Owner input on 2015 XJL AWD
#21
06-03-2015, 09:12 PM
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Mooresville, NC (Race City USA), home of most NASCAR teams.
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ExpatJag-
"Design" is "technology".
I will tell you design is just design. If what you said was the truth then every single patent troll would be right. What's on paper can't come to fruition without technology. Planes and flying to the moon was thought up and even designed decades even centuries before the actual technology existed for it to happen.[COLOR="Magenta" As a design engineer with more than 15 US patents, I can assure you that obtaining a patent is no mean feat. You confuse "designed" with "imagined".
Patents usually cite materials and specifics that make the "invention" practical. In years past you used to have to submit a working model. So the idea of "flying to the moon" was never patented, nor were perpetual motion machines.
The atomic bomb was developed by American scientists, in Chicago, not in Asia. The "father of the atomoic bomb was J. Robert IOppernheimer, an American Jew born in NY, NY in 1904.
Although an absolute brilliant man, his political leanings of the day led to accusations of him being a communist.
The atomic bomb was created by Germans who we brought to America.
Once again, the GPS navigation system is totally a product of American technology, as is the world wide internet system. the Asians didn't invent any of these things.
Again yes we invented them originally for military because it was a military project. But all commercial GPS devices use Asian technology. Sorry, again you are confused about the difference between manufacturing a device at lower cost using cheap labor, with the genius of such an advanced technology as the Global Positioning System, which no Asian envisioned or made possible. That was an American accomplishment, pure and simple, as was the internet. The same goes with the internet that was ARPANET in the beginning. And again you aren't doing anything on the internet without your DLINK Router.
Labor costs in China are low, as they are in India, and many other countries. Much of Japans' corporate manufacturing is done in back-alley mom and pop shops. And even when carried on in corporate factory's, is done by "temporary" help, who may work in their plants for years with no corporate benefits, and who can be laid off at the drop of a hat, without being considered a layoff of the corporations "regular" employees.
You keep saying that most of corporate manufacturing is done in back-alley shops. First thats an oxymoron and second it's incorrect. I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but it is far from the truth. I'm coming from first hand experience and insight gained directly from very high ranking Japanese corporate executives, and spending much time touring Japanese manufacturing facilities throughout most of Japan. And please don't misquote me . I specifically said "much", not "most".Please point me to the article or reference for this information. I studied Asian economics and Japan was and still is a manufacturing powerhouse made efficient by the teachings of Edward Demmings. They listen where American companies refused to. No offense meant, but I too am aware of the teachings of Edward Demmings and other academic Americans, and the myth that is how they provided superior manufacturing quality. I personally was required to participate in many programs at GM, Ford and Chrysler designed to close these perceived gaps in manufacturing "qualty". What I'm telling you, and anyone else who bought into this myth of superior manufacturing quality, is that it was mostly B.S. bought hook, line and sinker, by those that never learned the lessons of Pearl Harbor, and our war in the Pacific. I personally toured many plants in Japan, and came away with the distinct impression that most of their perceived quality was due to "visual inspection, and rejection of "apparent" as opposed to "real" defects.
We use to use Japanese low cost labor manufacturing sources, and have since switched to others, like China. Yes their plants are modern, and use quality control techniques, and mass manufacturing techniques developed in America, but their "success" is still attributable to the fact they will work for a bowl of rice or noodles, while Americans want a "fair" wage, based on their contorted definition of "fair".
WE didn't really use anything. At the time Japan became a technological powerhouse we where still doing things in country. Made in Japan use to be a joke until the modernized and started producing better products. And it sounds like you have never been to Japan because nobody is work for a bowl of rice or noodles there unless they are selling rice and noodles. Even at the dawn of the industrial age American worked for next to nothing 10+ hours a day in the crappiest working condition imaginable. But things changed. Again you can't phantom how many people is 2 billion. A new billionaire is made every day in China.
They still sell RCA TVs here in North America, just go into your local Walmart Store (the largest retailer in the world).
Of mostly Asian technology. And talk about people working for rice and noodles. And RCA hasn't been an American company since the 80's. Can anybody say Chrysler?
Two things caused American products to be produced "off-shore"; namely minimum wage laws and unions, both of which artificially elevated American factory wages way beyond what they were worth.
I will tell you what caused American products to lose out. The American Corporate mentality to maximize SHAREHOLDER value over all things else and the misuse of human capital. Unions and minimum wage are a direct result of Corporate abuses of workers.
Patrick.
I will tell you design is just design. If what you said was the truth then every single patent troll would be right. What's on paper can't come to fruition without technology. Planes and flying to the moon was thought up and even designed decades even centuries before the actual technology existed for it to happen.[COLOR="Magenta" As a design engineer with more than 15 US patents, I can assure you that obtaining a patent is no mean feat. You confuse "designed" with "imagined".
Patents usually cite materials and specifics that make the "invention" practical. In years past you used to have to submit a working model. So the idea of "flying to the moon" was never patented, nor were perpetual motion machines.
The atomic bomb was developed by American scientists, in Chicago, not in Asia. The "father of the atomoic bomb was J. Robert IOppernheimer, an American Jew born in NY, NY in 1904.
Although an absolute brilliant man, his political leanings of the day led to accusations of him being a communist.
The atomic bomb was created by Germans who we brought to America.
Once again, the GPS navigation system is totally a product of American technology, as is the world wide internet system. the Asians didn't invent any of these things.
Again yes we invented them originally for military because it was a military project. But all commercial GPS devices use Asian technology. Sorry, again you are confused about the difference between manufacturing a device at lower cost using cheap labor, with the genius of such an advanced technology as the Global Positioning System, which no Asian envisioned or made possible. That was an American accomplishment, pure and simple, as was the internet. The same goes with the internet that was ARPANET in the beginning. And again you aren't doing anything on the internet without your DLINK Router.
Labor costs in China are low, as they are in India, and many other countries. Much of Japans' corporate manufacturing is done in back-alley mom and pop shops. And even when carried on in corporate factory's, is done by "temporary" help, who may work in their plants for years with no corporate benefits, and who can be laid off at the drop of a hat, without being considered a layoff of the corporations "regular" employees.
You keep saying that most of corporate manufacturing is done in back-alley shops. First thats an oxymoron and second it's incorrect. I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but it is far from the truth. I'm coming from first hand experience and insight gained directly from very high ranking Japanese corporate executives, and spending much time touring Japanese manufacturing facilities throughout most of Japan. And please don't misquote me . I specifically said "much", not "most".Please point me to the article or reference for this information. I studied Asian economics and Japan was and still is a manufacturing powerhouse made efficient by the teachings of Edward Demmings. They listen where American companies refused to. No offense meant, but I too am aware of the teachings of Edward Demmings and other academic Americans, and the myth that is how they provided superior manufacturing quality. I personally was required to participate in many programs at GM, Ford and Chrysler designed to close these perceived gaps in manufacturing "qualty". What I'm telling you, and anyone else who bought into this myth of superior manufacturing quality, is that it was mostly B.S. bought hook, line and sinker, by those that never learned the lessons of Pearl Harbor, and our war in the Pacific. I personally toured many plants in Japan, and came away with the distinct impression that most of their perceived quality was due to "visual inspection, and rejection of "apparent" as opposed to "real" defects.
We use to use Japanese low cost labor manufacturing sources, and have since switched to others, like China. Yes their plants are modern, and use quality control techniques, and mass manufacturing techniques developed in America, but their "success" is still attributable to the fact they will work for a bowl of rice or noodles, while Americans want a "fair" wage, based on their contorted definition of "fair".
WE didn't really use anything. At the time Japan became a technological powerhouse we where still doing things in country. Made in Japan use to be a joke until the modernized and started producing better products. And it sounds like you have never been to Japan because nobody is work for a bowl of rice or noodles there unless they are selling rice and noodles. Even at the dawn of the industrial age American worked for next to nothing 10+ hours a day in the crappiest working condition imaginable. But things changed. Again you can't phantom how many people is 2 billion. A new billionaire is made every day in China.
They still sell RCA TVs here in North America, just go into your local Walmart Store (the largest retailer in the world).
Of mostly Asian technology. And talk about people working for rice and noodles. And RCA hasn't been an American company since the 80's. Can anybody say Chrysler?
Two things caused American products to be produced "off-shore"; namely minimum wage laws and unions, both of which artificially elevated American factory wages way beyond what they were worth.
I will tell you what caused American products to lose out. The American Corporate mentality to maximize SHAREHOLDER value over all things else and the misuse of human capital. Unions and minimum wage are a direct result of Corporate abuses of workers.
Patrick.
#22
06-04-2015, 12:44 AM
As a design engineer with more than 15 US patents, I canassure you that obtaining a patent is no mean feat. You confuse"designed" with "imagined".
Patents usually cite materials and specifics that makethe "invention" practical. In years past you used to have to submit aworking model. So the idea of "flying to the moon" was never patented,nor were perpetual motion machines.
As person with 15 or more patents then you should well enough know that just patenting something doesn't make it technology. How many patents every year go unfulfilled. Most patents never get made and are mostly ideas like flying devices whether flying to Chicago or to the moon is just vaporware until the actual technology exist to make it possible and only then whenit is created and used. Which is why there is a big push in Corporate Americato change the patent laws. I will never disagree with you that we are able to come up with great ideas any even newer gadgets put without Asia's ability through their workforce to manufacture the parts necessary to create that device its just words on paper.
The atomic bomb was developed by American scientists, in Chicago, not in Asia The "father ofthe atomoic bomb was J. Robert IOppernheimer, an American Jew born in NY, NY in1904.
Although an absolute brilliant man, his political leaningsof the day led to accusations of him being a communist.
True but Edward Teller is considered the father of the hydrogen bomb which lead the atomic bomb but he still didn't work in a vacuum. History clearly shows that he had help from the Germans we acquired before World World II. Leó Szilárd (Hungarian: Szilárd Leó; German: Leo Spitz until age 2; February 11, 1898 – May 30, 1964) was a Hungarian-American physicist and inventor. He conceived the nuclear chain reaction in 1933, patented the idea of a nuclear reactor with Enrico Fermi, and in late 1939 wrote the letter for Albert Einstein's signature that resulted in the Manhattan Project that built the atomic bomb. And again we are talking military device weapons. For the matter of this discussion we are talking about consumer products that are used by every day people and though we may design some ofthose products most are made possible my Asian manufacturing. Which wouldn't bepossible if it was as bad as you say it is. But even then its not technology until you build it.
Sorry, again you are confused about the difference between manufacturing a device at lower cost using cheap labor, with the genius of such an advanced technology as the Global Positioning System, which no Asian envisioned or made possible. That was an American accomplishment, pure and simple, as was the internet.
I am not confused about this. My first response was does it matter who invented it or does it matter who mastersthe invention and brings it to the world in a usable form. In our global world we are ALL basically using the same workforce because of their skill and ability to create things at a cost that makes it possible. No one is debating the fact tht China's labor force is cheap. That doesn't make them crap per se. You can have a highly trained cheap laborforce just as you can have a low trained highly paid workforce. Does that sound like any workforce you know? As much as I love my iPhone there is no Apple turn around without Samsung.
I'm coming from first hand experience and insight gained directly from very high ranking Japanese corporate executives, and spending much time touring Japanese manufacturing facilities throughout most of Japan.And please don't misquote me . I specifically said "much", not"most".
My intentions is never to misquote you. And if you are trying to say their substandard manufacturing plants are not better than our then I would say to that wouldn't they have a higher failrate and in the end wouldn't consumers move to products that didn't fail as much? Made in America? Which by the way has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with playing to the American Psyche of loyalism to ones own products.
Patents usually cite materials and specifics that makethe "invention" practical. In years past you used to have to submit aworking model. So the idea of "flying to the moon" was never patented,nor were perpetual motion machines.
As person with 15 or more patents then you should well enough know that just patenting something doesn't make it technology. How many patents every year go unfulfilled. Most patents never get made and are mostly ideas like flying devices whether flying to Chicago or to the moon is just vaporware until the actual technology exist to make it possible and only then whenit is created and used. Which is why there is a big push in Corporate Americato change the patent laws. I will never disagree with you that we are able to come up with great ideas any even newer gadgets put without Asia's ability through their workforce to manufacture the parts necessary to create that device its just words on paper.
The atomic bomb was developed by American scientists, in Chicago, not in Asia The "father ofthe atomoic bomb was J. Robert IOppernheimer, an American Jew born in NY, NY in1904.
Although an absolute brilliant man, his political leaningsof the day led to accusations of him being a communist.
True but Edward Teller is considered the father of the hydrogen bomb which lead the atomic bomb but he still didn't work in a vacuum. History clearly shows that he had help from the Germans we acquired before World World II. Leó Szilárd (Hungarian: Szilárd Leó; German: Leo Spitz until age 2; February 11, 1898 – May 30, 1964) was a Hungarian-American physicist and inventor. He conceived the nuclear chain reaction in 1933, patented the idea of a nuclear reactor with Enrico Fermi, and in late 1939 wrote the letter for Albert Einstein's signature that resulted in the Manhattan Project that built the atomic bomb. And again we are talking military device weapons. For the matter of this discussion we are talking about consumer products that are used by every day people and though we may design some ofthose products most are made possible my Asian manufacturing. Which wouldn't bepossible if it was as bad as you say it is. But even then its not technology until you build it.
Sorry, again you are confused about the difference between manufacturing a device at lower cost using cheap labor, with the genius of such an advanced technology as the Global Positioning System, which no Asian envisioned or made possible. That was an American accomplishment, pure and simple, as was the internet.
I am not confused about this. My first response was does it matter who invented it or does it matter who mastersthe invention and brings it to the world in a usable form. In our global world we are ALL basically using the same workforce because of their skill and ability to create things at a cost that makes it possible. No one is debating the fact tht China's labor force is cheap. That doesn't make them crap per se. You can have a highly trained cheap laborforce just as you can have a low trained highly paid workforce. Does that sound like any workforce you know? As much as I love my iPhone there is no Apple turn around without Samsung.
I'm coming from first hand experience and insight gained directly from very high ranking Japanese corporate executives, and spending much time touring Japanese manufacturing facilities throughout most of Japan.And please don't misquote me . I specifically said "much", not"most".
My intentions is never to misquote you. And if you are trying to say their substandard manufacturing plants are not better than our then I would say to that wouldn't they have a higher failrate and in the end wouldn't consumers move to products that didn't fail as much? Made in America? Which by the way has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with playing to the American Psyche of loyalism to ones own products.
Last edited by ExpatJag; 06-04-2015 at 05:40 AM. Reason: grammatic errors.
#23
06-05-2015, 10:25 PM
Senior Member
We all are looking forward to seeing your pics. Don't forget to log onto this forum on a regular basis to see what's happening, and a lot of members are here to try and help you with numerous questions you are going to have.
Enjoy. And drive safely.
#24
06-06-2015, 08:05 AM
Veteran Member
Hi Swajames: GLAD YOU GOT IT, and, welcome to the Jaguar family.
We all are looking forward to seeing your pics. Don't forget to log onto this forum on a regular basis to see what's happening, and a lot of members are here to try and help you with numerous questions you are going to have.
Enjoy. And drive safely.
We all are looking forward to seeing your pics. Don't forget to log onto this forum on a regular basis to see what's happening, and a lot of members are here to try and help you with numerous questions you are going to have.
Enjoy. And drive safely.
Again, enjoy and welcome to the site, we all try to say the right thing and educate each other. Sometimes our posts are even funny!
#25
06-07-2015, 07:27 PM
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Mooresville, NC (Race City USA), home of most NASCAR teams.
Posts: 1,818
Received 481 Likes
on
368 Posts
Hey Patrick-
The ability to produce in large quantities and low manufacturing defects were both invented in America, where the assembly line and interchangeable (high quality) parts both came to fruition before anywhere else.
In our society, both the inventor and the person who capitalizes on the invention are often one in the same, but certainly not always. Regardless most inventions like the light bulb, airplane, atom bomb, transistor, communication satellites, the Global Positioning System (GPS), and the Internet, are technologies invented by Americans, not the Japanese whose conformist society discourages individual excellence or achievement.
So to attribute "Japanese technology", i.e. the chopstick, as the "reference for the foreseeable future" is to ignore history, and world realities. American technology rules!
You are right that we live in a world market, and that we have a capitalistic society that requires investors to be rewarded out of profits and increased valuation, because they take the all the financial risks and put their money where their mouths are. Without the money to build a factory, assembly line, tooling, machinery, and automation, nobody could produce anything.
Nor could have anyone imported products from foreign lands into the U.S.. Virtually all the American sailing ships that took part in world trade were financed by SHAREHOLDERS in New England.
Unions first caused much of manufacturing to move out of the industrial North to the non-union South. But minimum wage laws, other "labor" laws, and once again labor unions, eventually caused most American manufacturers to source overseas, where people were willing to produce goods at reasonable wages, and without opposing automation and other efficiency measures which assured improved product quality.
You confuse "technology" with low cost labor producers. The first step in outsourcing is to transfer your manufacturing technology to low cost countries and their manufacturing companies so as to lower your products labor and manufacturing costs, in order to reward your SHAREHOLDERS, that is the people who own your company. Because if you don't do that, the SHAREHOLDERS will fire your ***, and find someone who can run a profitable company.
"Misuse of human capital?" "Corporate abuses of workers?" Once you export product manufacturing to foreign suppliers and lay off your domestic workers, as has happened over and over in the U.S. and other "advanced" countries, you no longer have to worry about such things. Let the ingrates live off the welfare supplied by the Marxists political parties who caused them to lose their jobs in their own country in the first place.
And if you want to check out a country where SHAREHOLDERS don't matter, visit Cuba or North Korea.
Peace,
John
The ability to produce in large quantities and low manufacturing defects were both invented in America, where the assembly line and interchangeable (high quality) parts both came to fruition before anywhere else.
In our society, both the inventor and the person who capitalizes on the invention are often one in the same, but certainly not always. Regardless most inventions like the light bulb, airplane, atom bomb, transistor, communication satellites, the Global Positioning System (GPS), and the Internet, are technologies invented by Americans, not the Japanese whose conformist society discourages individual excellence or achievement.
So to attribute "Japanese technology", i.e. the chopstick, as the "reference for the foreseeable future" is to ignore history, and world realities. American technology rules!
You are right that we live in a world market, and that we have a capitalistic society that requires investors to be rewarded out of profits and increased valuation, because they take the all the financial risks and put their money where their mouths are. Without the money to build a factory, assembly line, tooling, machinery, and automation, nobody could produce anything.
Nor could have anyone imported products from foreign lands into the U.S.. Virtually all the American sailing ships that took part in world trade were financed by SHAREHOLDERS in New England.
Unions first caused much of manufacturing to move out of the industrial North to the non-union South. But minimum wage laws, other "labor" laws, and once again labor unions, eventually caused most American manufacturers to source overseas, where people were willing to produce goods at reasonable wages, and without opposing automation and other efficiency measures which assured improved product quality.
You confuse "technology" with low cost labor producers. The first step in outsourcing is to transfer your manufacturing technology to low cost countries and their manufacturing companies so as to lower your products labor and manufacturing costs, in order to reward your SHAREHOLDERS, that is the people who own your company. Because if you don't do that, the SHAREHOLDERS will fire your ***, and find someone who can run a profitable company.
"Misuse of human capital?" "Corporate abuses of workers?" Once you export product manufacturing to foreign suppliers and lay off your domestic workers, as has happened over and over in the U.S. and other "advanced" countries, you no longer have to worry about such things. Let the ingrates live off the welfare supplied by the Marxists political parties who caused them to lose their jobs in their own country in the first place.
And if you want to check out a country where SHAREHOLDERS don't matter, visit Cuba or North Korea.
Peace,
John
Last edited by johndahlheimer; 06-07-2015 at 07:38 PM.
#26
06-10-2015, 01:50 PM
Hey Patrick-
The ability to produce in large quantities and low manufacturing defects were both invented in America, where the assembly line and interchangeable (high quality) parts both came to fruition before anywhere else.
In our society, both the inventor and the person who capitalizes on the invention are often one in the same, but certainly not always. Regardless most inventions like the light bulb, airplane, atom bomb, transistor, communication satellites, the Global Positioning System (GPS), and the Internet, are technologies invented by Americans, not the Japanese whose conformist society discourages individual excellence or achievement.
So to attribute "Japanese technology", i.e. the chopstick, as the "reference for the foreseeable future" is to ignore history, and world realities. American technology rules!
You are right that we live in a world market, and that we have a capitalistic society that requires investors to be rewarded out of profits and increased valuation, because they take the all the financial risks and put their money where their mouths are. Without the money to build a factory, assembly line, tooling, machinery, and automation, nobody could produce anything.
Nor could have anyone imported products from foreign lands into the U.S.. Virtually all the American sailing ships that took part in world trade were financed by SHAREHOLDERS in New England.
Unions first caused much of manufacturing to move out of the industrial North to the non-union South. But minimum wage laws, other "labor" laws, and once again labor unions, eventually caused most American manufacturers to source overseas, where people were willing to produce goods at reasonable wages, and without opposing automation and other efficiency measures which assured improved product quality.
You confuse "technology" with low cost labor producers. The first step in outsourcing is to transfer your manufacturing technology to low cost countries and their manufacturing companies so as to lower your products labor and manufacturing costs, in order to reward your SHAREHOLDERS, that is the people who own your company. Because if you don't do that, the SHAREHOLDERS will fire your ***, and find someone who can run a profitable company.
"Misuse of human capital?" "Corporate abuses of workers?" Once you export product manufacturing to foreign suppliers and lay off your domestic workers, as has happened over and over in the U.S. and other "advanced" countries, you no longer have to worry about such things. Let the ingrates live off the welfare supplied by the Marxists political parties who caused them to lose their jobs in their own country in the first place.
And if you want to check out a country where SHAREHOLDERS don't matter, visit Cuba or North Korea.
Peace,
John
The ability to produce in large quantities and low manufacturing defects were both invented in America, where the assembly line and interchangeable (high quality) parts both came to fruition before anywhere else.
In our society, both the inventor and the person who capitalizes on the invention are often one in the same, but certainly not always. Regardless most inventions like the light bulb, airplane, atom bomb, transistor, communication satellites, the Global Positioning System (GPS), and the Internet, are technologies invented by Americans, not the Japanese whose conformist society discourages individual excellence or achievement.
So to attribute "Japanese technology", i.e. the chopstick, as the "reference for the foreseeable future" is to ignore history, and world realities. American technology rules!
You are right that we live in a world market, and that we have a capitalistic society that requires investors to be rewarded out of profits and increased valuation, because they take the all the financial risks and put their money where their mouths are. Without the money to build a factory, assembly line, tooling, machinery, and automation, nobody could produce anything.
Nor could have anyone imported products from foreign lands into the U.S.. Virtually all the American sailing ships that took part in world trade were financed by SHAREHOLDERS in New England.
Unions first caused much of manufacturing to move out of the industrial North to the non-union South. But minimum wage laws, other "labor" laws, and once again labor unions, eventually caused most American manufacturers to source overseas, where people were willing to produce goods at reasonable wages, and without opposing automation and other efficiency measures which assured improved product quality.
You confuse "technology" with low cost labor producers. The first step in outsourcing is to transfer your manufacturing technology to low cost countries and their manufacturing companies so as to lower your products labor and manufacturing costs, in order to reward your SHAREHOLDERS, that is the people who own your company. Because if you don't do that, the SHAREHOLDERS will fire your ***, and find someone who can run a profitable company.
"Misuse of human capital?" "Corporate abuses of workers?" Once you export product manufacturing to foreign suppliers and lay off your domestic workers, as has happened over and over in the U.S. and other "advanced" countries, you no longer have to worry about such things. Let the ingrates live off the welfare supplied by the Marxists political parties who caused them to lose their jobs in their own country in the first place.
And if you want to check out a country where SHAREHOLDERS don't matter, visit Cuba or North Korea.
Peace,
John
Sorry been busy at work and modding my car some more.
The ability to produce in large quantities and low manufacturing defects were both invented in America, where the assembly line and interchangeable (high quality) parts both came to fruition before anywhere else.
In our society, both the inventor and the person who capitalizes on the invention are often one in the same, but certainly not always. Regardless most inventions like the light bulb, airplane, atom bomb, transistor, communication satellites, the Global Positioning System (GPS), and the Internet, are technologies invented by Americans, not the Japanese whose conformist society discourages individual excellence or achievement.
So to attribute "Japanese technology", i.e. the chopstick, as the "reference for the foreseeable future" is to ignore history, and world realities. American technology rules!
John the ability to build crap will always be at the place were labor wages are lower. American technology doesn't rule. American ingenuity rules. There is a huge difference. Again other than defense technology which GPS, the Atom Bomb, communication satellites were at their inception the vast majority of American inventions use oversees technology. I disagree that the inventor and the person that invents it are often one and the same. History has shown it is the person that can best maximize the usage of the invention who is the victor of the spoils. You only have to look at the history of the PC to see that. Xerox Parcs invented most of the stuff we now take for granted including the GUI but do you ever hear anybody talking about them?
You are right that we live in a world market, and that we have a capitalistic society that requires investors to be rewarded out of profits and increased valuation, because they take the all the financial risks and put their money where their mouths are. Without the money to build a factory, assembly line, tooling, machinery, and automation, nobody could produce anything.
Nor could have anyone imported products from foreign lands into the U.S.. Virtually all the American sailing ships that took part in world trade were financed by SHAREHOLDERS in New England.
Unions first caused much of manufacturing to move out of the industrial North to the non-union South. But minimum wage laws, other "labor" laws, and once again labor unions, eventually caused most American manufacturers to source overseas, where people were willing to produce goods at reasonable wages, and without opposing automation and other efficiency measures which assured improved product quality.
The belief that a corporation only is exist to maximize shareholder wealth is antiquated and misguided which has let us into the position we now find ourselves in. If that simple sentence would change shareholder to stakeholders which employees and shareholders are apart of we would have a much viable free market system.
I will give you a little story. So lets say I own a company and I need workers to produce my cogs. So I hire you and a bunch of your friends at a wage you feel is fair and I begin to make these cogs. Well in order to make more cogs because of demand I require you to work 14 hours a day with few bathroom breaks, no sick leave, and very little in workplace safety. As the owner I see my income swell to where I am making tons of profit. Nothing dictates what I have to do with my profits so I keep a lions share, give some to my investors and debtors, and use the rest to buy more raw material so I can make more cogs and keep the cycle going. At first you will accept it because you need a job and want to provide for your family. But eventually you realize you are not being rewarded for you hard work and rise in profits you know the company is obtaining and only getting to pee twice a shift really sucks. So you get with your other friends and say hey this is not fair and I am tired of seeing my friends get hurt or dying because the owner refuses to listen to our grievances about this old *** machines we are using. So you form a Union in order to get heard. Sounds familiar? Now I will submit just like the corporations once the Union realized they had power they abused it. But had the corporations treated the human capital fairly in the first place they wouldn't have found themselves in the positions they were in. So I say again greedy corporations created the need for Unions.
You have situations in the South now were Corporations and Workers are able to co-exist together and share in the profits and/or losses of the company without the need for Unions which is how it should have been in the first place. If you take care of your stakeholders 9 times out of 10 they will take care of you. Look at any society in modern history and a revolution has come about because you had some government or ruler who were pissing on their subjects and it got to the point that they had to revolt.
"Misuse of human capital?" "Corporate abuses of workers?" Once you export product manufacturing to foreign suppliers and lay off your domestic workers, as has happened over and over in the U.S. and other "advanced" countries, you no longer have to worry about such things. Let the ingrates live off the welfare supplied by the Marxists political parties who caused them to lose their jobs in their own country in the first place.
And if you want to check out a country where SHAREHOLDERS don't matter, visit Cuba or North Korea.
Regardless of where your products are made if you keep crapping on your workers you will pay for it in the end. Even right now they say a billionaire is created everyday in China. Even the Chinese middle and upper class are growing at a staggering rate and the days of 2 dollars a day wages are coming to an end. The big difference is the Population in China is four to five times bigger than ours. It will happen but maybe not as quickly. But back to technology. You feel technology is governed by the inventor and I will tell you an invention is an Idea and Technology is the marriage of an idea and the ability to produce said idea.
Now that is completely different from the original producers of a technology and the company able to better capitalize on that technology. That leads me back to the invention of the PC. As consumers do we really care who makes our products or do we just want what we want at a quality and price point we are willing to pay? I could care less that America invented the TV I just want to watch House of Cards in 4K and if Sony makes the tv I can do that with I'm happy.
As a Capitalist as you seem to be and I am we should welcome this challenge. So I invent the cell phone and Japan companies copies my invention and are able to produce it at a lower cost because of cheap labor and cheap parts. Well if they win the market then I underestimated my market in the first place. I thought people would be willing to pay my price for a superior product when in reality the consumer just wanted to be able to say hi to mom regardless of the quality of the call. Now if they are able to produce a superior product at a lower price then the problem is their availability to cheap labor not cheap manufacturing. Which is why most all of our consumer technology is made overseas.
One last thing. I will tell Cuba is like it is because of us and North Korea is just crazy. But I will take a Cuban cigar any day. And since I live in Germany that will be right now.
#27
06-10-2015, 07:54 PM
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Hello Patrick-
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I really think we agree rather than disagree on most things, except perhaps your definition of technology, which you prefer to call "American
ingenuity".
Certainly Henry Ford not only "invented" the technology of the mass production assembly line, which produced manufacturing efficiencies never before achieved, but also paid his workers far more than other employers of his day, so his workers could afford the very cars they produced, yet another technological triumph, or "ingenuous idea" introduced by an American.
He was rewarded with Unionized ingrates, who struck (robbed) his company and their shareholders, those of GM, and Chrysler or a rotational basis year after year after that.
Meanwhile, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, invented Kamikaze pilots, death marches, and attempted to rape and conquer their side of the world including China.
Some years after after they lost their war of conquest, the Japanese, after years of occupation and "nation building" by the U.S., could finally manufacture a car, with higher "quality" and ship it half-way around the world to the U.S., at lower cost, than U.S. manufacturers could produce stateside who had to pay outlandish wages to selfish workers who fought every effort to automate and improve manufacturing quality.
If you want to attribute this to "superior" Japanese "consumer technology" so be it.
After the WWII, GM produced the majority of all cars in the world.
In recent years they had to discontinue manufacturing Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles, two great and historic automobile brands, and went bankrupt, as did the city of Detroit.
Thank you, Union members, and you and yours, who virtually destroyed "Motor City" and almost brought America to it's knees.
Regards,
John
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I really think we agree rather than disagree on most things, except perhaps your definition of technology, which you prefer to call "American
ingenuity".
Certainly Henry Ford not only "invented" the technology of the mass production assembly line, which produced manufacturing efficiencies never before achieved, but also paid his workers far more than other employers of his day, so his workers could afford the very cars they produced, yet another technological triumph, or "ingenuous idea" introduced by an American.
He was rewarded with Unionized ingrates, who struck (robbed) his company and their shareholders, those of GM, and Chrysler or a rotational basis year after year after that.
Meanwhile, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, invented Kamikaze pilots, death marches, and attempted to rape and conquer their side of the world including China.
Some years after after they lost their war of conquest, the Japanese, after years of occupation and "nation building" by the U.S., could finally manufacture a car, with higher "quality" and ship it half-way around the world to the U.S., at lower cost, than U.S. manufacturers could produce stateside who had to pay outlandish wages to selfish workers who fought every effort to automate and improve manufacturing quality.
If you want to attribute this to "superior" Japanese "consumer technology" so be it.
After the WWII, GM produced the majority of all cars in the world.
In recent years they had to discontinue manufacturing Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles, two great and historic automobile brands, and went bankrupt, as did the city of Detroit.
Thank you, Union members, and you and yours, who virtually destroyed "Motor City" and almost brought America to it's knees.
Regards,
John
#28
06-11-2015, 01:26 PM
Hello Patrick-
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I really think we agree rather than disagree on most things, except perhaps your definition of technology, which you prefer to call "American
ingenuity".
Certainly Henry Ford not only "invented" the technology of the mass production assembly line, which produced manufacturing efficiencies never before achieved, but also paid his workers far more than other employers of his day, so his workers could afford the very cars they produced, yet another technological triumph, or "ingenuous idea" introduced by an American.
He was rewarded with Unionized ingrates, who struck (robbed) his company and their shareholders, those of GM, and Chrysler or a rotational basis year after year after that.
Meanwhile, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, invented Kamikaze pilots, death marches, and attempted to rape and conquer their side of the world including China.
Some years after after they lost their war of conquest, the Japanese, after years of occupation and "nation building" by the U.S., could finally manufacture a car, with higher "quality" and ship it half-way around the world to the U.S., at lower cost, than U.S. manufacturers could produce stateside who had to pay outlandish wages to selfish workers who fought every effort to automate and improve manufacturing quality.
If you want to attribute this to "superior" Japanese "consumer technology" so be it.
After the WWII, GM produced the majority of all cars in the world.
In recent years they had to discontinue manufacturing Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles, two great and historic automobile brands, and went bankrupt, as did the city of Detroit.
Thank you, Union members, and you and yours, who virtually destroyed "Motor City" and almost brought America to it's knees.
Regards,
John
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I really think we agree rather than disagree on most things, except perhaps your definition of technology, which you prefer to call "American
ingenuity".
Certainly Henry Ford not only "invented" the technology of the mass production assembly line, which produced manufacturing efficiencies never before achieved, but also paid his workers far more than other employers of his day, so his workers could afford the very cars they produced, yet another technological triumph, or "ingenuous idea" introduced by an American.
He was rewarded with Unionized ingrates, who struck (robbed) his company and their shareholders, those of GM, and Chrysler or a rotational basis year after year after that.
Meanwhile, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, invented Kamikaze pilots, death marches, and attempted to rape and conquer their side of the world including China.
Some years after after they lost their war of conquest, the Japanese, after years of occupation and "nation building" by the U.S., could finally manufacture a car, with higher "quality" and ship it half-way around the world to the U.S., at lower cost, than U.S. manufacturers could produce stateside who had to pay outlandish wages to selfish workers who fought every effort to automate and improve manufacturing quality.
If you want to attribute this to "superior" Japanese "consumer technology" so be it.
After the WWII, GM produced the majority of all cars in the world.
In recent years they had to discontinue manufacturing Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles, two great and historic automobile brands, and went bankrupt, as did the city of Detroit.
Thank you, Union members, and you and yours, who virtually destroyed "Motor City" and almost brought America to it's knees.
Regards,
John
I love business so this has been a great conversation between us. I'm sure we are boring the crap out of members that just want to talk about Jags lol. I pulled this from wikipedia.
Henry Ford (July 30, 1863 – April 7, 1947) was an American industrialist, the founder of the Ford Motor Company, and sponsor of the development of the assembly line technique of mass production.
Although Ford did not invent the automobile or the assembly line,[1] he developed and manufactured the first automobile that many middle class Americans could afford.
That supports my argument that it's not the inventor that wins its the person that best uses they invention to serve the consumer. We can not blame the Japanese for picking up the ball when we slipped. Any capitalist worth it's salt would do the same thing. And at first they made a bunch of crap which is what Made in Japan meant but slowly they turned it around and became the leader in new technologies and fabrication which is why we get the majority of our semi-conductors from Asia. Samsung is so good at it that my beloved Apple had to go back to them to make their A line of CPU's. And lets not talk about that Sapphire plant we tried to stand up that went down in flames. The following is from the reference mentioned above.
"Henry Ford did not invent the automobile. He didn’t even invent the assembly line. But more than any other single individual, he was responsible for transforming the automobile from an invention of unknown utility into an innovation that profoundly shaped the 20th century and continues to affect our lives today.
Innovators change things. They take new ideas, sometimes their own, sometimes other people’s, and develop and promote those ideas until they become an accepted part of daily life. Innovation requires self-confidence, a taste for taking risks, leadership ability and a vision of what the future should be. Henry Ford had all these characteristics, but it took him many years to develop all of them fully."
The key word is innovators. Not inventors. This is what I have been saying all along. And disagree as me may on somethings this undeniable fact is what it is.
I will agree with you that labor unions fostered their own demise but again I will tell you that they would not be necessary if corporations would just be fair to their employees. It should never be the all mighty dollars above anything else. But hey that was then this is now. Everything is made in China and will be for the forseeable future. We have to retrain our workforce and create industries that can't be shipped abroad or done for 5 dollars a day. We have to invest in our country and at the end of the day we have to make things that not only we want to buy but other countries as well.
Patrick
Last edited by ExpatJag; 06-11-2015 at 01:30 PM.
#29
06-11-2015, 06:41 PM
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Patrick-
Are you saying inventors are not innovators? Come on.
About the assembly line, yes Raymond E. Olds technically invented it to produce the Curved Dash Oldsmobile, the first really high volume car. What Henry Ford invented was the MOVING assembly line, where the car moved from work station to work station, a more efficient system than having the worker move from station to station. This is the system employed in virtually all high volume production such as major home appliances.
Again, both Olds and Ford were Americans, not Japanese, so picking fly-**** out of pepper, so to speak. doesn't change the fact Americans rule when it comes to innovations or inventions, certainly not conformist copy-cat Japanese. I'm not knocking the Japanese, they are, after all, a product of an isolated tiny group of volcanic islands that until recently was a middle-age, militaristic, non-democratic, conformist society.
Americans, on the other hand, are a mixture of escapees from many lands who share a pioneering heritage, who embrace both democracy and the capitalistic free-market system, and who live in a vast land rich in natural resources.
Incidentally, if you invented the cell phone, and had it patented in both Japan and the United States, you could take anyone or any company to court who copied it and prevent the manufacture or sale of said cell phone both in Japan or the United States (assuming your patent was valid and you had documentation to prove you were indeed the original inventor).
If you only patented the item in the United States, then any Japanese company who infringed on your patent couldn't sell the item in the United States or any of it's possessions.
A patent provides a total monopoly on the manufacture and/or sale of the invention for the life of the patent in the countries it is granted. If someone else can produce the item at lower cost, or not, is totally irrelevant.
A patent grants exclusive use of the invention to the inventor, or to the company for which the inventor works, if the inventor is employed to develop such new and improved devices.
A patented item doesn't have to be produced; the patent can be used simply to keep others from employing or utilizing a newer or better technology that might otherwise obsolete existing technology in which someone or a company already has made a large investment and/or already enjoys a dominant market share.
In an ideal world both shareholders and workers would both be considered stakeholders, and all decisions would be made based on what benefits both equitably (certainly not equally), and in fact most non-unionized companies today do strive for this.
Unfortunately labor unions often hold a gun to the the head of those who employ them, governments and businesses both small and large. Union heads and their followers demand more pay than the open marketplace would otherwise pay them for equal work, or they threaten to, or actually go on strike, commit slowdowns and/or sabotage. In this regard Union heads and their members do not believe in or really like the free market which created their jobs in the first place, and are morally are the equivalent of a gang of armed thieves, or thugs, as are the Marxist political parties which enable and encourage them to gain their votes.
As you speculated, we are probably putting others to sleep, so perhaps we should refrain from further posts on this digression, and get back to Jaguars, which are a great example of superior technology, or if you prefer, innovation.
Cheers,
John
Are you saying inventors are not innovators? Come on.
About the assembly line, yes Raymond E. Olds technically invented it to produce the Curved Dash Oldsmobile, the first really high volume car. What Henry Ford invented was the MOVING assembly line, where the car moved from work station to work station, a more efficient system than having the worker move from station to station. This is the system employed in virtually all high volume production such as major home appliances.
Again, both Olds and Ford were Americans, not Japanese, so picking fly-**** out of pepper, so to speak. doesn't change the fact Americans rule when it comes to innovations or inventions, certainly not conformist copy-cat Japanese. I'm not knocking the Japanese, they are, after all, a product of an isolated tiny group of volcanic islands that until recently was a middle-age, militaristic, non-democratic, conformist society.
Americans, on the other hand, are a mixture of escapees from many lands who share a pioneering heritage, who embrace both democracy and the capitalistic free-market system, and who live in a vast land rich in natural resources.
Incidentally, if you invented the cell phone, and had it patented in both Japan and the United States, you could take anyone or any company to court who copied it and prevent the manufacture or sale of said cell phone both in Japan or the United States (assuming your patent was valid and you had documentation to prove you were indeed the original inventor).
If you only patented the item in the United States, then any Japanese company who infringed on your patent couldn't sell the item in the United States or any of it's possessions.
A patent provides a total monopoly on the manufacture and/or sale of the invention for the life of the patent in the countries it is granted. If someone else can produce the item at lower cost, or not, is totally irrelevant.
A patent grants exclusive use of the invention to the inventor, or to the company for which the inventor works, if the inventor is employed to develop such new and improved devices.
A patented item doesn't have to be produced; the patent can be used simply to keep others from employing or utilizing a newer or better technology that might otherwise obsolete existing technology in which someone or a company already has made a large investment and/or already enjoys a dominant market share.
In an ideal world both shareholders and workers would both be considered stakeholders, and all decisions would be made based on what benefits both equitably (certainly not equally), and in fact most non-unionized companies today do strive for this.
Unfortunately labor unions often hold a gun to the the head of those who employ them, governments and businesses both small and large. Union heads and their followers demand more pay than the open marketplace would otherwise pay them for equal work, or they threaten to, or actually go on strike, commit slowdowns and/or sabotage. In this regard Union heads and their members do not believe in or really like the free market which created their jobs in the first place, and are morally are the equivalent of a gang of armed thieves, or thugs, as are the Marxist political parties which enable and encourage them to gain their votes.
As you speculated, we are probably putting others to sleep, so perhaps we should refrain from further posts on this digression, and get back to Jaguars, which are a great example of superior technology, or if you prefer, innovation.
Cheers,
John
Last edited by johndahlheimer; 06-11-2015 at 08:52 PM.
#30
06-11-2015, 11:25 PM
John,
So as not to belabor the point I will be short and succinct.
o You actually get my point. The two are not mutually exclusive. You can be an innovator and not an inventor and you can be an inventor and not an innovator. You can be both as well.
o Don't disagree with your second point. Only to say if you let a company copy a better product obviously they have the tech to do it. Or just buy the company like what has been happening for the last three decades.
o You are stating the idea of patents. In reality they no longer work like that. Design patents and its like are copied on a regular basis with no real ill effect to the copier. And a patent should never be allowed to prevent new technologies. I don't even see how that is possible unless someone knows the future and patents it before someone else makes it.
o As long as Corporations see maximizing shareholder wealth as their only responsibility Unions need to exist in some fashion to protect the interest of the small guy.
o XJ's are great. But I wouldn't call them a great example of superior technology or innovation. Again the two not being mutually exclusive.
So as not to belabor the point I will be short and succinct.
o You actually get my point. The two are not mutually exclusive. You can be an innovator and not an inventor and you can be an inventor and not an innovator. You can be both as well.
o Don't disagree with your second point. Only to say if you let a company copy a better product obviously they have the tech to do it. Or just buy the company like what has been happening for the last three decades.
o You are stating the idea of patents. In reality they no longer work like that. Design patents and its like are copied on a regular basis with no real ill effect to the copier. And a patent should never be allowed to prevent new technologies. I don't even see how that is possible unless someone knows the future and patents it before someone else makes it.
o As long as Corporations see maximizing shareholder wealth as their only responsibility Unions need to exist in some fashion to protect the interest of the small guy.
o XJ's are great. But I wouldn't call them a great example of superior technology or innovation. Again the two not being mutually exclusive.
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