Oil change/ filter
#21
07-17-2024, 10:01 AM
So, how engine manufacturer prevent that the plastic parts will not go brittle by engine oil? Anyone? Yes, fellow back there are right: With oil addictives worked together with oil company so the plastics or rubber used inside engine will not make type of plastic brittle. (or at least slower) Why this verification are not made with all engine oil manufactures? Well, too much work and costs for vehicle manufacturer, who infact only care that the vehicle last warranty / calculated service life period.
There you are: Good reason to use correct oil. You welcome.
(if you want to have exsamples, search issues with wet oil timing belts. (also Ford made for MASSIVE volumes found almost any models after 2011, including PSA vehicles) Just use of filler where have been remains of wrong oil have been caused catastrofic engine failures, because oil bath timing belt have been detoriated to the oilpump pick up)
Your engine. your money.
Last edited by Vasara; 07-17-2024 at 10:06 AM.
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dmchao (07-17-2024)
#22
07-17-2024, 11:44 AM
I haven't found a single cogent argument to use the Jaguar spec oil other than "Jaguar says so". That argument isn't good enough for me. Show me proof that the Jaguar spec oil is REQUIRED for long life. I am of the educated opinion that correct weight, use of synthetic base oil and appropriate oil change intervals are more critical to engine life than anything else. I use the cheapest 5W-20 synthetic I can find and just change it every 6K miles. I don't beat on the car before it's warmed up, I always change the oil hot and always drain through the pan, not the vacuum port (I don't own a vac kit large enough).
The AJ V8 was assembled by the same teams who slapped together other Ford motors and I can guarantee you they didn't undergo any kind of rigorous training to handle that task. Do you really think these mass produced engines are so "different" that they require a specific type of oil that is, suspiciously, either ONLY available through dealers or more expensive than unicorn p!ss? It's another way for luxury brands to separate you from your money, plain and simple. Engineers haven't been allowed to call the shots at automotive companies since before the Challenger exploded. Except in the case of the E60 BMW M5 (those V10 engines were assembled to motorsport tolerances so they actually ARE sensitive to oil choice), and we all know how that went.
If you ever have a question about why businesses do ANYTHING, just follow the money.
The AJ V8 was assembled by the same teams who slapped together other Ford motors and I can guarantee you they didn't undergo any kind of rigorous training to handle that task. Do you really think these mass produced engines are so "different" that they require a specific type of oil that is, suspiciously, either ONLY available through dealers or more expensive than unicorn p!ss? It's another way for luxury brands to separate you from your money, plain and simple. Engineers haven't been allowed to call the shots at automotive companies since before the Challenger exploded. Except in the case of the E60 BMW M5 (those V10 engines were assembled to motorsport tolerances so they actually ARE sensitive to oil choice), and we all know how that went.
If you ever have a question about why businesses do ANYTHING, just follow the money.
I can also assure you that assembly teams do get specialized training just like any other business. Multiple 120 hour weeks in global plants confirms this. Trust me, I have seen it ALL.
As Vasara mentioned, we all have free will. The liquimoly kit is maybe $50 more per change. I don't know why people even question this, with FCP the oil change is completely free for the rest of your life.
Last edited by dmchao; 07-17-2024 at 11:50 AM.
#23
07-17-2024, 03:32 PM
#25
07-17-2024, 04:03 PM
It’s oil science which should not be confused with rocket science, it’s much simpler. It’s overkill to hammer the spec debate to death, but if you want to assure yourself of a known entity just use the mfg spec
the usage of alternative oils that follow acea c5 seem to be appropriate. The jlr spec was formulated for long interval life (which we know is bad regardless) and fuel economy. It runs on low viscosity oil which is all I care to know so using a similar oil is probably fine. I just don’t know why people are so bothered by saving money on oil, the most common vehicle consumable in the world
the usage of alternative oils that follow acea c5 seem to be appropriate. The jlr spec was formulated for long interval life (which we know is bad regardless) and fuel economy. It runs on low viscosity oil which is all I care to know so using a similar oil is probably fine. I just don’t know why people are so bothered by saving money on oil, the most common vehicle consumable in the world
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wombat (07-18-2024)
#26
07-17-2024, 07:43 PM
Senior Member
It’s oil science which should not be confused with rocket science, it’s much simpler. It’s overkill to hammer the spec debate to death, but if you want to assure yourself of a known entity just use the mfg spec
the usage of alternative oils that follow acea c5 seem to be appropriate. The jlr spec was formulated for long interval life (which we know is bad regardless) and fuel economy. It runs on low viscosity oil which is all I care to know so using a similar oil is probably fine. I just don’t know why people are so bothered by saving money on oil, the most common vehicle consumable in the world
the usage of alternative oils that follow acea c5 seem to be appropriate. The jlr spec was formulated for long interval life (which we know is bad regardless) and fuel economy. It runs on low viscosity oil which is all I care to know so using a similar oil is probably fine. I just don’t know why people are so bothered by saving money on oil, the most common vehicle consumable in the world
1. I am concerned about saving money on every thing I buy because every dollar I save is $1.35 I do not have to earn.
2. Read the posts of Bigg Will in the XF250 Forum regarding oil used in his XFR.
#27
07-17-2024, 08:18 PM
Bigg Will is a reputable member and his car got totaled by its buyer, so we'll never know if it would make it to Honda Civic levels of reliability. I think this debate gets out of hand a lot on this forum and all the other LR/Jag spaces. The reason to use a mfg spec'ed oil is simply to vet testing results against estimated performance. You can use a known entity (mfg specified oil), or a less known entity (self specified oil).
Long oil intervals are not something we should be concerned about, frequent changes will improve lubricity and breakdown of performance every single time and that's why manufacturers run heat age testing. The oil is designed to "last" longer in test conditions, but the real world often challenges that.
Preventative maintenance always outperforms emergency repair. Oil changes are cheap insurance. But of course we are all independent folks, doing what we do. Taking calculated risks is one thing, but when folks suggest just using off the shelf oil selected based on price alone, that's not a calculated decision.
Long oil intervals are not something we should be concerned about, frequent changes will improve lubricity and breakdown of performance every single time and that's why manufacturers run heat age testing. The oil is designed to "last" longer in test conditions, but the real world often challenges that.
Preventative maintenance always outperforms emergency repair. Oil changes are cheap insurance. But of course we are all independent folks, doing what we do. Taking calculated risks is one thing, but when folks suggest just using off the shelf oil selected based on price alone, that's not a calculated decision.
Last edited by dmchao; 07-17-2024 at 08:19 PM.
#28
07-18-2024, 09:03 AM
Veteran Member
It's mainly marketing and here is how I know?
Jaguar has a world wide marketing agreement with BP. Who makes Castrol. So Jaguar will only ever recommend Castrol. Good oil and I have no problem using it.
Now here is where the wheels fall off the cart!
While my car was under factory warranty I used the dealer for oil changes. What did the dealer use?
Shell Ultra Platinum? I was told yes Jaguar has a global agreement with BP BUT in the US the dealers were using this Shell product as Jaguar USA had a marketing agreement with Shell.
Attached is a letter from UK Engineering stating that yes indeed that Shell product is acceptable! This was after I insisted that the service manger check with Engineering since that dealership was NOT using Castrol products. Again I have no problem using the Shell Ultra Platinum oil. It is also a good oil.
Bigg Will's car and experience was very interesting. If you don't know the story he purchased a 2010 XFR new and only used Walmart 100% synthetic oil of the correct viscosity. BUT he changed it every 3000 miles! He sold the car with all original timing gear at around 110K miles. But as pointed out that is only a single example.
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Jaguar has a world wide marketing agreement with BP. Who makes Castrol. So Jaguar will only ever recommend Castrol. Good oil and I have no problem using it.
Now here is where the wheels fall off the cart!
While my car was under factory warranty I used the dealer for oil changes. What did the dealer use?
Shell Ultra Platinum? I was told yes Jaguar has a global agreement with BP BUT in the US the dealers were using this Shell product as Jaguar USA had a marketing agreement with Shell.
Attached is a letter from UK Engineering stating that yes indeed that Shell product is acceptable! This was after I insisted that the service manger check with Engineering since that dealership was NOT using Castrol products. Again I have no problem using the Shell Ultra Platinum oil. It is also a good oil.
Bigg Will's car and experience was very interesting. If you don't know the story he purchased a 2010 XFR new and only used Walmart 100% synthetic oil of the correct viscosity. BUT he changed it every 3000 miles! He sold the car with all original timing gear at around 110K miles. But as pointed out that is only a single example.
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#29
07-18-2024, 09:24 AM
Yes the recommendation of Castrol oil is a marketing agreement between the OEM and the oil manufacturer.
spec bulletin STJLR51.5122 for 0w-20 oil is what I subscribe to and contains no marketing or agendas other than to try and sell a longer oil change interval to dealers and customers.
There are gobs of oils that meet this specification nowadays. The oem spec has been typically more rigorous than industry specs. Just because something references SAE or ACEA cert standards does not mean it’s optimal for the application. Conversely, just because the oem specified a requirement set does not mean there is not a more robust product out there, but who owns that dataset?
They are not that much more expensive than Walmart oils
spec bulletin STJLR51.5122 for 0w-20 oil is what I subscribe to and contains no marketing or agendas other than to try and sell a longer oil change interval to dealers and customers.
There are gobs of oils that meet this specification nowadays. The oem spec has been typically more rigorous than industry specs. Just because something references SAE or ACEA cert standards does not mean it’s optimal for the application. Conversely, just because the oem specified a requirement set does not mean there is not a more robust product out there, but who owns that dataset?
They are not that much more expensive than Walmart oils
Last edited by dmchao; 07-18-2024 at 09:28 AM.
#30
07-18-2024, 09:50 AM
Senior Member
Preventative maintenance always outperforms emergency repair. Oil changes are cheap insurance. But of course we are all independent folks, doing what we do. Taking calculated risks is one thing, but when folks suggest just using off the shelf oil selected based on price alone, that's not a calculated decision.
I used the same logic when I checked my water pump before doing a 7000kms round trip recently. I found notable play in the water pump shaft and slight wetting. I changed my water pump using a GMB replacement/a new pipe from the water pump to expansion tank(factory), an aluminum pipe and factory o ring seals--water pump to oil cooler, brass elbow and seal for water pump vent( aftermarket) and premixed Prestone DEX-COOL . Total cost for the job was less $248 Can, I got it all right first time, no leaks, and have put 10,000 kms on the car since and still no leaks.
Last edited by Six Rotors; 07-18-2024 at 10:13 AM. Reason: logic
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dmchao (07-18-2024)
#31
07-18-2024, 09:54 AM
also that oil meets JLR spec, so I think we are in agreement here?
I see you are in Canada so the economics of lifetime free oil changes with FCP do not calculate the same way
Last edited by dmchao; 07-18-2024 at 09:56 AM.
#32
07-18-2024, 11:50 AM
Fantasies don't have to calculate anyway... Anywhere. 
As I understand from previous posts you've written you have a history of engine problems.
For example....
AJ133 Engine Noise / Ticking 5.0 XJL Supercharged - Jaguar Forums - Jaguar Enthusiasts Forum
And I believe even you stated that oil had at least something to do with some problems you had.
As I understand from previous posts you've written you have a history of engine problems.
For example....
AJ133 Engine Noise / Ticking 5.0 XJL Supercharged - Jaguar Forums - Jaguar Enthusiasts Forum
And I believe even you stated that oil had at least something to do with some problems you had.
Last edited by 12jagmark; 07-18-2024 at 12:01 PM.
#33
07-18-2024, 12:13 PM
Fantasies don't have to calculate anyway... Anywhere.
As I understand from previous posts you've written you have a history of engine problems.
For example....
AJ133 Engine Noise / Ticking 5.0 XJL Supercharged - Jaguar Forums - Jaguar Enthusiasts Forum
And I believe even you stated that oil had at least something to do with some problems you had.
As I understand from previous posts you've written you have a history of engine problems.
For example....
AJ133 Engine Noise / Ticking 5.0 XJL Supercharged - Jaguar Forums - Jaguar Enthusiasts Forum
And I believe even you stated that oil had at least something to do with some problems you had.
the oil I used had nothing to do with my replacement engine. I was leaking oil and I didn’t check my level during the year my father died and I was handling his estate.
I plan to post an update in the thread. To my surprise my supercharger coupler caused that noise. As you know engine oil and the fluid used in the supercharger are separate entities lol. None of the issues I’ve experienced are unusual for the platform and I have done preventative maintenance save for that catastrophic event. Would you believe lubrication causes issues with aged belts and tensioners? If so, that’s a different problem.
in the states it makes no sense to argue about oil if you can use FCP. I change my oil every 3k for free. My time is valuable but what it takes a few minutes to do it from the top. I’ll probably stop replying at this point. I think we agree that spec is an important consideration. We live in a free country, so do what you want, but OEMs do things for a reason. You don’t need to buy Castrol or overspend on oil, but make an informed decision. The key is to have ENOUGH of the RIGHT lubricity in the RIGHT Volume for as little time as you can afford.
Last edited by dmchao; 07-18-2024 at 02:21 PM.
#34
07-18-2024, 01:55 PM
Don´t want to throw gas in the flames, but seen this so many times before. (many different engines / brands)
From where your engine leaked oil? Thru seal? What material was the seal? Any thoughs why seal losed its flexibility and ability to work as a seal?
Might it be possible that oil have made seal hard and brittle? Just a though.
My XJ (3.0l diesel) is now 14 years old. Near 320 000 km on. (200 000 miles) All seals are still original, no leaks at all.
Only recommended oils used since new. (the price difference is about 10-15 Euros for "market" oil per change intervall)
Plastics, "rubber" seals and oils are not anymore what they used to be. They react each others.
Lovely days, enjoy your ride.
From where your engine leaked oil? Thru seal? What material was the seal? Any thoughs why seal losed its flexibility and ability to work as a seal?
Might it be possible that oil have made seal hard and brittle? Just a though.
My XJ (3.0l diesel) is now 14 years old. Near 320 000 km on. (200 000 miles) All seals are still original, no leaks at all.
Only recommended oils used since new. (the price difference is about 10-15 Euros for "market" oil per change intervall)
Plastics, "rubber" seals and oils are not anymore what they used to be. They react each others.
Lovely days, enjoy your ride.
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ralphwg (Yesterday)
#35
07-18-2024, 02:18 PM
Don´t want to throw gas in the flames, but seen this so many times before. (many different engines / brands)
From where your engine leaked oil? Thru seal? What material was the seal? Any thoughs why seal losed its flexibility and ability to work as a seal?
Might it be possible that oil have made seal hard and brittle? Just a though.
My XJ (3.0l diesel) is now 14 years old. Near 320 000 km on. (200 000 miles) All seals are still original, no leaks at all.
Only recommended oils used since new. (the price difference is about 10-15 Euros for "market" oil per change intervall)
Plastics, "rubber" seals and oils are not anymore what they used to be. They react each others.
Lovely days, enjoy your ride.
From where your engine leaked oil? Thru seal? What material was the seal? Any thoughs why seal losed its flexibility and ability to work as a seal?
Might it be possible that oil have made seal hard and brittle? Just a though.
My XJ (3.0l diesel) is now 14 years old. Near 320 000 km on. (200 000 miles) All seals are still original, no leaks at all.
Only recommended oils used since new. (the price difference is about 10-15 Euros for "market" oil per change intervall)
Plastics, "rubber" seals and oils are not anymore what they used to be. They react each others.
Lovely days, enjoy your ride.
My original engine was seeping oil in the valve cover gasket area, but towards the end it must have lost more oil elsewhere. It ran fine until one day it was 7 quarts low, and seized in traffic. I kid you not when I tell you it made no noise or lights up until that point. I hear some top end tapping, pulled over to check it out, and that's when it seized. I didn't spend the time to determine the oil loss path, it had spun a bearing in bank 1. Moral of the story, having oil is more important than not having oil
I currently have 75k miles (120km) on the replacement engine. 94k miles (151000km) on the chassis. Anyway, I feel like I'm threadjacking to reply at this point. Sorry to OP.
#36
07-18-2024, 03:09 PM
Senior Member
Just bought a couple of 5 L jugs of Castrol synthetic oil from Amazon at $17 USD each.
Has been using Mobil 1 synthetic for 30+ years on all of my family's cars without any engine issues.
Agreed with those above who thinks oil is just oil, without brand loyalties.
Just use the correct weight & change often. For me, it's once a year, since I've never drive over 6000 miles a year.
It's all marketing when Jag or any other car maker says to only use Castrol, or Shell, or whatever company they have an agreement with.
So if Jag comes out tomorrow & says to only buy gasoline from BP or Shell, & if you use gasoline from any/all other gas stations, your engine will die, you will blindly follow...?
Has been using Mobil 1 synthetic for 30+ years on all of my family's cars without any engine issues.
Agreed with those above who thinks oil is just oil, without brand loyalties.
Just use the correct weight & change often. For me, it's once a year, since I've never drive over 6000 miles a year.
It's all marketing when Jag or any other car maker says to only use Castrol, or Shell, or whatever company they have an agreement with.
So if Jag comes out tomorrow & says to only buy gasoline from BP or Shell, & if you use gasoline from any/all other gas stations, your engine will die, you will blindly follow...?
#37
07-18-2024, 03:23 PM
I'm just a nerd for data, and I'll get myself in trouble with all these debates.
Last edited by dmchao; 07-18-2024 at 03:24 PM.
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#38
07-18-2024, 04:49 PM
Here's a Pennzoil Platinum deal 10qts for $47 plus a $25 rebate card
https://slickdeals.net/f/17609595-2-...commentsHeader
https://slickdeals.net/f/17609595-2-...commentsHeader
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#39
07-18-2024, 06:20 PM
Ah yes, I love oil threads!
Jaguar has a Patent on the cam mechanism that not a lot of folks know about. It even licenses this technology to Ford.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US7841310B2/en
In other cars oil is used for lubrication, cleaning and cooling only.
In our cars it’s also used for controlling the timing of the engine.”
I took a glance at the engineering drawings on the patent paperwork. It looks suspiciously like any other VVT solenoid that everybody uses to control ignition timing these days- they survive just fine on regular oil.
Sounds like something a professional marketer would say
Agree- that's why I change oil every 5-6K instead of 10K and 15K like most OEM manufacturers "recommend". Old oil loves to leech the plasticizers out of rubber seals. Why did the OEMs start recommending extended OCIs? So they could get away with changing the oil less within the dealer warranty/free maintenance period. You STILL see this with Kia, Hyundai and select other manufacturers who package free maintenance as a post-purchase benefit. Again, follow the money. A business does not exist to produce durable products. It exists to provide value to shareholders.
I work in auto manufacturing also. While these teams do get "training" before line changeovers, it's still assembly labor paying $20-30 hourly with a 60% employee turnover rate. Unless you work in Affalterbach, this isn't the Space Shuttle or a racing car. They had to design for manufacturing and for maintenance also (although sometimes it doesn't seem like it!)
Jaguar has a Patent on the cam mechanism that not a lot of folks know about. It even licenses this technology to Ford.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US7841310B2/en
In other cars oil is used for lubrication, cleaning and cooling only.
In our cars it’s also used for controlling the timing of the engine.”
Agree- that's why I change oil every 5-6K instead of 10K and 15K like most OEM manufacturers "recommend". Old oil loves to leech the plasticizers out of rubber seals. Why did the OEMs start recommending extended OCIs? So they could get away with changing the oil less within the dealer warranty/free maintenance period. You STILL see this with Kia, Hyundai and select other manufacturers who package free maintenance as a post-purchase benefit. Again, follow the money. A business does not exist to produce durable products. It exists to provide value to shareholders.
I work in auto manufacturing also. While these teams do get "training" before line changeovers, it's still assembly labor paying $20-30 hourly with a 60% employee turnover rate. Unless you work in Affalterbach, this isn't the Space Shuttle or a racing car. They had to design for manufacturing and for maintenance also (although sometimes it doesn't seem like it!)
Last edited by Jaaag_drivah; 07-18-2024 at 06:23 PM.
#40
07-18-2024, 06:40 PM
IIRC I believe one other component of the specific recommended Castrol oil is a bit of fluorescent dye to help with leak detection.
Last edited by 12jagmark; 07-18-2024 at 06:43 PM.