ECU Tuning Group | Jaguar XF/XFR ECU Upgrade
#22
03-07-2012, 10:31 AM
that is another point. Talking strictly engine power and torque to the road, The SC is very, very close - almost identical to the XFR in real life on-road performance. C&D had both models doing 0-60 at 4.3sec. The XFR may pull harder from 80-140mph, or on the track. But in real life......I don't know. The suspension calibration on the XFR is sportier-I think.
So, I wonder if you would feel in real life the further upgrade of the ECU tune.
So, I wonder if you would feel in real life the further upgrade of the ECU tune.
#23
03-07-2012, 03:02 PM
OK...no more bickering, conjecture, guesses and defensive posturing. I've done it as of today and documented results as best I could (not perfect, but gives you a pretty damn good idea).
Preface: I DO NOT LIKE MAIL ORDER TUNES. I've tuned several cars on the dyno, and all have been bench flashed, dyno and/or road tuned. However, if any Jag owner is actually a gear head an interested in tuning, you may have noticed we have limited options.
Here goes:
1. ECU Tuning Group Customer Service. Top notch!! Jags is a tuner, and as such can be a bit difficult to contact at first. I emailed, then followed up next day with a call because he asked me to. He was then super attentive through the whole process. I'm sure Jags has dyno sheets to post, but he's busy tuning cars...I for one am happy about this after having done it, so I'm posting the dynos here. Jags sent me the laptop and OBD reader and answered his personal cell phone every time I had a question and was ready and willing to walk me through every step (even though it's very, very easy). I read the file (15 minutes), emailed to Jags, he sent back tuned file (15 minutes), programmed car (10 minutes).
2. Results. Dynos posted here. I posted the baseline (mine was very strong stock...even the dyno operator commented based on the presumed 470 bhp rating...should have been in the 405rwhp neighborhood with drivetrain loss through an automatic tranny...rule of thumb of course). Mine posted three runs around 420/400 rwhp/tq. These runs were done around 11:30am in Dallas in 67 deg weather. I drove the car from cold start 10 miles to the dyno, let it cool for 45 minutes and made the runs.
Then I opened the tuning package, performed the tune. Jags was there all the way through. Buttoned it up, and per Jags drove at least 105.3 miles for the car to adapt. Drove it 113.8 to be exact, unfortunately, drove it for 1.5 hours straight to do so, directly to the dyno. Let it cool for 45 minutes and made the after tune runs. Four runs around 460/450 rwhp/rwtq at 5:45pm in Dallas in 75 deg weather.
Short story, gained 40rwhp and 50rwtq, which is AWESOME!!!!
Now, because of the temp difference, outside and car, those numbers are probably 10 low on each, but that's just a semi-educated guess, and could be more due to the excessive amount of hammering I did in the 1.5 hours of adapting the car to the new tune because I drove it hard...very hard and it was very hot.
More positives...
While I was hammering the hell out of it for 113 miles, I averaged 18mpg (was 20 for the 113 miles, but with 4 pulls and more hammering it over 156 miles total got 18 mpg) 1 better than I usually average in typical city driving!
The car shifts much, much better and is more smooth all the way across the band. Even the dyno operator noted the improved shifting on the damn dyno and commented.
You can feel it without question.
AFR was 14.8 after tune (see bottom of tuned dyno sheet, they didn't run wideband on base runs unfortunately, and I just caught that)...SOOOO MUCH BETTER and not in the danger zone everyone seems to be so worried about. You could run 87 octane in this rich sonofa3#$% stock if you wanted to...no need to worry about detonation.
OK...for those that just have to take stick to horse, I'm sure there will be a host of other questions, but I'm a converted ECU Tuning Group customer after this experience...for what it's worth.
It's a hell of a thing to buy 50rwhp for $1700...always a deal!! Throw in better drivability and it's great! Now, I can't say anything about the detectability of the tune, but Jags knows his stuff and I spoke to him at length.
Hope this helps somebody that wants it!
Jags, if you're reading, many, many thanks!
Preface: I DO NOT LIKE MAIL ORDER TUNES. I've tuned several cars on the dyno, and all have been bench flashed, dyno and/or road tuned. However, if any Jag owner is actually a gear head an interested in tuning, you may have noticed we have limited options.
Here goes:
1. ECU Tuning Group Customer Service. Top notch!! Jags is a tuner, and as such can be a bit difficult to contact at first. I emailed, then followed up next day with a call because he asked me to. He was then super attentive through the whole process. I'm sure Jags has dyno sheets to post, but he's busy tuning cars...I for one am happy about this after having done it, so I'm posting the dynos here. Jags sent me the laptop and OBD reader and answered his personal cell phone every time I had a question and was ready and willing to walk me through every step (even though it's very, very easy). I read the file (15 minutes), emailed to Jags, he sent back tuned file (15 minutes), programmed car (10 minutes).
2. Results. Dynos posted here. I posted the baseline (mine was very strong stock...even the dyno operator commented based on the presumed 470 bhp rating...should have been in the 405rwhp neighborhood with drivetrain loss through an automatic tranny...rule of thumb of course). Mine posted three runs around 420/400 rwhp/tq. These runs were done around 11:30am in Dallas in 67 deg weather. I drove the car from cold start 10 miles to the dyno, let it cool for 45 minutes and made the runs.
Then I opened the tuning package, performed the tune. Jags was there all the way through. Buttoned it up, and per Jags drove at least 105.3 miles for the car to adapt. Drove it 113.8 to be exact, unfortunately, drove it for 1.5 hours straight to do so, directly to the dyno. Let it cool for 45 minutes and made the after tune runs. Four runs around 460/450 rwhp/rwtq at 5:45pm in Dallas in 75 deg weather.
Short story, gained 40rwhp and 50rwtq, which is AWESOME!!!!
Now, because of the temp difference, outside and car, those numbers are probably 10 low on each, but that's just a semi-educated guess, and could be more due to the excessive amount of hammering I did in the 1.5 hours of adapting the car to the new tune because I drove it hard...very hard and it was very hot.
More positives...
While I was hammering the hell out of it for 113 miles, I averaged 18mpg (was 20 for the 113 miles, but with 4 pulls and more hammering it over 156 miles total got 18 mpg) 1 better than I usually average in typical city driving!
The car shifts much, much better and is more smooth all the way across the band. Even the dyno operator noted the improved shifting on the damn dyno and commented.
You can feel it without question.
AFR was 14.8 after tune (see bottom of tuned dyno sheet, they didn't run wideband on base runs unfortunately, and I just caught that)...SOOOO MUCH BETTER and not in the danger zone everyone seems to be so worried about. You could run 87 octane in this rich sonofa3#$% stock if you wanted to...no need to worry about detonation.
OK...for those that just have to take stick to horse, I'm sure there will be a host of other questions, but I'm a converted ECU Tuning Group customer after this experience...for what it's worth.
It's a hell of a thing to buy 50rwhp for $1700...always a deal!! Throw in better drivability and it's great! Now, I can't say anything about the detectability of the tune, but Jags knows his stuff and I spoke to him at length.
Hope this helps somebody that wants it!
Jags, if you're reading, many, many thanks!
Forum member's review on the XJ/XJL Section
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joshmcmorrow (01-19-2014)
#25
03-07-2012, 03:38 PM
Veteran Member
that is another point. Talking strictly engine power and torque to the road, The SC is very, very close - almost identical to the XFR in real life on-road performance. C&D had both models doing 0-60 at 4.3sec. The XFR may pull harder from 80-140mph, or on the track. But in real life......I don't know. The suspension calibration on the XFR is sportier-I think.
So, I wonder if you would feel in real life the further upgrade of the ECU tune.
So, I wonder if you would feel in real life the further upgrade of the ECU tune.
Maybe ECU Tuning Group can confirm?
So my guess then is after the flash on both the XFR and the XF S/C the same power results, 0-60, 1/4 mile, and the mile times would all be the same or super close?
But, before the flash the XFR will pull away after the 0-60 cause it has 40hp more?
If so is true then I am going to find me a 2010-11 Used XF S/C and buy their product before spring arrives.
#27
03-08-2012, 04:50 PM
Junior Member
--Dim
#29
03-09-2012, 07:13 AM
Junior Member
#30
03-09-2012, 07:51 AM
It might "work" but don't expect similar gains. Most ECU tunes that effect gains like this on supercharged engines accomplish that by increasing boost via changing the point at which the waste gate opens, along with a remap of the fuel/ignition curve to optimize to the new boost. In a NA engine, there is no boost and no waste gate. You can sometimes get modest gains (5-10hp) by remapping fuel/ignition curves in a NA engine, but I would think it's a different map from that which would be suited to a supercharged engine.
#31
03-09-2012, 08:36 PM
Veteran Member
^ What you say holds true for turbo cars. SC cars have no WG to expel over boost. These maps provide bumps in Timing and other tuning that was set low from Jag. The pulley they provide is only a 1.5psi increase on boost. The Mina pulley and all others seem to be a 2.5psi pulley.I am impressed at their claims with just a 1.5psi bump in boost levels. I wish they had the tune for a exhaust and a 2.5 pulley. Then I would leave it alone at that.I bet that combo would net a nother 40HP!
In the N/A motos they could bump the Rev limiter up a bit and increase som timing but only to a point to where the valves will start to float or other inefficiencies take place.
In the N/A motos they could bump the Rev limiter up a bit and increase som timing but only to a point to where the valves will start to float or other inefficiencies take place.
#32
03-14-2012, 01:16 PM
Maybe ECU Tuning Group can confirm?
So my guess then is after the flash on both the XFR and the XF S/C the same power results, 0-60, 1/4 mile, and the mile times would all be the same or super close?
But, before the flash the XFR will pull away after the 0-60 cause it has 40hp more?
If so is true then I am going to find me a 2010-11 Used XF S/C and buy their product before spring arrives.
So my guess then is after the flash on both the XFR and the XF S/C the same power results, 0-60, 1/4 mile, and the mile times would all be the same or super close?
But, before the flash the XFR will pull away after the 0-60 cause it has 40hp more?
If so is true then I am going to find me a 2010-11 Used XF S/C and buy their product before spring arrives.
As we have been telling many of our customers who seek strictly power and only that, we recommend the XF Supercharged. On the other hand, if they strive for the extra power with added bits of luxury, then the XFR is not a bad way to go. In the end, it's personal preference.
#33
03-14-2012, 01:35 PM
On the 5.0L Supercharged, our customers are experiencing 22-23mpg up from 17mpg.
#34
03-14-2012, 10:36 PM
#35
03-15-2012, 12:22 AM
Veteran Member
Of course you sacrifice something, manufacturers spend millions on a tune, and chances that they left something unintentionally are very small.
Most of the time the biggest gains from these tunes come from the safety area build in (so by reducing the margin to the knock levels), but as I don’t know where ETG buy’s there tune from and how much that one has compromised the safety, I can’t speak for theirs.
This is also why I always recommend using a higher octane fuel after a tune, to compensate that again. But I can’t see that recommendation with ETG
Most of the time the biggest gains from these tunes come from the safety area build in (so by reducing the margin to the knock levels), but as I don’t know where ETG buy’s there tune from and how much that one has compromised the safety, I can’t speak for theirs.
This is also why I always recommend using a higher octane fuel after a tune, to compensate that again. But I can’t see that recommendation with ETG
#37
03-15-2012, 09:41 AM
Almost all supercharged cars come from the factory pig rich so they can be beat on without having to worry about knock/detonation. You will almost always gain power and increase mpg if you lean it out a bit. Say you drive the car in extreme heat and had a bad tank of gas you'd probably knock when it's leaned out vs running rich.
Last edited by Blackcoog; 03-15-2012 at 09:45 AM.
#38
03-15-2012, 11:17 AM
One thing the user can do to add to the safety margin against detonation is to increase the octane level, which is a measure of the fuel's resistance to pre-ignition/detonation as Avos pointed out. I do that when I run my modified cars on the race track. I do that to compensate for increased boost levels and more aggressive ECU tuning. I also use water-injection on one car for the same reason. Water isn't actually a fuel, but has a very high octane rating none-the-less, and it has other desirable properties that a very high race fuel would not. Regardless, it's all about preventing the air/fuel mixture in the combustion chamber from "pre-igniting" before the ECU triggers an actual spark from the plug. If combustion takes place too soon the pistons ringlands can be broken, and too lean a mixture can also burn a hole in the top of the piston. Engine damage is a real concern.
A professional tuner that monitors air/fuel ratio and the effect of advancing ignition timing allows both the tuner and owner to make a calculated and informed decision about the remaining amount of safety margin that's based on actual results. A tuner that has been professionally trained, and utilizes those techniques and proper monitoring of the effect on the engine on a dyno, and on the street (which loads the engine differently and provides more comprehensive feedback), will be able to provide the owner with a safe tune, along with any operating instructions he needs regarding recommended fuel octane levels, etc. The ability and willingness of the tuner to discuss his tuning methods should address these concerns and provide the confidence to have your car tuned.
Check out this thread starting at post #53 to see before and after dyno results on a 5L S/C, and resulting concerns... https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...upgrade-64589/
Bruce
Last edited by Bruce H.; 03-15-2012 at 02:14 PM. Reason: add link
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avos (03-17-2012)
#39
03-16-2012, 09:38 PM
Please feel free to contact us or PM us your number and we'll gladly discuss this with you.
#40
03-16-2012, 09:50 PM
Of course you sacrifice something, manufacturers spend millions on a tune, and chances that they left something unintentionally are very small.
Most of the time the biggest gains from these tunes come from the safety area build in (so by reducing the margin to the knock levels), but as I don’t know where ETG buy’s there tune from and how much that one has compromised the safety, I can’t speak for theirs.
This is also why I always recommend using a higher octane fuel after a tune, to compensate that again. But I can’t see that recommendation with ETG
Most of the time the biggest gains from these tunes come from the safety area build in (so by reducing the margin to the knock levels), but as I don’t know where ETG buy’s there tune from and how much that one has compromised the safety, I can’t speak for theirs.
This is also why I always recommend using a higher octane fuel after a tune, to compensate that again. But I can’t see that recommendation with ETG
For your information, we have our OWN tunes. They are created by our team. We have discussed this many times within this forum.
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