ECU Tuning Group | Jaguar XJ/XJL Supercharged ECU Upgrade
#61
02-22-2012, 10:24 AM
OK...no more bickering, conjecture, guesses and defensive posturing. I've done it as of today and documented results as best I could (not perfect, but gives you a pretty damn good idea).
Preface: I DO NOT LIKE MAIL ORDER TUNES. I've tuned several cars on the dyno, and all have been bench flashed, dyno and/or road tuned. However, if any Jag owner is actually a gear head an interested in tuning, you may have noticed we have limited options.
Here goes:
1. ECU Tuning Group Customer Service. Top notch!! Jags is a tuner, and as such can be a bit difficult to contact at first. I emailed, then followed up next day with a call because he asked me to. He was then super attentive through the whole process. I'm sure Jags has dyno sheets to post, but he's busy tuning cars...I for one am happy about this after having done it, so I'm posting the dynos here. Jags sent me the laptop and OBD reader and answered his personal cell phone every time I had a question and was ready and willing to walk me through every step (even though it's very, very easy). I read the file (15 minutes), emailed to Jags, he sent back tuned file (15 minutes), programmed car (10 minutes).
2. Results. Dynos posted here. I posted the baseline (mine was very strong stock...even the dyno operator commented based on the presumed 470 bhp rating...should have been in the 405rwhp neighborhood with drivetrain loss through an automatic tranny...rule of thumb of course). Mine posted three runs around 420/400 rwhp/tq. These runs were done around 11:30am in Dallas in 67 deg weather. I drove the car from cold start 10 miles to the dyno, let it cool for 45 minutes and made the runs.
Then I opened the tuning package, performed the tune. Jags was there all the way through. Buttoned it up, and per Jags drove at least 105.3 miles for the car to adapt. Drove it 113.8 to be exact, unfortunately, drove it for 1.5 hours straight to do so, directly to the dyno. Let it cool for 45 minutes and made the after tune runs. Four runs around 460/450 rwhp/rwtq at 5:45pm in Dallas in 75 deg weather.
Short story, gained 40rwhp and 50rwtq, which is AWESOME!!!!
Now, because of the temp difference, outside and car, those numbers are probably 10 low on each, but that's just a semi-educated guess, and could be more due to the excessive amount of hammering I did in the 1.5 hours of adapting the car to the new tune because I drove it hard...very hard and it was very hot.
More positives...
While I was hammering the hell out of it for 113 miles, I averaged 18mpg (was 20 for the 113 miles, but with 4 pulls and more hammering it over 156 miles total got 18 mpg) 1 better than I usually average in typical city driving!
The car shifts much, much better and is more smooth all the way across the band. Even the dyno operator noted the improved shifting on the damn dyno and commented.
You can feel it without question.
AFR was 14.8 after tune (see bottom of tuned dyno sheet, they didn't run wideband on base runs unfortunately, and I just caught that)...SOOOO MUCH BETTER and not in the danger zone everyone seems to be so worried about. You could run 87 octane in this rich sonofa3#$% stock if you wanted to...no need to worry about detonation.
OK...for those that just have to take stick to horse, I'm sure there will be a host of other questions, but I'm a converted ECU Tuning Group customer after this experience...for what it's worth.
It's a hell of a thing to buy 50rwhp for $1700...always a deal!! Throw in better drivability and it's great! Now, I can't say anything about the detectability of the tune, but Jags knows his stuff and I spoke to him at length.
Hope this helps somebody that wants it!
Jags, if you're reading, many, many thanks!
Preface: I DO NOT LIKE MAIL ORDER TUNES. I've tuned several cars on the dyno, and all have been bench flashed, dyno and/or road tuned. However, if any Jag owner is actually a gear head an interested in tuning, you may have noticed we have limited options.
Here goes:
1. ECU Tuning Group Customer Service. Top notch!! Jags is a tuner, and as such can be a bit difficult to contact at first. I emailed, then followed up next day with a call because he asked me to. He was then super attentive through the whole process. I'm sure Jags has dyno sheets to post, but he's busy tuning cars...I for one am happy about this after having done it, so I'm posting the dynos here. Jags sent me the laptop and OBD reader and answered his personal cell phone every time I had a question and was ready and willing to walk me through every step (even though it's very, very easy). I read the file (15 minutes), emailed to Jags, he sent back tuned file (15 minutes), programmed car (10 minutes).
2. Results. Dynos posted here. I posted the baseline (mine was very strong stock...even the dyno operator commented based on the presumed 470 bhp rating...should have been in the 405rwhp neighborhood with drivetrain loss through an automatic tranny...rule of thumb of course). Mine posted three runs around 420/400 rwhp/tq. These runs were done around 11:30am in Dallas in 67 deg weather. I drove the car from cold start 10 miles to the dyno, let it cool for 45 minutes and made the runs.
Then I opened the tuning package, performed the tune. Jags was there all the way through. Buttoned it up, and per Jags drove at least 105.3 miles for the car to adapt. Drove it 113.8 to be exact, unfortunately, drove it for 1.5 hours straight to do so, directly to the dyno. Let it cool for 45 minutes and made the after tune runs. Four runs around 460/450 rwhp/rwtq at 5:45pm in Dallas in 75 deg weather.
Short story, gained 40rwhp and 50rwtq, which is AWESOME!!!!
Now, because of the temp difference, outside and car, those numbers are probably 10 low on each, but that's just a semi-educated guess, and could be more due to the excessive amount of hammering I did in the 1.5 hours of adapting the car to the new tune because I drove it hard...very hard and it was very hot.
More positives...
While I was hammering the hell out of it for 113 miles, I averaged 18mpg (was 20 for the 113 miles, but with 4 pulls and more hammering it over 156 miles total got 18 mpg) 1 better than I usually average in typical city driving!
The car shifts much, much better and is more smooth all the way across the band. Even the dyno operator noted the improved shifting on the damn dyno and commented.
You can feel it without question.
AFR was 14.8 after tune (see bottom of tuned dyno sheet, they didn't run wideband on base runs unfortunately, and I just caught that)...SOOOO MUCH BETTER and not in the danger zone everyone seems to be so worried about. You could run 87 octane in this rich sonofa3#$% stock if you wanted to...no need to worry about detonation.
OK...for those that just have to take stick to horse, I'm sure there will be a host of other questions, but I'm a converted ECU Tuning Group customer after this experience...for what it's worth.
It's a hell of a thing to buy 50rwhp for $1700...always a deal!! Throw in better drivability and it's great! Now, I can't say anything about the detectability of the tune, but Jags knows his stuff and I spoke to him at length.
Hope this helps somebody that wants it!
Jags, if you're reading, many, many thanks!
#62
02-22-2012, 12:08 PM
From tests we done with this engine we averaged:
stock 399-406rwhp tuned 467-472+rwhp
stock 390-394rwtq tuned 463-479+rwtq
fuel consumption: 17mpg to 23mpg
Remember this is a 470hp engine running stock boost because it was using a stock pulley. By changing a pulley, we can raise the boost on the supercharger.
The results icarus77 achieved on his car were very close to what we expected. Again, this is just an ECU flash.
Based upon our stated gains, we came to that end result on a 470hp Jaguars averaging dyno baseline 399-406hp. After speaking with icarus77, I came to find out that prior to doing a baseline run, he cooled the engine down for an hour then strapped it down and did a few runs. During that period, the vehicle lost traction on a couple runs therefore creating a 'spike' in the dynosheet resulting in an unusual 420hp baseline run which is unheard of nor have we ever seen. After the vehicle was reprogrammed, icarus77 pounded the vehicle through it's adaptation period (105.3 miles) on the way to the dyno shop. Noticing there were no cars there, they immediately strapped the car to the dyno and proceeded to do a few runs. Although tuned gains posted by icarus77 are still high, gains could have been substantially higher if the car was actually cooled down for an hour before being strapped.
These numbers that we have posted are based on averages. Different levels of octane, temperature, altitude, etc differ from person to person.
Icarus77, even though it's been only a day, hope you're loving the car. When you're in our neck of the woods, or vice versa, we'll go out for a drink.
stock 399-406rwhp tuned 467-472+rwhp
stock 390-394rwtq tuned 463-479+rwtq
fuel consumption: 17mpg to 23mpg
Remember this is a 470hp engine running stock boost because it was using a stock pulley. By changing a pulley, we can raise the boost on the supercharger.
The results icarus77 achieved on his car were very close to what we expected. Again, this is just an ECU flash.
Based upon our stated gains, we came to that end result on a 470hp Jaguars averaging dyno baseline 399-406hp. After speaking with icarus77, I came to find out that prior to doing a baseline run, he cooled the engine down for an hour then strapped it down and did a few runs. During that period, the vehicle lost traction on a couple runs therefore creating a 'spike' in the dynosheet resulting in an unusual 420hp baseline run which is unheard of nor have we ever seen. After the vehicle was reprogrammed, icarus77 pounded the vehicle through it's adaptation period (105.3 miles) on the way to the dyno shop. Noticing there were no cars there, they immediately strapped the car to the dyno and proceeded to do a few runs. Although tuned gains posted by icarus77 are still high, gains could have been substantially higher if the car was actually cooled down for an hour before being strapped.
These numbers that we have posted are based on averages. Different levels of octane, temperature, altitude, etc differ from person to person.
Icarus77, even though it's been only a day, hope you're loving the car. When you're in our neck of the woods, or vice versa, we'll go out for a drink.
Last edited by sales@ECU Tuning Group; 02-22-2012 at 12:12 PM.
#63
02-22-2012, 01:44 PM
Haven't done my tune yet but spoke to Jags yesterday and one point is perhaps being overlooked.
This is a stock tune but remember this is also the stock engine in all current XJs and XKs. So this is not so much a tune as a release of the potential of the engine we all already have. Jags boosts that up a bit but Jaguar already engineered this into our engines but blocked it in the ECU unless you pay what amounts to an exorbitant unlock fee on the Supersport or XK-S.
Kind of reminds me when Intel sold throttled CPUs that you could buy codes for to get extra speed out of.
This is a stock tune but remember this is also the stock engine in all current XJs and XKs. So this is not so much a tune as a release of the potential of the engine we all already have. Jags boosts that up a bit but Jaguar already engineered this into our engines but blocked it in the ECU unless you pay what amounts to an exorbitant unlock fee on the Supersport or XK-S.
Kind of reminds me when Intel sold throttled CPUs that you could buy codes for to get extra speed out of.
#64
02-22-2012, 03:34 PM
Manufacturers tune to provide a safety margin adequate to cover varying engine and operating conditions. ECU is tuning more aggressively by reducing that safety margin...there's no free lunch.
The XKR-S doesn't make more power simply from an even more aggressive tune as suggested. It has a less restrictive exhaust system that improves engine volumetric efficiency, thereby increasing engine airflow at any given boost level, and more airflow means more power. I'd be very surprised if there weren't other airflow improvements as well, but that sort of info will be very hard to come by.
Bruce
The XKR-S doesn't make more power simply from an even more aggressive tune as suggested. It has a less restrictive exhaust system that improves engine volumetric efficiency, thereby increasing engine airflow at any given boost level, and more airflow means more power. I'd be very surprised if there weren't other airflow improvements as well, but that sort of info will be very hard to come by.
Bruce
#65
02-22-2012, 03:58 PM
Definitely an acceptable range for normally aspirated engines...but this engine is not an na. You're now running forced-induction at 14.8, which is at the lean end of the na scale, when in fact it should be richer than that range, and probably closer to 12.5:1. That's a big difference, and your tuner should be addressing that issue right now.
I've run modified forced induction engines for years, and discussed tuning strategy with a number of tuners, and 13.0:1 is about as lean as anyone suggests, even with a knock sensor monitoring. Like I said, maybe there's something about the Jaguar setup that breaks the rules, and if so that should be explained, otherwise I fear you'll suffer premature engine wear...or worse.
Bruce
I've run modified forced induction engines for years, and discussed tuning strategy with a number of tuners, and 13.0:1 is about as lean as anyone suggests, even with a knock sensor monitoring. Like I said, maybe there's something about the Jaguar setup that breaks the rules, and if so that should be explained, otherwise I fear you'll suffer premature engine wear...or worse.
Bruce
#66
02-22-2012, 04:21 PM
Bruce, you make excellent points on the AFR...hope you got mine about the rwhp vs bhp claims, whcih didn't come up again.
I called the dyno shop because I wanted to know what the "max" read was that was listed on the dyno. If you actually look at the after dyno sheet I posted, note the table at the bottom. The AFR starts out at 14.8 and at 4200rpm, note the decline to 12.5:1 at WOT to 6700rpm down to 11:1.
Maybe Jags can attest to AFRs he's seen as well.
Car is running great! No knocks, dull spots, etc. and it's 80deg here today. You would usually feel some missing/flat spots on knock detection if too lean, which is why I ran a summer and winter tune on my n/a engines (especially in 110deg TX heat).
I called the dyno shop because I wanted to know what the "max" read was that was listed on the dyno. If you actually look at the after dyno sheet I posted, note the table at the bottom. The AFR starts out at 14.8 and at 4200rpm, note the decline to 12.5:1 at WOT to 6700rpm down to 11:1.
Maybe Jags can attest to AFRs he's seen as well.
Car is running great! No knocks, dull spots, etc. and it's 80deg here today. You would usually feel some missing/flat spots on knock detection if too lean, which is why I ran a summer and winter tune on my n/a engines (especially in 110deg TX heat).
Last edited by icarus77; 02-22-2012 at 04:25 PM.
#67
02-22-2012, 04:27 PM
#68
02-22-2012, 08:16 PM
Yes, and was aware we were looking at actual rwhp vs estimated bhp claims.
I called the dyno shop because I wanted to know what the "max" read was that was listed on the dyno. If you actually look at the after dyno sheet I posted, note the table at the bottom. The AFR starts out at 14.8 and at 4200rpm, note the decline to 12.5:1 at WOT to 6700rpm down to 11:1.
Car is running great! No knocks, dull spots, etc. and it's 80deg here today. You would usually feel some missing/flat spots on knock detection if too lean, which is why I ran a summer and winter tune on my n/a engines (especially in 110deg TX heat).
Thanks again for sharing, and for encouraging a constructive discussion. You're blazing a trail for others to follow, and I hope ECU Tuning will be able to satisfy any concerns.
Bruce
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teachdocs (03-09-2012)
#69
02-22-2012, 09:51 PM
No prob Bruce. I completely agree with the adjustments, which is why I like locak tunes, but this has been a great email tune experience for me.
Part of the issue on the AFR curve us the point at which the dyno is reading too. Note some of the corresponding runs on top for that 4000rpm read window.
I know there is room to improve here, but for the current offerings in my area, this was a great deal.
The summer/winter tune is a must here for your reasons. We run most of the year over 90deg and when the morning temps hit the cool period, you get a great power surge until you have to drop in the protective winter tune!
Thanks for the points on the FI cars, and I'll keep an eye out!
Part of the issue on the AFR curve us the point at which the dyno is reading too. Note some of the corresponding runs on top for that 4000rpm read window.
I know there is room to improve here, but for the current offerings in my area, this was a great deal.
The summer/winter tune is a must here for your reasons. We run most of the year over 90deg and when the morning temps hit the cool period, you get a great power surge until you have to drop in the protective winter tune!
Thanks for the points on the FI cars, and I'll keep an eye out!
#71
03-09-2012, 10:15 AM
Yes, and was aware we were looking at actual rwhp vs estimated bhp claims.
I wasn't going to mention that, but since you've brought it up... that's not really the shape of AFR curve that you'd like to see. The goal curve would be to have the leaner AFR at only the lowest rpm before the torque starts to peak (0-2500 rpm). The rpm range with the greatest propensity to detonate is where torque is peaking (ie. 2500-5500 rpm) and this is where AFR needs to be richer to combat that propensity to detonate, as well as to manage combustion temps. I liked the 12.5 AFR, but it should start closer to 2500 rpm rather than suddenly changing at 4200 rpm, and it could have maintained that 12.5:1 right out to redline where the drop of to 11:1 has cost you 10-15 whp. Just as Jags used your stock initial results to guestimate new fuel mapping, I think he could/should have used your post tune results to refine the results to be more suitable. Having been through the email tune process you know how easily that "touch-up" could have been done, and he could likely get it pretty much spot on without confirming it with another dyno session. There's definitely something to be said for taking the car to the tuning shop where this could be optimized quickly and easily, but it could still be done using the ECU email system. A simple mail-out tune you said your opposed to goes costs much less (at least on cars that I'm experienced with), so maybe a touch up to the tune should be factored into the process.
Detonation is more likely as engine and air temps are brutal, and when much cooler (where resulting increased air density leans the AFR and increases in-cylinder pressure), and with poor quality gas. If further research indicates to you that a touch-up is warranted, I'd make those arrangements to be safe. I've run a Toyota Supra twin turbo for years on road courses, and it only once ever experienced knock. It was at Virginia International Raceway, and it was 34 deg in November! I've ran it at another event that got so hot that I was one of two cars left on the track...with no knock!
Thanks again for sharing, and for encouraging a constructive discussion. You're blazing a trail for others to follow, and I hope ECU Tuning will be able to satisfy any concerns.
Bruce
I wasn't going to mention that, but since you've brought it up... that's not really the shape of AFR curve that you'd like to see. The goal curve would be to have the leaner AFR at only the lowest rpm before the torque starts to peak (0-2500 rpm). The rpm range with the greatest propensity to detonate is where torque is peaking (ie. 2500-5500 rpm) and this is where AFR needs to be richer to combat that propensity to detonate, as well as to manage combustion temps. I liked the 12.5 AFR, but it should start closer to 2500 rpm rather than suddenly changing at 4200 rpm, and it could have maintained that 12.5:1 right out to redline where the drop of to 11:1 has cost you 10-15 whp. Just as Jags used your stock initial results to guestimate new fuel mapping, I think he could/should have used your post tune results to refine the results to be more suitable. Having been through the email tune process you know how easily that "touch-up" could have been done, and he could likely get it pretty much spot on without confirming it with another dyno session. There's definitely something to be said for taking the car to the tuning shop where this could be optimized quickly and easily, but it could still be done using the ECU email system. A simple mail-out tune you said your opposed to goes costs much less (at least on cars that I'm experienced with), so maybe a touch up to the tune should be factored into the process.
Detonation is more likely as engine and air temps are brutal, and when much cooler (where resulting increased air density leans the AFR and increases in-cylinder pressure), and with poor quality gas. If further research indicates to you that a touch-up is warranted, I'd make those arrangements to be safe. I've run a Toyota Supra twin turbo for years on road courses, and it only once ever experienced knock. It was at Virginia International Raceway, and it was 34 deg in November! I've ran it at another event that got so hot that I was one of two cars left on the track...with no knock!
Thanks again for sharing, and for encouraging a constructive discussion. You're blazing a trail for others to follow, and I hope ECU Tuning will be able to satisfy any concerns.
Bruce
I completely agree with Bruce on this. I am concerned that your current tune is putting your engine at risk. I showed the curves to my trusted local tuner, and he said the same thing. He would never let an engine out of his shop with those readings, especially a boosted engine.
We don't have ignition timing curves, boost curves, AIT curves, and AFR during the entire torque band. Just because you can't send or feel the electronic knock sensor kicking in does not mean that there are not repetitive and significant periods where the engine is running way too lean while timing retard is dialed in.
Unless I see something different on this tune, I would never put this in my Jag without some kind of post-tune touch up to address all of these concerns.
You have been warned....
#72
04-23-2012, 09:08 AM
Veteran Member
From tests we done with this engine we averaged:
stock 399-406rwhp tuned 467-472+rwhp
stock 390-394rwtq tuned 463-479+rwtq
fuel consumption: 17mpg to 23mpg
Remember this is a 470hp engine running stock boost because it was using a stock pulley. By changing a pulley, we can raise the boost on the supercharger.
The results icarus77 achieved on his car were very close to what we expected. Again, this is just an ECU flash.
Based upon our stated gains, we came to that end result on a 470hp Jaguars averaging dyno baseline 399-406hp. After speaking with icarus77, I came to find out that prior to doing a baseline run, he cooled the engine down for an hour then strapped it down and did a few runs. During that period, the vehicle lost traction on a couple runs therefore creating a 'spike' in the dynosheet resulting in an unusual 420hp baseline run which is unheard of nor have we ever seen. After the vehicle was reprogrammed, icarus77 pounded the vehicle through it's adaptation period (105.3 miles) on the way to the dyno shop. Noticing there were no cars there, they immediately strapped the car to the dyno and proceeded to do a few runs. Although tuned gains posted by icarus77 are still high, gains could have been substantially higher if the car was actually cooled down for an hour before being strapped.
These numbers that we have posted are based on averages. Different levels of octane, temperature, altitude, etc differ from person to person.
Icarus77, even though it's been only a day, hope you're loving the car. When you're in our neck of the woods, or vice versa, we'll go out for a drink.
stock 399-406rwhp tuned 467-472+rwhp
stock 390-394rwtq tuned 463-479+rwtq
fuel consumption: 17mpg to 23mpg
Remember this is a 470hp engine running stock boost because it was using a stock pulley. By changing a pulley, we can raise the boost on the supercharger.
The results icarus77 achieved on his car were very close to what we expected. Again, this is just an ECU flash.
Based upon our stated gains, we came to that end result on a 470hp Jaguars averaging dyno baseline 399-406hp. After speaking with icarus77, I came to find out that prior to doing a baseline run, he cooled the engine down for an hour then strapped it down and did a few runs. During that period, the vehicle lost traction on a couple runs therefore creating a 'spike' in the dynosheet resulting in an unusual 420hp baseline run which is unheard of nor have we ever seen. After the vehicle was reprogrammed, icarus77 pounded the vehicle through it's adaptation period (105.3 miles) on the way to the dyno shop. Noticing there were no cars there, they immediately strapped the car to the dyno and proceeded to do a few runs. Although tuned gains posted by icarus77 are still high, gains could have been substantially higher if the car was actually cooled down for an hour before being strapped.
These numbers that we have posted are based on averages. Different levels of octane, temperature, altitude, etc differ from person to person.
Icarus77, even though it's been only a day, hope you're loving the car. When you're in our neck of the woods, or vice versa, we'll go out for a drink.
#73
05-11-2012, 09:32 AM
Member
#75
05-12-2012, 12:55 PM
I've been insanely busy since December. But by way of update. Everything is great! Runs like crazy and no issues. I befriended my new local mechanic and he had no idea it was tuned. He was in the ecu but i asked him not to reflash any updates unless they were critical. He's interested in being a distributor he enjoyed the ride so much 
.
.
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sales@ECU Tuning Group (05-14-2012)
#77
05-17-2012, 09:47 PM
Member
I've been insanely busy since December. But by way of update. Everything is great! Runs like crazy and no issues. I befriended my new local mechanic and he had no idea it was tuned. He was in the ecu but i asked him not to reflash any updates unless they were critical. He's interested in being a distributor he enjoyed the ride so much .
.I think I may be headed in this direction as well at some point as I would love to give my AMG owning brethren a little something something.
Thanks again for your report!
#79
06-16-2012, 09:26 AM
#80
08-02-2012, 10:03 PM
Back again...
Still very busy, so not too much activity here, but I have 10K miles on the tune now and it's still a pleasing beast of a limo! It's actually considerably more "raw" than the CTS-V and feels great! No issues with anything, been in for service, etc.
I'm actually going to drop on the pulley and hopefully the exhaust I found a popular online vendor will fit the XJ L as well as the XJ and I'm picking that up too.
Just wished our performance selection was much better, but such a small community will never get us there.
Thanks Jags!! Sent you a PM on the pulley and new tune...fishing for a discount because I got the first tune already.
I need to dig out the meter I bought years ago and get in some 0-60 and 1/4 runs on the street for some numbers...I'll do my best to work that one in soon.
I'm actually going to drop on the pulley and hopefully the exhaust I found a popular online vendor will fit the XJ L as well as the XJ and I'm picking that up too.
Just wished our performance selection was much better, but such a small community will never get us there.
Thanks Jags!! Sent you a PM on the pulley and new tune...fishing for a discount because I got the first tune already
.I need to dig out the meter I bought years ago and get in some 0-60 and 1/4 runs on the street for some numbers...I'll do my best to work that one in soon.