked mine up (I flew to LA and drove it back to Denver) - I couldn't believe how fantastic it was. A fellow car-guy and racer flew out with me to drive it back and he too was just blown away. We sat there thinking "I bought this car for $37k?" with my jaw on the floor.

After having a giggle through the comments once again thanks to those of you who chimed in with helpful posts. To those that I, as someone said "fanned the flames" thanks for all the smiles, that is some funny stuff.

-Ross

 

This may be the most accurate/informative post I have seen on this forum. The XF/XFR is an amazing cruiser, but for most will never fill the sports car slot in one's garage. If you go into ownership understanding that, you will not be disappointed. However, it will never be enough for someone who is looking for a three pedal sports sedan/car.