Can you guys please give me your educated thoughts on my timing issue? The scan tool is showing the bank 1 intake cam timing at 180 degrees and never changes even if you give it gas. (5.0 SC engine). It is NOT making noises. I swapped the actuator from bank 2 to bank 1 and that made no difference. Does this sound like the phaser has gone bad, or is there something else I should check before starting this huge job? Code P0016.

I REALLY am not looking forward to a phaser job, removing valve covers, etc.

Thanks!

 

What made you check it in the first place? Why did you suspect an issue? What tool are you using? It can't be 180 deg out. You will not see it change simply by revving the engine.

 

It's in restrictive mode with that p0016 code I mentioned for bank 1 sensor 1. And on the scan tool in live stream the timing for each cam moves a little as you rev the engine. But one cam (bank 1 intake cam the one causing code) just shows 180 degrees solid in live data and never moves.

 

Sorry to make s second post back to back but couldn't figure out how to edit.

Do you happen to know what the scan tool should be reading live for the timing of each cam at idle? I swapped the solenoid so I am sure that's not the issue. Is there anything it could be besides a bad phaser? If I pull the cover, is there a way to tell if the phaser is in the correct position?

Thanks!

 

Sorry misunderstood the 180 deg note. But I think 180 is not possible even if broken phaser. Intake cams can only advance 62 degrees. Here is a photo of the timing figures which I am pretty sure I took from a good engine at idle. Pulling the cover is not that easy as you have to pull injectors first and they can be hard to remove. I would also suspect the ECU, I cured my P0017 (same error other bank) by swapping it.

 

Thank You! Big help....so your ecu was failing but you didn't have any signs except one cam timing was off? Do you have any suggestion on how to determine if it's a ECU issue? I don't have a scope like you were using.

TI make sure I'm following correctly. The base intake timing is around 76 and the maximum a phaser can physically advance it is 62 for a total of 138. So if the scan tool is showing 180 degrees for a intake cam then it either has to be the cam sensor, the ECU, or wiring. Is that correct?

I do not have a scope, do you have any thoughts on how to test this without a scope?

How much did a ECU set you back?

 

Yes I think around 138 is the maximum advance. Are you getting similar figures to mine on your good bank? You could try unplugging the solenoid then the cam sensor and see what readings you get, that may test the wiring depending on whether you see changes or additional codes. You can also remove the solenoid and use a screwdriver or punch to push directly on the phaser actuator and see if timing figures change.

I paid less than $100 on Ebay for the ECU. It does need programming to the VIN after fitting using JLR software.

 

So the data on bank 2 (good bank) is very similar to yours....I'm using a Autel scanner and it has multiple timing readings, earlier I had only seen the set of data that shows the 180 I'd mentioned....some data is called "Actual Variable Valve Timing Position" and some is called "Camshaft adaptation". They all show the degrees. The bank 2 are the same for both sets of data and closely match your data. The bank 1 is all over the place....the two sets of data for bank 1 don't match each other as well as they do not match yours....bank 1 is a dang mess. Any thoughts on what may be the cause? I do not know the history of the vehicle.

So I can pull the actuators, disconnect them, and push the center actuator of the phaser while the engine runs and watch the scan tool live to see how it's responding? Does it matter how far in I push it?

 

I'm just trying to keep up with you guys... thanks for sharing all of this knowledge, and I hope I never need it! Ha-ha!

 

I will try to get cam adapt figures from mine but I would ignore that 180, as it is exact it looks like a max figure, probably erroneous. It looks to me that both cams on bank 1 are around 20 degrees out, that could mean that that chain has slipped a tooth on the crankshaft maybe. Not what you want to hear I'm sure. Yes you can push the actuator directly, you can't push it too far but timing should vary depending on amount depressed as far as I remember.

 

Well, I wondered that but I went into the settings of the scan tool and it shows a max of 200...but maybe a scan tool max where the 180 is a ECU max? But the other 3 cam adapt figures track along with the timing. So I thought maybe this is a bad sensor or issue with the ECU....BUT, it seems like from the other set of data that the sensor and ECU are seeing the proper cam timing....so not sure what this 180 is really showing me. Also the 180 cam is the cam throwing the P0016 code....bank 1 intake cam correlation code)....I'm not sure why the exhaust cam isn't throwing a code since they are both off, GUESSING because the exhaust is a little less off and maybe there is a threshold. Exhaust being about 15 degrees off vs intake about 22 off....maybe going over 20 degrees off triggers a code???

You don't have any thoughts about the 180 number?

 

First thing I would do is try another scanner to confirm reading. Or try your scanner on another car. The ECU input electronics for one of the sensors could be bad so the ECU is seeing a power supply level on the input or something similar and that equals 180 in it's mind. Any time I see an exact number like that on an input I suspect it's validity.

Here are my adaption figures, similar to your good ones. These are from my Range Rover 5.0L SC. Interesting when I check my XFR I get completely different figures but I think it is lying as units are shown as deg F !!

 

Do you know specifically what the camshaft adaption is? I see that even for bank 2 the variable valve timing data and the adaption data is very close but not exactly the same. Then the bank 1 my exhaust is very different with it showing 113 and 133 for the same cam. Isnt there only one timing sensor per cam, so how could there be two different readings for the same cam???

 

Yes, it's very weird and I have no answer for you on that one. The only real way I can think to check it is with a two channel oscilloscope looking at length of time between crank sensor TDC position and each cam sensor. Should be able to work angles out from that. I feel your pain😁

 

Delete

 

I'm not sure that my brain wants to try to work out the angles haha....BUT the two banks should be really really close together to very close to matching.

What scope do you have that was working for you to read cam sensors? Seems like it would need to be pretty fast to read cam sensors. I suppose I really should get one that can do two inputs so I can compare both banks to each other at the same time.

Man, I really appreciate you looking at some of this with me!

 

I think in your original post you mentioned you've built several of these engines. Do you happen to know, if I remove the 3 front covers and turn the engine several times should the marks on the chain line back up with the phaser marks? I'd like to identify this as the problem by lining up the marks on the chain/phasers and seeing if the crank is at exactly 6:00 or not.

 

No, once the engine has been run you will never get the painted marks to line up because it only happens every 1000 revs or something. But if you lock the crank in the correct place using a crank sensor locking tool you should be able to check cams are in the correct place by checking slots in rear line up. That doesn't check phaser function of course but it should tell you if the chain has jumped a tooth or the phaser is jammed in the wrong place. If one chain has slipped on the crank sprocket then the cam slots on that side will not be aligned.

 

The problem with using a scope is there are 60 or 120 pulses coming off the flywheel per rev and one is wider than the others. That is the one the crank alignment tool locates in. And you need to somehow get the scope to trigger on the wide one only to look at how the cam sensors are synchronized.

 

Are you referring to the slots in the rear of the cams? Aren't those under the valve cover? I was trying to figure out a way to check the chain without removing the valve cover since it damaged the injectors to remove them. Am I misunderstanding you or confused about what you mean regarding the slots?