Multiple Suspension Faults (& others)
#41
06-19-2014 | 02:22 PM
After repeated calls to the dealer to request that they read the codes only and either not getting a call back or being told I have to wait for an appt. (If Advance Auto can read a code on the fly, why can't the experts?). I ordered a Jaguar Land Rover JLR IDS SDD Diagnostics OBD2 Software and Cable Kit 1999-2012 on eBay from GB. I spent $30 (US) for the expedited shipping. I'm going to do it myself. I will no longer be at the mercy of the $140 an hour code readers. This was $152 and I feel I'm going to need it again. Whether it be on this one or another or friend's cars. IDK, but I do know that I will be able to to what I want, when I want... This comes with the software, the cable, instructions, etc. <<Rant over>>
#42
06-19-2014 | 06:04 PM
You can test the relay by applying 12V to terminals 1 and 2 of the relay and using your meter to confirm continuity between contacts 3 and 5. There should conversely be no continuity between 3 and 5 when you remove the 12V from 1 and 2.
At the relay base in the fuse box, there should be 12V present at the socket into which terminal 3 of the relay fits. Based on a quick peek at the schematics, 12V should be present at that terminal at all times - it comes from a battery power buss in the fuse box that is separated from the battery only by a 175A megafuse. The 40A air suspension fuse, Fuse 6, is after the relay, on the Red power wire to the compressor.
The air suspension relay is switched on by the Air Suspension Control Module (ASM) via the Brown/Red wire at terminal 2 in the relay base. Relay terminal 1 in the socket should be at ground at all times.
Now it's a waiting game until the JLR cable and software arrive. I have a WIN 7 ULT laptop with 240GB SSD with a 1TB secondary. The software comes with a vMware installer that runs a Win XP mode which is right up my alley as I'm a Sr vMware Systems Administrator. IT's automated, so all of my education and experience will count for nothing in that aspect, but I will have fun learning the software and how to do just about anything and everything to include code keys!
#43
06-19-2014 | 06:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 19,728
Likes: 13,650
From: Crossroads of America
Since you've confirmed 12V at relay socket terminal #3, The next thing you could check would be for voltage (probably 12V but possibly less) on terminal #2 of that socket, which is the relay power-on voltage from the ASM. If there is no voltage on that terminal during the first minute or two after startup, the ASM is either not providing the proper signal to the relay to power the compressor, or there is a fault in the wiring. If you're interested, while you're waiting on your cable and software you could remove the back seat and check the ASM electrical connector and ground. The module is behind the rear seat back, and if I recall correctly, the ground stud is in that same general vicinity. While you have access to the ASM electrical connector, you could check for continuity between the connector terminal for the Brown/Red wire and the #2 terminal in the relay socket in the front fuse box.
Don
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#44
06-20-2014 | 10:24 AM
Hi Jason,
Since you've confirmed 12V at relay socket terminal #3, The next thing you could check would be for voltage (probably 12V but possibly less) on terminal #2 of that socket, which is the relay power-on voltage from the ASM. If there is no voltage on that terminal during the first minute or two after startup, the ASM is either not providing the proper signal to the relay to power the compressor, or there is a fault in the wiring. If you're interested, while you're waiting on your cable and software you could remove the back seat and check the ASM electrical connector and ground. The module is behind the rear seat back, and if I recall correctly, the ground stud is in that same general vicinity. While you have access to the ASM electrical connector, you could check for continuity between the connector terminal for the Brown/Red wire and the #2 terminal in the relay socket in the front fuse box.
Don
Since you've confirmed 12V at relay socket terminal #3, The next thing you could check would be for voltage (probably 12V but possibly less) on terminal #2 of that socket, which is the relay power-on voltage from the ASM. If there is no voltage on that terminal during the first minute or two after startup, the ASM is either not providing the proper signal to the relay to power the compressor, or there is a fault in the wiring. If you're interested, while you're waiting on your cable and software you could remove the back seat and check the ASM electrical connector and ground. The module is behind the rear seat back, and if I recall correctly, the ground stud is in that same general vicinity. While you have access to the ASM electrical connector, you could check for continuity between the connector terminal for the Brown/Red wire and the #2 terminal in the relay socket in the front fuse box.
Don
The back seat sounds like something I will try to tackle starting tonight and into this weekend if Mother Nature doesn't so what the weatherman says she's going to do (rain all weekend). I will look up the rear seat removal procedures. I think I saw a tutorial on here somewhere so I can get to the ASM... Thanks again and bast of luck!!!
Last edited by ragman1171; 06-20-2014 at 01:09 PM.
#45
06-20-2014 | 09:20 PM
Hi Jason,
Since you've confirmed 12V at relay socket terminal #3, The next thing you could check would be for voltage (probably 12V but possibly less) on terminal #2 of that socket, which is the relay power-on voltage from the ASM. If there is no voltage on that terminal during the first minute or two after startup, the ASM is either not providing the proper signal to the relay to power the compressor, or there is a fault in the wiring. If you're interested, while you're waiting on your cable and software you could remove the back seat and check the ASM electrical connector and ground. The module is behind the rear seat back, and if I recall correctly, the ground stud is in that same general vicinity. While you have access to the ASM electrical connector, you could check for continuity between the connector terminal for the Brown/Red wire and the #2 terminal in the relay socket in the front fuse box.
Don
Since you've confirmed 12V at relay socket terminal #3, The next thing you could check would be for voltage (probably 12V but possibly less) on terminal #2 of that socket, which is the relay power-on voltage from the ASM. If there is no voltage on that terminal during the first minute or two after startup, the ASM is either not providing the proper signal to the relay to power the compressor, or there is a fault in the wiring. If you're interested, while you're waiting on your cable and software you could remove the back seat and check the ASM electrical connector and ground. The module is behind the rear seat back, and if I recall correctly, the ground stud is in that same general vicinity. While you have access to the ASM electrical connector, you could check for continuity between the connector terminal for the Brown/Red wire and the #2 terminal in the relay socket in the front fuse box.
Don
I found a black wire with no end connected to it. I was unable to find the wire that would match up to it. it's in the pics. The last one shows the ground...
I got the car back together as it's supposed to storm tonight and tomorrow and I might want to go somewhere. Started the car, no compressor.... Hoping the $52 US that I paid for expedited shipping pays off. 33% of the price of the items...
#46
06-20-2014 | 10:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 19,728
Likes: 13,650
From: Crossroads of America
If you had your positive lead on terminal #2 in the relay base, where was your negative lead? On a body ground or somewhere else?
I removed the rear seat and unplugged the ACM plugs and reconnected them. IO only found one ground that was on the L side behind the seat back near the door jam about 1/3 of the way up. It looked pristine.
I was not able to locate the red/brown wire and don't have a way to test continuity that distance.
I found a black wire with no end connected to it. I was unable to find the wire that would match up to it. it's in the pics.
You're making progress! Keep us informed.
Cheers,
Don
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#47
06-21-2014 | 11:07 AM
If you had your positive lead on terminal #2 in the relay base, where was your negative lead? On a body ground or somewhere else?
Body Ground. Was that NOT the best option??? lol
Did you remove the nut and clean the wire terminals, threaded stud, washer and flat bottom of the nut? You really can't tell the condition of the connection by looking at it.
I dd not as the clouds were forming and the light was fading. With the storms all weekend, I didn't want to be caught w/o my Jag the whole weekend. Now that I know the tips and tricks to getting the back seat out, it'll be easier next time.
The schematic makes it look as though the brown wire with red tracer line should connect directly to the ASM at pin 12 of one of the connectors (CR91). To test continuity between the ASM and front fuse box you could use any piece of wire to extend your test lead (an old lamp cord, for example, or 6 feet of inexpensive wire purchased at a home center).
I have spools of red, while, and black wire in my garage, but didn't know if that would suffice. As I typed that, I realized what I was saying...
That's a coaxial wire, probably for an optional feature that was not fitted to your car, such as the antenna for an in-car mobile phone, etc.
I kinda thought it was something that I didn't have. As I didn't find a mate, I was guessing it wasn't anything I need be concerned with, but it couldn't hurt to ask.
You're making progress! Keep us informed.
Will do Don!!! Thanks again!!!
Cheers,
Body Ground. Was that NOT the best option??? lol
Did you remove the nut and clean the wire terminals, threaded stud, washer and flat bottom of the nut? You really can't tell the condition of the connection by looking at it.
I dd not as the clouds were forming and the light was fading. With the storms all weekend, I didn't want to be caught w/o my Jag the whole weekend. Now that I know the tips and tricks to getting the back seat out, it'll be easier next time.
The schematic makes it look as though the brown wire with red tracer line should connect directly to the ASM at pin 12 of one of the connectors (CR91). To test continuity between the ASM and front fuse box you could use any piece of wire to extend your test lead (an old lamp cord, for example, or 6 feet of inexpensive wire purchased at a home center).
I have spools of red, while, and black wire in my garage, but didn't know if that would suffice. As I typed that, I realized what I was saying...
That's a coaxial wire, probably for an optional feature that was not fitted to your car, such as the antenna for an in-car mobile phone, etc.
I kinda thought it was something that I didn't have. As I didn't find a mate, I was guessing it wasn't anything I need be concerned with, but it couldn't hurt to ask.
You're making progress! Keep us informed.
Will do Don!!! Thanks again!!!
Cheers,
#48
06-21-2014 | 08:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 19,728
Likes: 13,650
From: Crossroads of America
Good. If you had used the ground terminal in the relay socket, you would have first needed to confirm that it was truly at ground potential.
Did you remove the nut and clean the wire terminals, threaded stud, washer and flat bottom of the nut? You really can't tell the condition of the connection by looking at it.
I dd not as the clouds were forming and the light was fading. With the storms all weekend, I didn't want to be caught w/o my Jag the whole weekend. Now that I know the tips and tricks to getting the back seat out, it'll be easier next time.
I dd not as the clouds were forming and the light was fading. With the storms all weekend, I didn't want to be caught w/o my Jag the whole weekend. Now that I know the tips and tricks to getting the back seat out, it'll be easier next time.
It would be good to rule out ground corrosion when you can. Hopefully having the codes scanned is going to point you in the right direction.
Cheers,
Don
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AD2014 (06-22-2014)
#50
06-22-2014 | 07:04 AM
Member
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 83
Likes: 28
From: Germany
Hi Jason,
after starting the engine, fuse 12 of the rear power distribution fuse box should carry +12V (B+).
You can comprehend that from the electrical guide.
If fuse 12 does not deliver +12V, then R7, which contains two SSP (Switched System Power) relays (3 and 4) is defect and the rear power distribution fuse box has to be replaced.
The relay SSP 4 is contained in R7 and cannot be removed without soldering.
It triggers the ASM to start up over fuse 12.
Jaguar calls it a 'Non serviceable PCB relay'.
___________________________________
But what is to do when there is no +12V on fuse 12 ?
If you carefully give +12V (B+) to fuse 12 for a second when the ignition is on, then start the engine, the ASM should start to work and lift up your jaguar.
Please see the details here.
If you checked that and there is 12V+ on fuse 12, the rear power distribution fuse box is OK and the fault has to be around the ASM.
Good luck
after starting the engine, fuse 12 of the rear power distribution fuse box should carry +12V (B+).
You can comprehend that from the electrical guide.
If fuse 12 does not deliver +12V, then R7, which contains two SSP (Switched System Power) relays (3 and 4) is defect and the rear power distribution fuse box has to be replaced.
The relay SSP 4 is contained in R7 and cannot be removed without soldering.
It triggers the ASM to start up over fuse 12.
Jaguar calls it a 'Non serviceable PCB relay'.
___________________________________
But what is to do when there is no +12V on fuse 12 ?
If you carefully give +12V (B+) to fuse 12 for a second when the ignition is on, then start the engine, the ASM should start to work and lift up your jaguar.
Please see the details here.
If you checked that and there is 12V+ on fuse 12, the rear power distribution fuse box is OK and the fault has to be around the ASM.
Good luck
Last edited by LeoJagger; 06-23-2014 at 04:19 AM.
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#51
06-22-2014 | 07:23 AM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 257
Likes: 131
From: The Netherlands
Guus,
Even though you edited it as wrong reply, your reply has some relevancy to my situation as I received the email with the original info in it.
It is low all around and I have measured the top of the wheel arches to the top of the tires on all four corners. Bare in mind that about 12 hours ago, I ran the compressor manually for 90 seconds. The front two tires had about 1 1/2" and the rear had about 3/4". The tires are not "sitting" on the tires, but I am guessing that they're on the bump stops, if not close to them. I'm taken pics of all four corners, but the reflection from the measuring tape kind of washes out the actual tire space from being seen, but as I've listed what the measurements are, you can get the point. Can anyone, with a properly functioning compressor, get some fresh measurements or know where I can locate the actual measurements I am referring to or their equivalent?
I do not have the message, "car too low" on the dash, and that had me wondering, "should it be there?".
We've covered the compressors no need to go through it again as I'm sure that horse, or at least the testing I can think of, is long dead. lol
Even though your input was removed, I still found value in it and I thank you for that.
The pics are in the following order 1 is LF, 2 is LR, 3 is RR, 4 is RF
Even though you edited it as wrong reply, your reply has some relevancy to my situation as I received the email with the original info in it.
It is low all around and I have measured the top of the wheel arches to the top of the tires on all four corners. Bare in mind that about 12 hours ago, I ran the compressor manually for 90 seconds. The front two tires had about 1 1/2" and the rear had about 3/4". The tires are not "sitting" on the tires, but I am guessing that they're on the bump stops, if not close to them. I'm taken pics of all four corners, but the reflection from the measuring tape kind of washes out the actual tire space from being seen, but as I've listed what the measurements are, you can get the point. Can anyone, with a properly functioning compressor, get some fresh measurements or know where I can locate the actual measurements I am referring to or their equivalent?
I do not have the message, "car too low" on the dash, and that had me wondering, "should it be there?".
We've covered the compressors no need to go through it again as I'm sure that horse, or at least the testing I can think of, is long dead. lol
Even though your input was removed, I still found value in it and I thank you for that.
The pics are in the following order 1 is LF, 2 is LR, 3 is RR, 4 is RF
I've added two pictures of my suspension. These are 18" wheels.
The first one is normal for my car.
The second one is with all the air let out and the car at the stops.
As you can see that's a lot lower.
Guus
Last edited by Xag; 06-22-2014 at 07:41 AM.
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#52
06-22-2014 | 11:52 AM
#53
06-22-2014 | 01:55 PM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 257
Likes: 131
From: The Netherlands
I don't think you car is to low and therefore the question is if the compressor needs to be kicking in. If you feel confident you could open up one of the fittings of the front suspension and lower the car by releasing air. This would definitely force the compressor to start working after you start the car and you should see it rise again.
Just want to make sure you're not chasing something that isn't a problem!
Guus
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#55
06-22-2014 | 04:06 PM
Jason, it can take some time for the compressor to kick in. It depends on how much pressure there is in the system and reservoir. On good suspension cars it might not kick in at all if it isn't needed. What makes you thinks the compressor doesn't work?
I don't think you car is to low and therefore the question is if the compressor needs to be kicking in. If you feel confident you could open up one of the fittings of the front suspension and lower the car by releasing air. This would definitely force the compressor to start working after you start the car and you should see it rise again.
Just want to make sure you're not chasing something that isn't a problem!
Guus
I don't think you car is to low and therefore the question is if the compressor needs to be kicking in. If you feel confident you could open up one of the fittings of the front suspension and lower the car by releasing air. This would definitely force the compressor to start working after you start the car and you should see it rise again.
Just want to make sure you're not chasing something that isn't a problem!
Guus
That was a typo... I actually counted to 120. I have yet to see/hear/feel the compressor kick on and I've done cold, sitting overnight and all day, to after work, etc. It seems like the stance has changed the last few days to a varying degree, but all the tests I've done have not allowed me to see the compressor kick on by itself. It gets rather low at times over the last few days.
The CATS System Fault has been of and on intermittently and completely randomly. I can hardly wait until the code reader and software arrives! Thanks again!
#56
06-22-2014 | 04:25 PM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 257
Likes: 131
From: The Netherlands
Okay Jason, just wanted to make sure. If the car gets lower over time it should at least use the compressor to fill up the suspension and level the car.
Remember that CATS is something completely different and has nothing to do with the air system and/or height. It's part of the damper system which is of course part of the suspension but it's a different system.
Guus
Remember that CATS is something completely different and has nothing to do with the air system and/or height. It's part of the damper system which is of course part of the suspension but it's a different system.
Guus
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#57
06-22-2014 | 04:38 PM
The short answer is yes. Not only have I checked them, I have replaced them all with known working fuses and then, after no success, I used a Buss brand fuse tester to test all of them just to ensure they were still working. I tested the tester with a blown fuse that I had from days gone by. Thanks for the input!
#58
06-22-2014 | 04:42 PM
Okay Jason, just wanted to make sure. If the car gets lower over time it should at least use the compressor to fill up the suspension and level the car.
Remember that CATS is something completely different and has nothing to do with the air system and/or height. It's part of the damper system which is of course part of the suspension but it's a different system.
Guus
Remember that CATS is something completely different and has nothing to do with the air system and/or height. It's part of the damper system which is of course part of the suspension but it's a different system.
Guus
I have not heard back from when the code reader and software will be here. It will be def be worth the $200 as time passes and I can get codes when I need them and not when they can squeeze me in for $140 an hour...
#59
06-23-2014 | 01:55 AM
Member
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 83
Likes: 28
From: Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoJagger
Hi Jason,
did you check fuse 12 of the rear power distribution fuse box ?
Is there +12V on it ?
Please keep us informed.
Regards
Howdy,
The short answer is yes. Not only have I checked them, I have replaced them all with known working fuses and then, after no success, I used a Buss brand fuse tester to test all of them just to ensure they were still working. I tested the tester with a blown fuse that I had from days gone by. Thanks for the input!
Originally Posted by LeoJagger
Hi Jason,
did you check fuse 12 of the rear power distribution fuse box ?
Is there +12V on it ?
Please keep us informed.
Regards
Howdy,
The short answer is yes. Not only have I checked them, I have replaced them all with known working fuses and then, after no success, I used a Buss brand fuse tester to test all of them just to ensure they were still working. I tested the tester with a blown fuse that I had from days gone by. Thanks for the input!
Jason,
it is not the fuse that I suspect to be the culprit but the relay behind the fuse.
Consequently it is not sufficient to check the resistance of the fuse.
Please see my post #50 above.
You are a DIYer, so please perform the following steps:
- Turn ignition on
- Connect a multimeter between fuse 12 of the rear power distribution fuse box and the negative pole of the battery
- Make sure that the fuse carries a current of +12V
If there is no current on fuse 12, congratulations, you found the cause of all this mess.
If there is +12V on it, you can exclude (more or less) the rear power distribution fuse box from the list of potential culprits.
Next step will be a check of the ASM. The output of fuse 12 of the rear power distribution fuse box goes into PIN 2 of connector CR88 of the ASM and triggers the ASM to stance mode.
Of course CR88-2 should carry +12V as well when ignition is on.
Please see the electrical guide, for instance "2004 MY XJ Electrical Guide.pdf", page 51 and 77 or "x350 Electrical.pdf", page 29 and 42.
Sorry for interrupting you, Don!
Please keep us informed.
Regards
Last edited by LeoJagger; 06-23-2014 at 03:17 AM.
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#60
06-23-2014 | 10:27 AM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 19,728
Likes: 13,650
From: Crossroads of America