Thank you so much..I am always open to sound research of products..I am completely satisfied with your find..good job and thank you again....

I will also apologize for the ruckus..never intended to mean you any disrespect...I hope none was taken.

 

No offense taken. There are so many changes out there and new products that it is hard to keep track of them. Forums like this keep us educated. As a teacher, I appreciate meaningful questions and use them as an opportunity to learn things. And, of course, I could be wrong at times (just ask my wife).

 

I'm cautious to revive this thread but I've read through it twice and there's a lot of arguing but no definitive answer. I believe by spec we can use Pentosin Super Dot 4 or Dot 4 LV. Dot 4 LV is an exact match with the Jaguar bottle with a wet boiling point of 170 C compared to Super Dot 4 with 165 C. The part I'm confused with is that the Pentosin Data sheet shows Super Dot 4 Jaguar All Years and Dot 4 LV doesn't list Jaguar at all. Additionally neither states ESL or ESP but I think both are. I think LV would be the better choice but am not sure. Can anyone confirm that these are compatible and if the LV would be the better choice?

 

OK, I'm sure to "rile up the troops" with this post, but here goes......




I have a 2009 XF Luxury, in the "family fleet". I believe in keeping up on the maintenance, and that includes changing the brake fluid regularly. Yes, the cap on the master cylinder says something about "DOT 4 Fluid", so when I did the first fluid change, in 2011, I used the same Valvoline DOT 3/4, synthetic fluid that I've been using for several years prior, in our other cars. Long story short, I experienced no issues. I then changed the brake fluid 2 more times, using the Valvoline fluid.


Earlier this year, I got involved in a brake fluid discussion, on this website, and I was thoroughly chastised by a couple people, over my choice of fluid. So, I decided to flush the system, and install the "proper" fluid. Problem is, the DOT 4 LV fluid is hard to find. However, Advance Auto Parts recently began carrying the Pentosin brand of "European" brake fluid, so that's what I bought.


I flushed the system a few weeks ago, when I put the winter tires on the car. Brakes seem the same to me.............

 

Having just done a ton of research on this prior to seeing this thread, and since I just ordered 4 corners' worth of StopTech slotted rotors and EBC Red Stuff pads, I thought I'd chime in... to your point, it's really hard to make a fully informed decision regarding what Jaguar is spec'ing, yet isn't readily available, with regards to viscosity, wet/dry boiling points, longevity (length of time between flushes and bleeds), etc., without reading more than anyone in their right mind ever should about the subject.

Howeva - after having done just that over the past week, primarily due to my painful affliction (always looking for a "cost-effective" upgrade whenever possible), I believe that in addition to the Shell Super-Duperific Dot 4 brake fluid spec'd by Jag, two other fairly readily available options (at least on Amazon) which seem to meet the Jag specs are 1) ATE SL.6 and 2) Pentosin DOT 4 LV. They don't appear to be an upgrade over the Shell, but they are on par, and they are actually available for purchase somewhere in this dimension. It appears that the usual suspects (BMW, M-B, etc.) also spec the same fluid as Jag, and they sell their brands, which are just re-branded from someone else, online and elsewhere.

Of the two Pentosin products being mentioned in the thread above, the specs of the Pentosin DOT 4 LV seem to be more favorable to what's being spec'd by Jag than the Pentosin Super DOT 4. Although, I'd suggest that it's probably negligible unless you're in an extremely cold climate. Stop reading here, unless you're a glutton...

Because most of the high-performance brake fluid conversations on the interwebz revolve around racing/tracking, I've also inadvertently thoroughly researched all of the racing brake fluids, and, while accepting that Castrol SRF is the reigning king, lest I be flogged by some fan boy, it became clear that all of the subsequently higher wet/dry boiling points which race fluids provide typically come with a longevity and/or viscosity trade-off, which is a negative for me, since I'll never need sun-melting boiling points and I don't want to flush, bleed, purge, evacuate, or otherwise touch my brake fluid any more frequently than once every few years. In brake fluids, viscosity typically goes down as the temps rise, so the viscosity issue sort of melts away. There are occasions when they could easily/safely be used on our cars, but because they provide virtually no payoff in 99.9% of street driving, it’s fairly pointless to justify the increased money or potential issues they might cause (even though it’s doubtful they would).

What I think I also found is that most of the LV, ESP, ESL, Super, Plus, etc. versions of the Dot 4s (and the single Dot 5.1 I found) seem to offer enough of a lower viscosity level to really only make much of a difference in Anti-lock Brakes, Electronic Stability Control, etc. in extremely cold temps/climates. The lower viscosity (lower means a thinner fluid) enables the fluid to more easily squirt its way through the tiny nooks, crannies, and myriad mazes of the ABS, ESC, etc. systems in cold temps, thereby enabling them to engage/cycle sooner, faster, and more reliably.

Speaking in generalities, and with the caveat that some Dot 4's actually exceed certain Dot 5.1 designation thresholds regarding boiling points, Dot 5.1 brake fluids appear to have a higher wet/dry boiling point threshold than Dot 4 fluids (which is what we want, although probably not a huge deal unless you're either tracking your car or running from the blue boys for an extended period of time), while they also have a lower viscosity level threshold (which is also what we want for the Anti-lock Brakes, Electronic Stability Control, etc. - especially in really cold temps). But, here's the catch - the low viscosity level threshold for a Dot 5.1 designation, while lower than those "regular" Dot 4 fluids, isn't quite low enough to be on par with the LV, ESP, ESL, Super, Plus, or similarly branded/designated versions of the Dot 4s. The one brake fluid I could find which was Dot 5.1 AND also had a comparably low viscosity level to the Shell which Jag specs is "TRW Ultra DOT 5.1 ESP," which came out in June, 2014. But, I couldn't find it anywhere (on Amazon), so I finally relented and bought a liter of the ATE SL.6, as it had great reviews, meets the Jag specs, and was a tad cheaper than the corresponding Pentosin (LV). Talk about anticlimactic.

Besides learning a new word (hygroscopic), the one major thing I learned was that, even though I'm probably considered an "aggressive" driver by most, I don't EVER get the temps on the brakes up high enough to melt planets, and because I live in Atlanta, where it never gets cold enough for viscosity to be more than a minor consideration, there isn't much of a difference in my application between regular Dot 4 brake fluid, the super-duperific Shell Dot 4 brake fluid spec'd by Jag, or the aforementioned TRW Ultra DOT 5.1 ESP. So, I just had my time burgled again by chasing the ever-elusive "cost-effective" upgrade to OEM down yet another fruitless rabbit hole. Hopefully, at least someone else can benefit.

General rules summary: As with all general rules, there are occasional exceptions. Example; sometimes a Dot 4 fluid will exceed the wet boiling point of a Dot 5.1 fluid, etc. But, for simplicity, I’m reiterating the general rules here. Please keep in mind that I’m listing them specifically for the intended purpose of only our Jag XF models. 1) All versions of Dot 3, Dot 4, and Dot 5.1 (not Dot 5) can safely be mixed together in a pinch, as they’re all glycol-based and compatible, although it’s certainly not recommended in any vehicle (different characteristics and what not - just flush in-between). 2) Don’t use Dot 3 on our cars, as the boiling points are lower and viscosity is higher than minimum Jag specs (although you probably wouldn’t notice a difference in 90+% of cases - would be best suited in a pinch for normal driving in a temperate climate). Dot 4 and Dot 5.1 have borate ester to handle higher temperatures. 3) Don’t use regular Dot 4 on our cars, as the viscosity is higher than minimum Jag specs (although you probably wouldn’t notice a difference in 95+% of cases - would be best suited in a pinch for any type of driving in a temperate climate). 3) Don’t use Dot 5.1 on our cars, as, even though the boiling points are higher than minimum Jag specs, the viscosity threshold is ever so slightly higher than minimum Jag specs (although you probably wouldn’t notice a difference in 99+% of cases - would be best suited in a pinch for any type of driving in a temperate climate). 4) Absolutely do not use Dot 5 under any circumstances in our cars. Dot 5 is silicone-based, and should never be mixed with any other DOT fluid. 5) I believe that you could safely use a Dot 5.1 brake fluid with an LV, ESP, ESL, Super, Plus, etc. designation under any/all circumstances, as it would meet/exceed all Jag minimum specs.

Again, I was speaking in broad generalities throughout the information provided, but the information should be accurate enough to get a broad understanding of what we need in our cars, and why we need it. I’m sure someone will take offense at something I said or forgot to say, so I’ll apologize proactively if I screwed something up. As a failsafe, don’t take my word for anything; perform your own due diligence if you have any questions/concerns.

 

This goes back to earlier Jaguars where Super was specfied but
not defined in the user manual.

The easy answer is that ATE ABS specifies a low viscosity DOT4
variant. ATE has ATE-SL6 and Pentosin has the equivalent listed
above.

 

Thanks to "Reaxions" for both his research, and his willingness to take the time and write it all down. What I find most interesting about his post, is that as he noted all of the "tech specs" for the different fluids, he also commented that the different fluids would most likely be OK in 95% of the different applications.


This is what I was getting at, in a couple of my previous posts regarding brake fluid. Maybe my experience is rather limited, with respect to European cars, as the first Jag that we bought was a 2001 XJ-8, purchased in late 2000. My previous experience with American vehicles, however, goes back to 1970.


Since I believe in maintenance, brake fluid included, I have always changed the brake fluid in my "family fleet" almost annually. Since some of the cars get driven in the winter, the wheels come off to put the snow tires on, therefore hooking up the brake bleeder isn't that much additional work. I've been using Valvoline DOT 3-4 synthetic fluid for many years, in my other cars/trucks, without issues. These vehicles are driven in temps ranging from the high 90s, to sub zero.


As I also previously mentioned, I had the Valvoline brake fluid in our '09 XF for several years, prior to flushing and replacing with Pentosin DOT 4 LV. I didn't really notice any difference in performance.

 

Great post! I think this will be helpful for everyone wondering about what fluid to use in the future.

Thanks Reaxions!