Good evening everyone. Just wondering if anyone has added Meth injection on the 5.0SC before. I want a tune/pulley/and meth injection.

 

lots. do a search

 

From: Snow Performance Sales [mailto:sales@snowperformance.net]
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 10:36 AM

HI Adam,

With a positive displacement supercharger it can be tricky getting a boost reading if there are not vacuum lines already connected below the supercharger - it may be necessary to drill and tap for a boost reading.

The easier option may be to reference your Map sensor - I would assume your vehicle has a MAP sensor before the super charger and one after under boost. We would want to read from the sensor that is before the supercharger. Our MAFU kit ( PN 212 ) can read sensor outputs in high, medium and low Hertz as well as 0-5v signal.

We have not worked with Velocity AP to my knowledge.

Adam Purtscher
Sales Manager
P: 719-633-3811 EXT 105
F: 719-633-3496
E: sales@snowperformance.net

Snow Performance, Inc.
1017 Highway 24 East, Unit A
Woodland Park, CO 80863
Snow Performance | The Water-Methanol Injection Experts


On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 8:16 AM, Adam J wrote:
The engine I have is the same supercharged 5 liter as many models across jag / land rover lineup and has the 470hp tune. I’m sure it’s been done, but I’m not currently sure how to get a boost pressure reading as there is no boosted manifold as the supercharger is directly on top of the engine. Thinking map sensor reading is better, but the car has 2 map sensors.
Have you sold this to any other jaguar 5.0 s/c owners? And which kit?
I’m looking into a tune that will take the engine to just over 550hp and wanting to add some safety with your system.
The reality is that this is just a toy and I drive it 4-5k miles a year. I may go to drag strip twice annually. Most driving is just short 10 second pulls while driving in the hills.
The tuner I’m considering is velocity AP. Have you worked with them before?
VelocityAP 75BHP Power Pack for Jaguar XF 5.0SC and XF-R

From: Snow Performance Sales [mailto:sales@snowperformance.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 12:13 PM
To: Adam J
Subject: Re: injection kit for jaguar
HI Adam,
Thanks for reaching out !
While we do not have a model specific kit for your engine we have several that will work ! part # 212
We have a stage 2 kit that uses your MAF or MAP sensor signal to vary injection based on airflow - this is a very simple black box controller that allows everything to be mounted out of sight. part # 210
We have another stage 2 kit that uses boost pressure to vary injection - this uses a digital controller that will fit into a standard 54mm gauge pod.
If you want the top of the line kit we have stage 3 kits which use data references ( boost and fuel rail pressure ) - this also uses a digital controller made to be mounted on top of the steering column. part # 320
Let me know what kit sounds the most interesting to you and i can let you know more about it !
Adam Purtscher
Sales Manager
P: 719-633-3811 EXT 105
F: 719-633-3496
E: sales@snowperformance.net

Snow Performance, Inc.
1017 Highway 24 East, Unit A
Woodland Park, CO 80863
Snow Performance | The Water-Methanol Injection Experts

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 4:12 AM, Adam J wrote:
Hi there, I have a 2010 jaguar xf supercharged with the 5.0 engine. It’s the same engine used in several jaguar and land rover models and it’s been released in many horsepower trims from 470hp to approaching 600. I believe the tune is the only major change, with more recent models adopting a different engine management system.
Do you have a kit already developed for my vehicle?

Thanks,
Adam L. Janowski

 

I spoke with Snow a few years ago after I got my tune and pulley. I kept getting Restricted Performance when I ran it hard.

Thought the water/meth injection would:

1. Help with cooling. I was going to just run water, so if the tank ran dry I wouldn't melt the engine because of a hotter tune. Plus I didn't want to have to buy methanol and mix it in my garage. (In CA the washer fluid is different than other states, so I would have had to buy premix from Snow).

2. Keep the intake charge cooler to optimize the power in a safe way by letting the ecu increase timing and limit fuel dump as a precaution for detonation.

3. I thought the water could help with cleaning the intakes valves that might have issues because of DI.

I didn't follow through for a few reasons.

1. Once my supercharger coolant pump was replaced, no more Restricted Performance

2. I started thinking about all the wiring and plumbing needed and just didn't want the issues that could have arisen (leaks, electrical issues, etc). Plus I didn't want to be filling a tank in the trunk over my amp and sub or lose my washer sprayers to the windshield if I used that reservoir.

3. I have an extended warranty and having the system would have made it very hard to get warranty work done on the power train.

4. When I broke my rear end, I decided it had enough power.

If none of those points causes you to pause, then go for it. I know many other members would be very interested to see what I can do for this motor. But please, please do before and after dynos. Get a baseline before tune and pulley, then after tune and pulley, and a final with the meth. injection.

I spent a few more dollars on the dynos, but I truly felt it was worth it in the end. I know what each stage of mods gave me and I could without a doubt know how much value I received for the mods.

 

Thank you for the responses everyone. I will update when I decide fully what to do. These are things i want to get done by next spring.

 

This isn't strictly true - the supercharger is mounted on top of the engine, and it's a DI engine but it forces the air through the charge cooler and into the inlet manifolds either side of the supercharger, so in effect these are boosted manifolds, albeit pretty short ones - the one on the driver's side has the IAT sensor mounted in the rear of it. The passenger side has a pipe that goes to the supercharger sound symposer - probably possible to tap off this pipe too if you needed to.

I'm considering water/meth injection as a future upgrade - the only concern I had was injecting water/meth before the throttle body (as Snow Performance seem to recommend in their instructions) and therefore running the fluid through the supercharger and what affect this might have on the supercharger, it's lifespan, etc. I know the WRC teams used to (still do?) run pre-turbo water injection, but they're probably not so bothered about durability of turbos etc. The answer to this I guess is to inject the water after the supercharger, and I'd imagine it's possible to tap jets into each bank's inlet manifold, but with the supercharger, the oil cooler, and the knock sensors on the engine there's not a lot of space there!

 

Davetibbs, You should research how they are they doing it on Chevy LS supercharged motors and what effects it had on the supercharger, etc. This supercharger is essentially the same.

 

I suppose the MAP reading is no help... but why is a boost reading needed?

IAT2 getting too hot is what causes power to be cut, so watching IAT2 looks more useful. It's available via the DLC (OBD port) or just wire from it directly.

 

I'm assuming because the meth injection is only effective (or maybe even safe?!) at higher boost levels. Maybe this just avoids injection on idle?

 

The way it was explained to me you could program it to only spray at certain boost levels. I believe their best controller had two (or possibly more) levels of spray. It was one conversation years ago so I can't remember the exact details. But Snow made me comfortable enough that if I was going that direction, I would have gone with them.

Here is an article that explains their system on a supercharged Chevy LS.

http://www.lsxmag.com/tech-stories/e...w-performance/

 

Am using coolingmist system, and am pretty pleased with it. You can also set the flow progressively with boost (or map, doesn't matter), this way you can fine tune the final a/f ratio, although I am using a very small nozzle (300cc iirc), so the effects are small.

However I am not using it as in the lsxmag article, so my engine tune is not based on the extra water/meth flow, this as you add some complexity/dependency of a good working water/meth system which I wanted to avoid. If that for one reason or another isn't working as it should, you risk your engine with a sharp tune dependent on it, so extra care has to be taken so you know If the system is working properly every time.

I use it only as an insurance and to keep the internals clean, and maybe I get some extra horses, never measured that on my setup.

 

Avos. Where do you have the injector nozzle fitted for your cooling mist system?

Would I use the same location on my 2005 XJR? I am only interested in keeping internals clean.

I found this thread btw after researching carbon build up in 5.0 litre DI engines. I know mine is not however it has put me off purchasing a 2010 SC Range Rover!

 

Avos, you're using it as I was going to. Glad someone who knows as much as you do decided it was the correct way to approach it. Couldn't imaging melting an engine with too aggressive a tune and an empty water/meth tank.

 

Originally I had it after the supercharger, as KenneBell recommended against it to have it before to avoid the possibility of bearing damage. Later I changed to a smaller nozzle before the TB/Supercharger, as that would minimize the risks, which so far has worked well.

I have actually still a extra kit ready to install on our RRS diesel, the intake looks really terrible, but haven't checked yet the ports. Nice side effect for diesels is it seems you get actually some good extra horses from the water/meth injection.

 

Yes, tank is often empty, and I have had also several occasions where the flow was low or even no flow.

Funny enough I never wanted it in the beginning, but after adding so much power, the extra insurance feels really damn good now (including the cleaning).

Personally I think its way to risky to tune based on water/meth, a sharp tune is already risky on its own as there is enough that can go wrong, but each to their own of course.

 

The big issue for me is where to put the tank.

I would not want to sacrifice the window washer tank however I might sacrifice the cabin cleaner filter.

That would be a big enough area to put a tank. If not it would have to be the trunk.

Ok just read the link in post #10. So seriously considering trunk now.

 

I am actually using the window washer tank, its not sacrificing as you still can use the water/meth mixture for your windows. But its small as it only holds about 5 liters or so.

 

you are correct. it all makes so much more sense to me now that it's in pieces in my garage. the supercharger is actually upside down as compared to the typical arrangement I'd always seen in a car like a gt500 or similar. sucks air in then fires it up to charge cooler where it curls around symmetrically to and through each of the charge cooler heat exchangers and than down through the abbreviated length of "manifold" to the heads. i love the idea of a meth system using the windshield wash tank and snow says they can use sigmal from map sensor to control it somehow.. anyway there is limited real estate, which you describe, to perform the injection. i read recently that doing it ahead of the charge cooler exchangers could cause it to condense a bit on the fins and lose it atomization.. dunno.. all the cooling is done (i assume) via the change in state from liquid to gas

 

From the sounds of it, it may be too big of a pain to port it through the SC. Since I have never had my engine apart, how hard would it be to put them in the intake after the SC? Obviously you would need a block to split to all 8 runners

 

In terms of splitting for 8 runners, there are kits available.

The bigger problem I think is space - the intake manifolds don't have runners, it's more of a chamber, there's one that sits each side of the supercharger:



Even so, the biggest problem is that these intake manifolds bolt directly onto the side of the supercharger, so there's no space on the inside of them, and anyone who's done a spark plug job on one of these engines knows how close the other side of the manifold (with the sticky pad on it) is to the injectors and coils. The only place you could get the clearance for the jets is on the shorter edges of the intake manifolds (which ends up being the front and the back of the engine) - not sure if this is going to have a wide enough coverage - or maybe in top of the charge cooler.

I've looked at various ways of cooling the supercharged air (especially as the heatsoak in this bay is ridiculous) and there's no room for larger radiators inside the charge cooler - I even looked at the possibility of fitting additional Laminova heat exchangers into the charge cooler as these are meant for tight spaces but it's going to be hard to make it work. In the end it seems like methanol injection really is the best option here, it's just the best way of injecting it.

I'm sure you could work something out, either with the front/rear edges of the intake manifolds, or into the charge cooler on top. Time to do more research, I think...