Hey guys , you probably know me from the other thread and the issues surrounding my XFR from a Lexus dealership. It was inspected by Jaguar and came back with a estimate to repair the timing chain. The situation is currently under investigation by head office. I will provide an update once solved..

So I wanted to post a video to see if this engine cold start noise represents timing chain noise and how detrimental it is to have fixed right away. I have no engine codes, loss of power, or engine noise audible enough from Cabin.

Cold start

https://youtu.be/wpSwE74ADbA

 

I don't know if its timing chain noise but something definitely doesn't sound right in there.

 

What is the MY and number of kilometres/miles on the vehicle?

It's not uncommon for the supercharger coupling to make noise at idle as well that can be mistaken for timing chain noise.

 

It certainly sounds like it to me, although I'm no expert.

As for whether you should have it fixed right away - again, there's no way anyone can tell you this from the noise, but two things I can tell you are:

1) I'm pretty sure my engine sounded like this before it lunched itself due to low oil level, and I can't rule out slack in the timing chain as a contributing factor, especially as...
2) During the rebuild of my engine I found the slack in my timing chains (due to worn timing guides from the design flaw mentioned in earlier threads) was so bad that the chains had rattled around the front of the block to such an extent that they'd worn burrs into the aluminum webbing in the block, presumably causing aluminum fragments in the oil.

I'd replace them, but I'm also curious to know why you're apparently searching for second opinions when the dealership has already recommended replacement.

 

Have a listen to various parts of the engine with a stethoscope or, failing that, a long screwdriver.

My '10 XKR was making a similar noise when cold and I assumed that it was a timing chain issue so took it to my mechanic and he said the chains are quiet but we found that the noise was very audible when he touched the end of the stethoscope on the fuel rail which is close to where the noise seems loudest on your car.

There are a couple of high pressure fuel pumps on that side of the engine, towards the bottom, and they seem to get noisy when the engine is cold. My noise lasts for a couple of minutes until the engine starts to warm up. I have seen other 5 litres diagnosed with the same issue.

 

I just heard the same noise ( look at my post 3.0 engine noise. Mine sounds way worse than yours but its annoying, No drivability problems just loud

 

I can hear your buzzing noise in Turtlepower's video, but there's also a much louder rattle that I'm thinking is the timing chains.

 

If it’s coming from the top of the intake/supercharger, then it’s the supercharger coupler that needs to be replaced. And you might as well replace the snout rather than just the coupler, IF that’s the case. If it’s coming from the lower part of the engine, then it’s the timing chain issue. And if you hear it near, where the spark plugs are then it’s just your fuel injectors. If it’s your fuel injectors it’s fine, because like another member here said it’s a high pressure fuel system and it causes a similar annoying ticking type sound

EDIT.
Also the timing chain issue is more of a guaranteed failure on the 5.0 engines. All 5.0 engines Pre-2016 after roughly 70,000 miles are a ticking bomb. Have a search on the X351 forums it’s pretty common on there. I’m experiencing both supercharger coupler and the timing issue myself lol.

 

Thanks for all the advice, will try the stethoscope method to try and pinpoint the noises. After a minute, it all seems to quiet down. Should I be pinpointing at start up? Or when it has all quieted down after a minute?

Davetibbs - "id replace them" isn't the nonchalant approach I want to take until I at least have a second opinion. My suspicion is that, the Jaguar Dealership thought the dealer I bought the car from would pay for the repairs, and not sure if the timing chain diagnosis was perhaps a bit over recommended? I don't know. But a $14,000 repair from Jaguar is worth a second opinion. The independent shops all range from 5000-9000 canadian dollars for the timing chain repair.

I was under the impression that the 2012 came with a revised timing chain/guides, tensioner? If not, and if I end up replacing, would It need to be replaced once again sometime down the road?

Supercharged Jag - what are you planning on doing? Are you still driving the car or having it repaired?

2010 XFR 144,000 Kilometres

 

im still currently driving it (although that is not recommended). I have 75k miles on it. I’m going to get it repaired. I ordered all the parts including gaskets, coolant hoses, chains, tensioners, guides, fuel injectors reseal kits, supercharger snout kit, etc. These parts have been sitting at my house for 2-3 months now, but I’m going to get it done by the indie I take my car to within the next month or two. He’s charging roughly $2200 for labor.

 

Thats seems like a very good price. If you don't mind me asking how much did you source all the parts for? And is this USD? What part of US?

 

For just the timing chain parts including gaskets, it was $1k. And then the snout kit was about $500. So total on parts I spent $1500. And the parts I got from a buddy of mine. I’m reside in Kentucky, so these are U.S prices. And all parts are Genuine Jaguar parts from the dealer. Besides the snout, there is a guy on eBay that takes the original snout and rebuilds them. The nearest dealer to me was in Louisville and they were asking $8000 for the job, lol typical dealerships.

 

Fine, don't replace them then. Or maybe you should?

Look, I appreciate you're trying to get a concrete answer from people but with all due respect nobody's going to be able to give you the definitive answer you need from a video of the sound the car makes on a cold start and anyone who tells you they can is lying to you, so the second opinion you're seeking - at least here on the forum - can't really ever carry much value. What I can tell you for certain is that earlier models of this engine had a design flaw with the timing setup that was well known about in the Range Rover world, and has been attributed to the failure of at least some engines. Maybe mine, though I don't have enough evidence or knowledge to conclusively prove this - although I am one of the few to successfully rebuild this engine so I'd like to think I have a reasonable amount of knowledge of the problem.

It seems like there are more fundamental questions here to deal with than whether you have the timing gear replaced: where you talk about the JLR dealer thinking that the dealer you bought the car from will pay for it - is this not going to happen? Either they're going to pay for it, at which point I don't see the reason to shop around for second opinions, just get it done, or they're not, in which case you need to work out if you're willing/able to pay for it to be done or whether you should even keep the car.

The timing gear likely needs to be replaced, as the chains are very likely to be running with less tension than designed - if the fault is with the timing gear then that's what is causing the rattling. I say this based on the fact that I thought bad supercharger couplers didn't make a constant noise like this, but I also assume the dealer has done the diagnosis work to attribute the noise to the timing chains. Trying to work out how long you can "safely" run the car without doing this - which appears to be what you're doing - is not the question to be asking.

Sorry if it's not what you want to hear, but I'm trying to be truthful.

 

Any way to check the chain tension with the engine in situ?

Saabs had a mechanical tensioner you could remove and measure to see if theu had hit their limit.

To differentiate from coupler and supercharger rattle, you should pull the SC belt and run the engine. It will run fine idle and even drive if you don't get on it no CEL either.

Helped relax me for sure when I figured it was the fuel pumps ( still not cheap) but not as tough as the chains

 

Ah okay I understand better. Thanks for elaborating davetibbs. I appreciate your opinions, and value them just as much as everyone else's. Im not looking for a concrete answer , rather different opinions, that can help guide my approach to this situation in the coming days.

But I agree with you, and everything youre saying makes sense. They probably should be changed. I guess its a matter of whether I will know if its covered or not. And in the meantime whether its okay to drive the car, based on the video. Which I get, its sort of inconclusive. Which is another reason why Id value a second opinion ( by second opinion, I mean an inspection by a independent Jag Specialist) - Which I have booked for the coming monday.

Jaguar will not talk to me directly regarding the car, since the inspection was ordered by Lexus. They wont give me details when I asked what the diagnostic protocol was and the report doesn't give specifics. Dealings with Lexus have also gone sour. They have refused to even take the car back. The GM of the dealer "Policaro Group" actually accused me of making false accusations, regarding the advertising of the car and stopped all further dialogue. The car was advertised as including a 175 point inspection - which I learned never happened - and if it did happen, it would have uncovered these woes prior to me purchasing it. I sent proof of the ad via google cache, and sent tons of pictures I took documenting the ad. It was all brushed off, and denied, and I was told not to message again. So I have gotten the governing body of auto dealers involved (OMVIC), who are currently investigating. So we will see. In case anyone is wondering.. Simply google "Northwest Lexus Jaguar XFR" go to google images, and the car is right there alone with the picture of the 175 point inspection. the first 9 photos are the car is question, and the 8th photo is picture of the 175 point inspection being advertised.

Supercharged Jag - One of the local dealers here quoted $14.000 (10,5k usd) for the repair. Most of the indies range from 6-9.000 cdn, and one even quoted as low as 4500. Which is much more reasonable. I just done see it being fair that I have to be the one to pay for the repairs. What do you guys think?

Regardless , Will keep this updated.

 

Thanks for the reply with more detail - I see the predicament you're in. Sorry if I was a bit blunt earlier.

If I'm honest, I probably drove my car for quite a while with it sounding at least as bad as that, because I couldn't be sure it was really that much of a problem, with everyone saying "ah these DI engines are always a bit noisy" etc. It was only when my engine spun 2 connecting rod bearings on a hard pull and I drained out about half the quantity of oil that should have been in my engine, that I suspected it may have been a problem. My current suspicion is that the worn timing gear caused slack in the chains, resulting in burrs of aluminum being worn off by them rattling on idle, which then end up in the oil, which then probably wears the piston rings, increasing blow-by and eventually causing the oil level to get so low between services that it caused oil starvation on a hard pull, causing spun bearings and a rather pricey rebuild.

If you can't fix the chains soon, at the very least keep a close eye on your oil level, because the car will not proactively warn you if it gets too low. After spending 2.5 years and more money than I care to admit, I'm more than willing to spend 30 seconds every week making sure my oil is still a good level.

 

So was the noise coming when you first picked up the car? If so, I would expect the dealer be responsible for that. And the reason they bring up their 170 point inspection is so that way fingers aren’t pointed at them immediately. After claiming they had done a 170 point inspection, the fingers turn on you, and make it seem like everything was fine. Except AFTER you picked the car up, making it seem your responsible for it. Also there is no way to physically diagnose and check the timing chain components just by looking. So keep that in mind, that point can be used against you. Overall If I were you, I would stand my ground and fight back against the *********** for ripping me off like that. And plus they will try everything to get the blame put off of them.

 

Hey supercharged Jag,

They actually claimed they never did the 175 point inspection. They also claim they never advertised it as its only for Lexus vehicles. But as per my evidence, and videos of the advertisement clearly showing its there, they deny it all and point the finger at me. saying Im falsely accusing them. Clearly is a big mistake on thier end within the marketing/advertisement department. But im the one suffering. The advertisement showed it it would undergo the 175 point inspection, ultimately giving me piece of mind that the car was thoroughly inspected. If I knew it wouldn't be 175 point inspected, I would have had it inspected thoroughly by an indy or Jaguar. Other things wrong with car - both seat climate control modules faulty, TPMS module faulty, passenger window regulator motor faulty, sunroof rattle. All of this found out after purchase.

Do you see what I mean? Am I wrong for saying it was falsely advertised? The dealer is shunning me, and the Head office lexus Canada is basically saying too bad, that all dealers are privately owned, and they wont step in. Did you see the ad on google images?

 

And thanks Davetibbs, I appreciate the bluntless. So far I am checking oil levels every day. All seems okay so far. But will continue to keep an eye on it nonetheless.

 

Have you listened to another 5 litre at cold idle because the high pressure fuel system is very noisy?

This is mine and the fluctuating noise you can hear once the tickover slows down is caused by me putting the car in and out of gear. As mentioned earlier, I assumed the rattling noise was the timing chains but they are actually quiet. My mechanic thinks it is the high pressure fuel pumps making the noise.


The noise is a lot less pronounced once the engine has warmed up: