I posted this in another thread, but it deserves it's own:

Jaguar reliability is no worse than BMW, Mercedes, or Audi. The problem comes from 30 years of building junk at high prices during the 70's, 80's, and 90's. That's an entire generation that was brought up thinking that Jaguars are crap. why do you think Jag's demographic, until recently, was virtually elderly. Because...only people over 65 remember Jaguar's prominence.

It takes a long time to purge such negative perception. Yet, I think they are doing a good job at changing perceptions slowly by building quality cars, with beautiful cutting edge designs, and with bonafide performance.

Still, there are things to work on....

Jaguar has to pin down the branding of their Performance line. Is it "S", "R", "R-S"...it may sound silly, but it matters. There is only 1 BMW M ...only 1 AMG....yeah, they now have "M-Sport" options....and AMG has Black Series....but both M and AMG are the core, and very established. Jaguar should call their performance brand "R Performance Division"....They should badge the high performance models "R" ...that's it. And on very limited edition versions that are SUBSTANTIALLY different...call them "R-S". Example: There should be an XKR, and the true version of the XKR-S should have been what wound up being the XKR-S GT. The XKR-S that was actually produced was too incremental ...not enough for the price premium. Stop with changing the ECU programming, putting gaudy ground effects, adding some carbon fiber here and there, and stiffening the suspension a bit, and then trying to pass it off as a huge upgrade. It's not...the numbers prove it. The R-S models should be ***** out super cars....configurable dynamic mode, smaller supercharger pulley with ECU, adjustable sport exhaust, significant but tasteful body modifications. It should be like AMG Black Series. Dump the "S" moniker, and please, please stop changing the logos....it's about branding!!!

Let's boost the tech...It's sad that the new Chrysler infotainment system puts the Jaguar/Land Rover system to shame....actually, it's better than the Germans too. We don't have head's up display, night vision, fully adaptive cruise control, or other driver assists that cars in this range should have...

I'm convinced that Jaguar can be a top tier brand...it's a completely different company than 10 years ago, and the next 10 years looks bright...but it needs to focus on its efforts....and please, please nothing that resembles the BMW 550GT or Mercedes R class should ever ever be built.

 

Sheesh you're being rough on my car, lol.

The XKR-S addresses many of the soft spots the standard XKR has, and all the reviews I've watched thought the changes made a very noticeable difference to the driving dynamics of the car. As for the numbers, it's faster in a straight line and on the track. Around VIR the XKR-S is 4 seconds per lap faster, which is a significant difference. But for me it's more about the enhanced drivers car aspect, a little better feel, tighter suspension, awesome seating, a bit more power, etc. The car itself looks amazing in person, I get almost constant compliments. I think since my car is BRG, the color makes it more subtle than the sportier red or blue. The pricing is high if you buy one new, but waiting a year and buying used like I did can get you one for the same price as an XKR.

Other than that I agree with most of what you say. They could work on the badging a bit.

 

Matt: no disrespect at all. You don't even want to hear what I have to say about the XFR-S... :-) Seriously though, all I am saying is that they should have made the XKR-S with its incremental improvements the new "XKR"... Up until recently, the XKR was still their sporting flagship. There would have been nothing wrong with a 550 hp XKR which would have sat slightly more sporting and powerful than the XFR. The price differential should have been only a $5,000 increase. They could have then made more money in the aggregate through more volume at the higher price and with positive press....


While they were at it, Jaguar should have updated the infotainment system on the XKR...to showcase its refresh...

 

I agree with your assessment and could not have said it better. I do wish that the XF had the 380 HP six from the F Type. I have the 5.0 385 and love it. Maybe they should call it the XF 6 S...

 

A few months ago i was at the mall and looking at a demo XJ, an older lady walked to the car and started rambling how unreliable the car is, you always have to put an oil pan under because they always leak oil etc. I asked her if she owns one, she replied "No". Maybe she did in the past, but yes the negative perception of the Jaguar brand is still out there.

She also said how she hated the styling on the new Jaguars - actually a good thing, demographically.

X, Mercedes has AMG, Black Series and S. They are just as confusing as Jaguars.

2013 Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG S 4MATIC - Photo #7

 

That 380 bhp number is mainly brochure hp. The torque is almost the same between those two V6 engines. The F Type V6 S fits a much lower final drive to get its acceleration advantage over the base V6.

 

I am almost surprised that the price of the r-s eventually gets to be the same as the R!
I would think/hope it would retain its value more.

 

Mercedes has this type of naming system too, but is it that much better?
I don't remember... Will have to do more research to find out. But from watching top gear, I tought it was just more Power and a tighter suspension. I could be wrong.

Lexus LFA has the Nurburgring edition.
Nissan GTR has a track pack/black edition too.

They are harping at the idea of being exclusive amongst exclusive cars.

I totally agree with xfactor, Jag move on with your gps and infotainment!
It so annoying to have to have .WAV CDs to copy them over to the HD!

Why have they not changed this yet?

 

In my opinion, I don't think there is any doubt the R-S will retain its value more in the long run against the same year model XKR. But if you want to buy a used XKR-S right now, look at one with 5k-10k miles that is a year or so old. Because of the first year depreciation, they can be found with similar pricing to a new XKR. For me it was a no-brainer and I absolutely love my XKR-S vert.

But, there is no way I would have spent $140k on a new XKR-S convertible, that's just too high IMO. I think MSRP should have been maybe 10k over XKR. Maybe I am wrong though, because they didn't have a problem selling out the 2012 models before they even hit the shores.

 

I think the challenge for Jag is to maintain their own path.

Jags are unique and I want them to stay that way. The car world is hodge podge of similar cars from different automakers. I don't really care about the infotainment complaints, and I certainly don't want that to be the Jag identity! The system works, its a small part of the car. For me, the focus should be on driving dynamics and the beautiful experience that sliding into a Jaguar cabin is.

Keep the cars unique, don't model Jag on anything else, don't aspire to be a high volume business and pursue the excellence that led to the most recent generation of cars and all will be great.

 

Couldn't agree with you more. While business realities like meeting payroll will require certain compromises, I would certainly like to see Jaguar continue to march to a more interesting and unique drummer. I have spoken with a lot of people (in the US and elsewhere) over the years about why they bought a BMW, for example, and the answer is so often a version of, "because it's a BMW." They lack any passion about the vehicle - they are the classic poseurs. Obviously not all buyers of those cars are like that, but there are quite a number.

Now, I have no allusions that all Jaguar buyers care really deeply about the brand or heritage, but I have to think a higher percentage have made a more "involved" decision. I hope that the cars Jaguar will offer continue to attract those who want to think a bit more, or have their emotions involved a bit more. Personally, I've loved the brand for a long time and lamented when it went through rough patches (more like rough decades!!), and I really hope the character of the brand (or, maybe, the reinvigorated character) will flourish and result in long term success.

 

Aside from the current down sizing in the Jaguar Engines and leaning towards the ECO side of things in the industry...I think and firmly believe Jaguar has literally reinvented themselves and rose from the ashes of Lucas and Ford....Most people I talk to don't realize that an Indian company named TATA has taken over in the past 4 years and turned the Brand around.

 

I have a 2012 XFR and was given a BMW M6 convertible to test drive for the last 3 days. While the convertible top was a nice feature, I prefer the Jag overall. The BMW was quirky to operate and the acceleration had some lag although it did give you a kick in the pants when it engaged. But everything seemed so complicated. Buttons and options everywhere. I constantly had to put the car in Sport Plus and adjust the ride. There may be a way to reconfigure these performance options but it was a pain. The huge screen was nice as was the heads up display and parking assist which was amazing. You get a bird's eye 360 degree view so you see the curb and everything else around you. Very cool. But there's a lag time for everything - much worse than waiting for the shifter to rise on the Jag. There's no Park so you have to set and release the brake to move - a pain. The only real plus was the exhaust note that was very sweet. I think the Jag XFR exhaust note is too low and went with the Mina which was a good compromise for the money. Anyway, the BMW M6 does come across as a true no compromises performance vehicle but it really had no personality like the Jag or the cache. It was not an eye catcher as no one really pain much attention to it - other than other beamer owners. In contrast, the Jag XFR (and S and R-S) are exclusive and you see a lot less of them on the road (and I live in West Los Angeles - with the you are what you drive culture). The M6 styling is somewhat unique but still close to a 6 series and does not get the looks of inquiry that I see when I drive the Jag. Valets are constantly complimenting the Jag when they bring up the car. Even at Comic Con in San Diego, people were staring at and talking to me about the Jag XFR because it is not a common car. I also test drove a 2010 911 convertible for a week and a Maserati QP convertible for a week. Only the Maserati rivals the XFR. It has an incredible exhaust note and is a head turner. It looks gorgeous and people notice it and talk to you about it. But overall, IMHO there is nothing quite as enjoyable as driving the XFR. It has a lot of personality (like my older sports cars) and an immense reserve of power. In Polar White - it's a sleeper - it does not telegraph its status as a performance vehicle which I like - no speeding tickets to date. I was fortunate enough to see the F-Type production line in Birmingham, UK and that may be my next car.

 

To be fair it was Ford which turned the brand around with the first all aluminum XJ, followed by the XK and the XF. Tata provided the capital to allow Jaguar to build a market for those cars. In fact, the F Type was probably 99% developed before Tata came on the scene.

Ford worldwide builds some extremely good cars and is doing very well, the only American manufacturer to do so unassisted by government.

 

Ford made a huge mistake selling Jaguar. Both brands will suffer. Ford could have used the XF and XJ platforms for the Lincoln brand which now appears to be almost DOA. Can't have luxury without RWD...and the only RWD platform Ford's lineup is that of the Mustang. For that reason alone, Ford should have kept Jaguar. Alan Mulally (Ford CEO) is responsible for this mistake which essentially has led to the short term (and maybe permanent) death of Lincoln. Alan is not a car guy and does not have "gasoline in his blood". And Jaguar has lost the support of a MAJOR engineering and manufacturing resource. Both companies loose.

 

I agree that it was very unfortunate timing for the sale, given that Jaguar, under Ford ownership and guidance was coming out with a much stronger product line. Unfortunately, the reality is Ford weathered the storm (had to weather the storm, if family voting shares were to be preserved), because of some very astute financial maneuvering just in advance of the recession and one element was they simply needed the cash - cut off a limb to save the body.

About the RWD platform - the current XF still uses a version of the DEW98 chassis developed under Ford ownership and shared across a number of Ford vehicles. I'd be a little surprised if Ford didn't retain a right to use it if desired, though it hasn't been used by them for several years. They quite frankly might not think it is modern enough, as it does have some limitations.

 

More accurately Ford needed to stop bleeding cash. The $1.15 b they got from Tata would last about a week.....

 

As I said - Ford needed the cash.

 

Read it all here..

Ford Motor Sells Land Rover, Jaguar to India's Tata for $2.3B..

 

rbobzilla, you appear to have some in-depth knowledge of the situation with Ford and Jaguar. I know Ford said it needed the cash, but I don't fully buy that argument. I think they just could not foresee a profitable path for that brand and decided to shed it. IMO, the Jaguar XF/XJ RWD platforms could have provided a segue for Lincoln becoming a real luxury brand. Ford totally walked away from that opportunity and the current Lincoln (which are sold at Ford dealers) can't come close to being considered a bona fide luxury brand...as Ford now claims. Lincoln is essentially now almost dead and it will be a struggle to get this brand re-launched. It would not have taken much to have had a follow-on vehicle to the Lincoln LS based on a current Jag platform.

More importantly, what about Jaguar? Bentley has VW, RR has BMW, Aston Martin has AMG (D-B)....can Jaguar go it alone? Looking at the competitive landscape I just don't know if they can keep competitive pace. The financial support of Tata may not be enough. I tend to believe that Jaguar is not large enough to have sufficient technical and manufacturing critical mass. A technical/manufacturing partnership might be beneficial....and could be to Ford as well. Nothing wrong with getting back together after a divorce if the reasons are justified. Just my two cents.