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So I ordered my 3/16" allen key (which took a while to get to Portugal because it's hard to find imperial sizes here), got it last week.
Today I prepared all my tools to get ready to remove the Symposer and access the Drain/Fill plug for the Supercharger and to my surprise, the plug seems to be on the top-rear of the supercharger.
All the posts I've read over the last couple of months in preparation for this show the plug to be about 3" down from the top, at the rear.
Have I hit the jackpot here, who can tell me what the heck I've got here. I even looked up stock photos of these superchargers (TVS R1320) to be absolutely sure, but I'm sure of nothing, again.
I'll add some photos of the numbering on the front and the rear of the supercharger so maybe someone can help me out and clarify if this really is the plug (photo also added).
If this isn't the TVS R1320, can anyone tell me what it is and how much oil I should add, everyone else seems to be in agreement it 150ml, but with this one, no idea???
I've got all my tools out and ready to go, any help will be appreciated.
Thanks guys.
Expanded view On the top Also on the top Right side rear Left side front Expanded view of the plug location Plug at the top - rear
Yep, that is the AJ126 V6 with the TVS R1320 SC, and yes there are a few reports on this forum that the SC oil drain/fill hole is "on top" at the rear of the SC and not down low like that on the AJ133 V8 TVS R1900 SC.
Would the amount of oil still be 150ml (5.2 oz)?
The Eaton site chart isn't very clear because it only shows the TVS R1320 for the Audi and under Jaguar only indicates the AJ133. https://superchargersonline.com/2021...ger-oil-chart/
Alright, so it's done.
No need to remove the Symposer, of course because the Drain/Fill plug is on top.
Much easier job than the AJ133.
I took about 60ml out and couldn't get any more even though trying several times to move the tubing around in different directions.
Now, because I don't know if I hit the bottom or if I got most of it out or not, I only added 118ml (4oz). One bottle of the ACDelco Supercharger Oil.
I figure that if I'm overfilling it'll only be a few ml's and if I'm underfilling, at least it has more than before, plus it's fresh oil.
Either way I'm happy with the outcome and hopefully I don't blow the thing up from too much pressure.
Oh, and the tubing I had to use was a piece of heat shrink to get it in the hole and be able to maneuver it around inside.
Any advice if there is a better way to drain the oil (on the AJ126 SC), short of taking the SC out, of course, would be much appreciated.
I used what I had on hand, but I'm sure there are more experienced out there that have done it before in a different way.
It's just that the most time consuming of this procedure was to actually get the tubing down and not knowing if I got it all.
Yes with that method I think you will need to suction out the oil several times to try and get a more complete change. Kind of like the transmission where you can't get all the oil out either. So you are always mixing new and oil oil together.
But at least part of the oil is now new!
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I agree 100%. Thanks for your input.
I'll be doing it again in a couple months, but this time I'll replace the same amount I take out.
There's really no way of me knowing how much is in there, total, so I'm going to play it safe.
All these oil and fluid changes I've done recently (Transmission, Diff and SC) didn't make a palpable change, I don't think.
It's more of a psychological thing. Now that I know all the fluids are changed the car feels more responsive (in my mind).
Alright, so it's done.
No need to remove the Symposer, of course because the Drain/Fill plug is on top.
Much easier job than the AJ133.
I took about 60ml out and couldn't get any more even though trying several times to move the tubing around in different directions.
Now, because I don't know if I hit the bottom or if I got most of it out or not, I only added 118ml (4oz). One bottle of the ACDelco Supercharger Oil.
I figure that if I'm overfilling it'll only be a few ml's and if I'm underfilling, at least it has more than before, plus it's fresh oil.
Either way I'm happy with the outcome and hopefully I don't blow the thing up from too much pressure.
Oh, and the tubing I had to use was a piece of heat shrink to get it in the hole and be able to maneuver it around inside.
The supercharger is sealed and oil doesn't evaporate or otherwise break down, so you should put back exactly the same amount that you took out otherwise you've overfilled it.
I asked my regular mechanic if he could change my SC oil on my next service and he said... "your supercharger doesn't have oil".
He reached this conclusion after looking through the catalogue and not finding anything.
He said "The old 4.2s had oil but the new 3.0 and 5.0s don't".
....
I have absolutely no idea what to make of that... for one thing, the internet abounds with accounts of 3.0 and 5.0 owners changing their SC oil... so either they're ALL lying/hallucinating, or...
I asked my regular mechanic if he could change my SC oil on my next service and he said... "your supercharger doesn't have oil".
He reached this conclusion after looking through the catalogue and not finding anything.
He said "The old 4.2s had oil but the new 3.0 and 5.0s don't".
....
I have absolutely no idea what to make of that... for one thing, the internet abounds with accounts of 3.0 and 5.0 owners changing their SC oil... so either they're ALL lying/hallucinating, or...
Your mechanic is hallucinating, I would look for another mechanic.
The supercharger is sealed and oil doesn't evaporate or otherwise break down, so you should put back exactly the same amount that you took out otherwise you've overfilled it.
I disagree.
As others have stated, you get less out than expected! Drawn (lost) through the oil seal for example, and the oil does break down with heat and wear eventually.
"At the back of the unit is the oil fill plug- sadly I didn’t take a good picture but it’s in the red circle in the blurry picture. Eaton supercharger oil can be obtained and the fill volume is 150ml. I tipped supercharger upside down and only got out about 85ml of very dirty oil. I’m unsure why there was so little but can only assume that replacing it with the correct volume of fresh oil is a good thing."
Splash lubrication for the drive gears and the bearings if not sealed both sides, so slight overfilling, or to the makers recommendation, lets put it that way, is preferred.
If you have no idea what is in there, get as much out as you can and refill to makers recommendation.
From memory, I managed to get 87ml out and flushed, and put 150ml back in.
ref. from F type form member, and Power House,(which I do not necessarily totally agree with, but some nice photos.)
As others have stated, you get less out than expected! Drawn (lost) through the oil seal for example, and the oil does break down with heat and wear eventually.
If oil is lost through the oil seal then it's not a sealed unit, is it? It's either a sealed unit or it isn't. And when a compound "breaks down" it will break down into a larger number of smaller molecules but it can't just disappear into thin air.. breaking something down into nothing defies the laws of physics.
I may well be proven wrong but I just find it waaaaay more believable that ~50ml of old oil is stuck to the surfaces and in all the little crevasses and stuff 🤷 Gearbox and diff makers sometimes specify both "dry fill" and "wet fill" volumes for this very reason.
If you (or anyone else) can think of a way to reliably test this, let me know and I'll run the procedure. The only thing I can think of is to do the oil change, run the car for 10min or so, then suck the new oil out... the colour will tell us whether we've got new oil in there, or a mix of new and old. Not the most scientific test so if you can think of a better one, I'm all ears 👂
I thought about this "test" a bit more and here's the plan:
Suck oil from the s/c
Replace with the same volume as extracted
Drive car for a day
Repeat 3 more times
This will give us five distinct oil samples - a dirty one from the first change, a clean one, and three unknown ones from the repeated changes. If I get all the old oil out on the first go, the three repeated samples should be roughly the same colour as clean oil. If about half the old oil is left behind, I'd expect to see the three repeated samples get progressively lighter with each change.
How does that sound?
Last edited by dangoesfast; 06-19-2024 at 08:35 AM.
If oil is lost through the oil seal then it's not a sealed unit, is it? It's either a sealed unit or it isn't.
And when a compound "breaks down" it will break down into a larger number of smaller molecules but it can't just disappear into thin air.. breaking something down into nothing defies the laws of physics.
Sealed unit (rear bearing housing) TVS 1320
The rear bearing housing, is a sealed unit. It leaks, hence the loss of oil which has been commented on a number of times in posts. The two examples I give where the TVS 1320 has been removed and inverted and the drained, oil measured, and has been found to be less than 150mls, usually in the range 87ml /85mls etc.
Since there is no reported external oil leakage, the oil must leak internally, through the oil seal or the bearings into the air side of the supercharger. Which at the supercharge throat inlet will be at a negative pressure.(below atmospheric which the rear bearing housing is under)
Oil seal leakage or seep-age is common, the oil seal will only seal effectively at normal working conditions, pressures. Too high or too low outside of the operating range can result in oil seepage and oil loss. This is what I am expecting after 65K miles. and hence why a number of people are finding less than the expected oil fill on removal / draining.
Removal by removing the Supercharger and turning upside down to drain fully the contents.
As an aside, when I refilled and flushed out the rear bearing housing, turning the housing through 360 deg and rotating the rotors by hand via the belt pulley wheel and after degreasing the oily air side. There was noticeable oil seepage, wetness at the ends of the rotors, I Put 150ml in for flushing, and drained near as damn it, the same out.1 or 2ml oil loss.
No negative pressure to pull the oil seals closed on the shafts.
Breakdown.
Oil Break down is used, in the normal sense, The oil lubricant will break down overtime, pressure and temperature cycles requiring change out to maintain the required characteristics. So by loss of volume, and loss of the required characteristics. The oil will require refreshing and returned to the normal quantity to give the required protection to bearings, drive gears and seals at some time. I chose 65k while doing other maintenance work on CW pipes etc.
Originally Posted by dangoesfast
I may well be proven wrong but I just find it waaaaay more believable that ~50ml of old oil is stuck to the surfaces and in all the little crevasses and stuff 🤷 Gearbox and diff makers sometimes specify both "dry fill" and "wet fill" volumes for this very reason.
I attach a photo of the rear bearing housing, areas.
During washing degreasing. Rear bearing cover. Draining rear bearing cover, and flushing.
50ml being 150/50= 33.33% of the oil capacity? Not removed. Unlikely.
While I am saying there is only 85/87ml in the rear housing at a mileage of 65K anyway plus the various comments to this effect. While it is completely drained 56% of the original oil volume has gone/leaked.
Further, as XR3I has pointed out for the TVS 1320 the correct oil quantity fill may well be 4.5floz / 133ml. (13% less than the 150ml)
I did contact Eaton, and requested confirmation through their web page of the oil fill capacity of the TVS 1320 on the Jaguar XF, but no response. Since mostly everyone fills to 5.1fl.oz/ 150ml the same as the TVS 1900 and no negative reports have come back, that is what I refilled too, if not a little more.
There is no reason, why you cannot insert a suitable plastic line to your syringe to remove the majority of the oil, fed down the 3/16" fill plug opening.
Anyways, the rear bearing housing, has no little crevasses and stuff, it is mostly flat sided surfaces. A better firm plastic hose to reach the bottom will get most of the oil out.
I do suspect that RochaSDS managed to get the majority of the oil out, and the difference between 85 and 60ml is reasonable. 25ml if not using a firm plastic line to extract.
Since the bearing and gear drive are splash lubricated over filling of the 133ml/or 150ml slightly is no great concern. So long as there is room for expansion within the bearing housing.
Further to your second post. The number of oil changes and oil colour.
The expectation of oil volume (ml) recovered from the rear bearing housing, I attest is unreasonable for the reasons stated above. The oil while darker is free flowing and easy to extract with the suitable plastic hose/pipe.The oil that is there anyway.
I noticed no great change in oil colour after my vigorous manoeuvres and rotations of the supercharger upon draining.
The quantity of oil recovered, and the colour after changing, flushing is upto you and your findings, Which perhaps you may share with others to determine better in-car on-engine supercharger oil changing in the future.
Thanks for that info, I've been reading about this for a couple of years now and that's the most information I've seen in one place. The debates on this run hot everywhere, but they're often based on a lot of assumptions or "my mechanic said.." rather than real-world testing, so your photos are really helpful. My opinion is purely from logic and speculation as well, I'm yet to do this job myself. I've just ordered a litre of supercharger oil and I'll do the repeated oil change test next week, and what you've said about pressures and the likely leakage path does make sense and I can't see where ~50ml of oil is hiding in your pics so I'm expecting I might be proven wrong. I expect one of two results from this test:
Oil is leaking: the first oil sample will be black, the second will be a very light brown (as I still expect maybe 5% of the old oil to remain with the suction method), but the third and fourth samples should look almost new
Oil isnot leaking: the first oil sample will be black, and the second/third/fourth samples will get progressively lighter as the new oil dilutes the old oil at a ratio of approximately 70:30
Do you think that logic is sound?
I may also send all four samples to someone like Blackstone labs for analysis, which might give us some interesting information.
To confuse things even more, while I was trying to find oil locally I spoke to a speed shop that specialises in LS engines with eaton s/cs and the tech there has the same opinion as me, that the oil can't be going anywhere so you should put back the same amount as you took out 😂 😂 He never does just an oil change though, he always does a full service with the blower off the car so he's never thought to measure the amount of oil removed before.
Oil will be here next week, I'll post results when it's done!
Oil is leaking: the first oil sample will be black, the second will be a very light brown (as I still expect maybe 5% of the old oil to remain with the suction method), but the third and fourth samples should look almost new.
Oil isnot leaking: the first oil sample will be black, and the second/third/fourth samples will get progressively lighter as the new oil dilutes the old oil at a ratio of approximately 70:30
Do you think that logic is sound?
I may also send all four samples to someone like Blackstone labs for analysis, which might give us some interesting information.
Oil will be here next week, I'll post results when it's done!
What is key to this operation, is having an extraction tube which is suitable for the job / task inhand. i.e.
Will fit in the fill plug hole.
Will fit the extraction tool, or have suitable adapters to fit this tool, pump or syringe etc.
Will be small enough diameter to slip between the casing and the gear drive.
Will be strong, flexible and stiff enough to bend and slide to the bottom of the bearing casing. Plastic, nylon pipe material. something like silicon tube would be too flexible and not stiff enough.
(I have heard of the plastic oil (WD40) spray can type piping being used as an extractor on the STR eaton superchargers.) BUT MAY BE TOO BRITTLE. In this instants.
Will be long enough to have full access to the bear casing bottom by whichever route and have easy access to the extraction tool and be able to be removed refitted repeatedly and easily.
With all of the above met, it should be a fairly straight forward repeatable task.
or in other words, Suck it and See.
But I would have a practice on something first to ensure the tube/hose is manouverable, flexible ,strong enough and able to extract the new supercharger oil with the extractor you are using first, outside of the supercharger. No point going into this with tools that do not work or work well.
The colour can be expected to be much darker than the replacement oil. Which ever replacement oil is being used may be different from the original oil fill base colour. Golden/ Red etc.
When or if flushing. Then removed the supercharger belt and rotate the supercharger by hand, allowing the fresh oil to circulate over gears and bearings to splash over all internal surfaces. Is there really that much to be gained by driving around to splash lubricate 150ml of oil around the bearing housing, fill plug in and out 4 x times etc..
While oil analysis may be interesting, I am unsure of the sample size requirements of blackstones.
Splash lubricated, gear train and bearings operating at under 160 deg C, with dark coloured oil. Should give the expected overheated broken down, over worked oil due to reduced quantity with no (little) contaminates.
The mileage, quantity removed and age of the oil would be helpful information.
Very useful tips, thank you again Do you think there could be any benefit to tilting the car in any direction? I could use ramps and/or the hoist to lift the front or back, or even lift one side. The hole on my blower seems to be offset towards the passenger side. I plan to have the car in the same position for all four changes so the test is consistent.
Originally Posted by bydand
When or if flushing. Then removed the supercharger belt and rotate the supercharger by hand, allowing the fresh oil to circulate over gears and bearings to splash over all internal surfaces. Is there really that much to be gained by driving around to splash lubricate 150ml of oil around the bearing housing, fill plug in and out 4 x times etc..
Maybe not much to be gained, but I don't see a negative in driving for a day and doing the job once each morning over a few days might suit my schedule better. Plus if I'm going to pay for oil analysis then I want to make sure anything that was left behind is well mixed in!
Originally Posted by bydand
While oil analysis may be interesting, I am unsure of the sample size requirements of blackstones.
They ask for 3oz but say they can complete most tests with as little as 1oz, so I'll just send them whatever I can get out.
"Do you think there could be any benefit to tilting the car in any direction?
I could use ramps and/or the hoist to lift the front or back, or even lift one side.
The hole on my blower seems to be offset towards the passenger side.
plan to have the car in the same position for all four changes so the test is consistent."
Really depends on your extraction pipe flexibility is getting the access to the bottom of the bearing housing.
See what adjusting, repositioning the extraction pipe makes first, and then progress to the repositioning of the Car. Slope, Tilt, Front High or Low to increase the quantity extracted and the end results.
04-10-2022, 05:37 AM
Supercharger Oil Drain and Fill???
Do you think there could be any benefit to tilting the car in any direction? I could use ramps and/or the hoist to lift the front or back, or even lift one side. The hole on my blower seems to be offset towards the passenger side. I plan to have the car in the same position for all four changes so the test is consistent.