I checked my battery to ground from the negative terminal in the trunk, and it looks ok to me..? But I am no tech...., so over to you experts... I would like to learn as much as I can myself, so that I can ensure this car becomes very reliable.

Thought you might also enjoy a few pics of what is my, new to me, 2013 XJL with 35,000 miles - which I hope will also allow you guys to help me better learn how to diagnose the issue and get this cat 100%...



Is that too much rust on the screw and nut - it looks pretty good when I had my head back in there, but the photo shows some corrosion - is that enough to cause ground issues?


Looks in good condition to me? But I am no professional...



I presume that red capped lead, not being connected to anything, is correct ? Or, is that a howler?


Does anything look like it's amiss here?


Unlike the early MY W140 MB S classes no wiring harness degradation that I can see...?


Anything amiss?


Same question?


Nice to see the plastic screws missing :-) - and this is a one lady owner car... (allegedly)


What is this called, or for?


Well, at least it is a slow leak... I was away traveling for 3 weeks and just before I left I topped this up. So, I do have a leak, which was expected anyway... Will deal with that after I get the electrical system working properly.

I have not yet undone the negative terminal connections to reset the BMS (?) but will try that today. Car started fine again today but I know the battery / charging issue is happening, as the Charging System Trouble red light will come on within a few miles or so, and also because the wing mirrors go to the correct position on unlocking the car....,slowly... and last night I tried a quick drive, but within a few hundred metres of having the headlights on the Charging System red light came on, so I headed home and parked it...

Will get pictures of the outside of the car once it is finally cleaned.... From the pictures in the trunk and from what I could see I see no sign of a second battery. (I allso don't have stop start happening each time the car comes to a rest) The lack of 2nd battery isn't so good, right? Does that mean mine is more of a 2012 in regards to the electrical system? ?? If so, what are the main or underlying eletcrical problems they had in 2012 but (we trust) solved / cured in 2013...

Thanks in advance for any comments and advice on the photos and my electrical challenges. This may also be of interest to some posters: -
https://www.wheelsjoint.com/jaguar-x...ator-symptoms/

PS - how do I correctt the typo in the thread subject line? Edit function seems only to allow such on the message itself...

 

The MY2013 X351 is supposed to have a small second battery behind the main one for the start/stop system.

The small pipe with the red end is to be connected to the battery to vent hydrogen gases from the boot.

Clean any apparent corrosion from the terminals and hardware; if it reoccurs, check for moisture getting into the boot.

The front struts have adaptive damping, thus the electrical connector on the strut shaft.

 

After a cold soak overnight, use a cooling system pressure tester to pressurise the cooling system to 1 bar, and check for leaks.

If the instrument cluster displays 'Low Coolant' stop the engine IMMEDIATELY and determine the source of coolant loss as catastrophic engine damage is the result.

 

Thanks for that, appreciated. Now that Verstappen is WC, will head back out and do as you kindly suggest.

My XJL clearly does not have a second battery. It came from Asia (right hand drive) and was apparently designated MY 2013, first registered in Feb 2013 with bulld date September 2012: But I may have been given inaccurate information.

There appears to be no vent hole on that battery to allow it to vent. Am I missing it? Also, whereabouts is the front ground, engine to chassis?


No sign of a second batery anywhere...

 

Well, so much for progress, seems to be getting worse as in a (very) short drive today led it all to kick in (multiple warinng lights) and fail almost immediately. Have a tech friend of mine coming but I have concerns this car is much more sophisticated than he is used to.... So will stick to checking the basics as advised on the forum.

Well, there was me thinking I bought a 2013 (a year when many of the XJ problems are sorted) and now I may well have a 2012....

 

Kindly add your location to your profile so anyone helping knows where the vehicle is operated.

Here is the battery in the boot of a North American specification MY2013 X351. Note the extra battery and connection for the battery vent pipe on the side of the battery next to the positive (+) terminal:

 

Vent hose now reconnected...!!! Thank you...

Clearly, it is very important... - thanks again...
https://understandingtools.com/what-...not-connected/

 

If your vehicle is RHD, the earth point is on the offside next to the strut tower, and the positive terminal is under the plastic cover.

Here are photos of a LHD North American specification MY2013 X351 engine compartment showing the location of the electrical connections should the main battery be discharged to allow access to the boot:



This is the earth point next to the RH strut tower.




Cover for electrical junction box indicating positive (+) remote connection within.



Positive (+) remote connection with cover installed.



With cover removed



Under bonnet layout with engine cover removed. Note aluminium water outlet pipes on this vehicle's AJ126 engine.

 

All very impressive and appreciated. Thank you very much, NB Cat.

Your shrewdly installed Aluminium water outlet pipes are excellent and remind me of a funny story. And if you will indluge me I need one after tonight's shenannigans and my putting the Jag on a flat bed (all my fault...) So I had cancer a few years back and it was a long haul and my favourite car was left with a friend in Sth CA . My CL500 1999. By then all the paint & / or clear coat had largely flaked off and it looked..., well it looked like hell. But I had replaced the crappy plastic double TT hose, with Aluminum and also the plastc tappets (I think they are called something else - cam oilers, maybe?) with aluminium also. We put in a new tramsmission from the MB rebuild guy in LA and so the car and I looked like absolute hell, I was still proud of it. So as I got ready to drive it across America I knew I should check the hoses + etc. before departing, and so went to MB Carlsbad if memory serves and asked if they had any techs old enough to have been there in the erly 1990s. Not only did the car look like hell, I did too - radiation and major surgery is less than helpful. So this combo did not go down too well at a fancy MB dealer. To say I had a frosty reception was an understatement. Eventually this late 60's tech comes out and the condescension continued, until... he looked under the hood.

Then...he noticed the TT hose and the tappets (they may be called Cam oilers, but I'm old and my mind is dumb)... and when he saw that, he lit up. He then said this runs very well, let me take it in the back.."; an hour later he came out saying it needed only one hose and was in great shape mechancially, and that I only owed him $150 all in. And so with that, I took off for Arizona and NM only to get pulled over at about 1am by the the local constabulary for doing silly speeds in the desert. But they too were very nice when they heard why I was so happy (just beat cancer...)

So there you have it; your shrewdly installed aluminum pipes made me smile and remember some good times.

THANK YOU...!!!! Now how to shut the wndow and lock the Jag with no power whatsoever... Hmmn.

 

Quietness, a few checks that you can do are these:

1) With the car off, all doors shut (doors locked), open the boot/trunk and using a multimeter, measure from the positive battery post to the negative. DO NOT!!!! touch the steel bands holding the wiring to the battery, only touch the lead posts. What voltage are you seeing? You should be seeing 12.5 VDC or higher (giving a 0.1 VDC for any computers that may be powered up). If you are down around 12.3 or lower, then we have most likely a bad battery or a battery that is not at 100%

2) Next, with the help of a second person, keep the multimeter leads where they are and have the second person start the car. What you should see is the battery go from 12.5ish VDC, down to around 11.0-11.5 VDC (as the motor is cranking), then jump up to around 14.7 VDC as the motor starts running. It will then maintain 14.7 VDC (may slowly ramp down, depends on how the ECU is feeling) for a few moments, but will finally settle at 13.7 VDC. Did the car do this? If no, what did you see. Be as descriptive as possible.

3) With the car running, move the red lead over to the farthest ground stud coming off the body that you can reach that is associated with the negative battery cable. Have the second person turn on both seat heaters on high, the dash fan on high, the headlights, and the rear defroster. This should put about a 85 amp load on the alternator. Is the multimeter reading less than 1.0 VDC? Ideally you want it less than 0.5 VDC. If no, then you need to remove the negative battery cable and clean the posts. A wire brush will do wonders for you. All pieces of metal should be able to be cleaned to a shiny finish except for the battery terminal. Disconnecting the battery lead will force you to reset the e-brake (just need to disengage it, then re-engage the e-brake) and then reset the windows (with the car running, lift up on a window button - one at a time- and let the window go all the way closed if not already there and then keep holding it for another 2-4 seconds (you should hear a faint click), release the button, then push the button down on the window and let the window go all the way down, keep holding the switch for another 2-4 second until you hear the faint click again. At this point, you should be able to momentarily lift on the window switch and the window will go all the way up. Repeat for the other 3 windows. You may need to do this with the shades too. This is nothing more than holding the OPEN button for the front shade for about 45 seconds in the open position. All the shades are going to move (may even make a few snaps and crackling sounds), but at the end, they will be both closed and have learned their limits of travel.

4) Final check. With the load on the car from step 3 above, move the red lead back to the lead of the positive post. Are you still seeing 13.7 VDC? If no, then we have a problem with either the positive battery wire or the alternator circuit. This is where you will need to measure the voltage coming out of the alternator directly and see if you have a high voltage (13.7 VDC or higher) to determine if the alternator is toast (would have a low voltage output of say 12.9 VDC or lower) or if it is high (say up around 14.3 or more after it has reached a steady state), that would indicate your battery positive wire has a problem and needs cleaned/replaced. If we are going down this road, let me know as there will be a few other places that we will want to clean to ensure we get all the possible points back to 100%.

 

Your car has the brackets for the second battery?
Maybe not installed or maybe it has been removed?





Yes that cover is missing 3 fasteners.





These are real common and cheap!
Jaguar #XR812941010.
Here are 10 of them for under $7!
Jaguar Clip

Glad you hooked up the battery vent too. Always a good idea.
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OK, thanks Chris, Clubairth and NB Cat for those excellent and very informative posts - thank you... So, a little more information: -

1) I did check on the Asia supplier of my XJL and all 2013's (even one's (they claim) are manufactured in 2013) do not have the 2nd battery. But by 2014 they do. Ugh... Also Clubairth the other 2013 we looked at late last night does have those same brackets for the 2nd battery you shrewdly pointed out. So it appears Jaguar had the MY 2013's ready to go wth the 2nd battery but did not install it until 2014 for Asian cars.

2) Yesterday my local tech - and as you will see that may be a generous description - checked the battery with the engine OFF using a volt meter and it came in at about 10 volts (reading "WEAK" in the yellow). He did what I only now understand is called a "load test" with his volt meter. He used one of these: -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP5r6NB0ypo
My frustation is I was very wary to even let him do that... He swore it merely checked the battery, but did not put any load on the battery. So as I now know that was untrue, I am less than pleased. And, immediately after he did that the trunk would not even close with its push button (which it always did fine before) and while the car would still start, after 20 - 30 seconds of idle the dash lights went out and it cut out (it was never that bad before, otherwisei I would not have driven it), and by now the electric windows would not go up. (which it always did fine before). So, I assumed he had caused this difference, he said "nope, not possible". Of course I now know putting a load like that on an already weak battery or weak battery system, would have weakened it further. Correct? (could doing so have damaged the BMS? or, worse any of the car's computer modules?)
https://www.reddit.com/r/batteries/c...y_or_too_many/
https://autoedu.info/en/auto-electri...ery-load-test/ (see last paragraph in particular)

3) I then adjourned to the bar for another soda, and took the key with me to ensure the car would have a chance to rest all its electrical systems - i.e. key far enough away etc. After an hour or two I came back - it started and I tried to drive the 1/2 mile home (as before it always drove fine for a few miles, before the Charging System red indicator came on), but by about half way that Charge System light came on AND many systems started to fail immediately and the car came to a stop in the road. We had to flat bed it home which took about 3 hours as great care was taken not to damage it further by way of the flat bed. Learning how to put it in neutral for example took about an hour... Then there was the tow hook piece in the trunk, which seemed to be mssing its extension piece. So that took forever as I insisted it not be towed with its wheels on the ground.

4) Once the car was safely back at my house, all systems remained dead. I could not even lock or unlock doors. I left it alone for 3 hours or so (and took key with me) and at 4am went back to it, to see if it might have enough current to lock the doors or put up the driver's window. But alas, no.

So there you have it a giant cluster, all because I used it to go 1/2 a mile when I should not have been tempted to do so, and also perhaps because the idiot local tech did not realize (or admit) he was putting a load on the battery when he checked it.

One good thing is I learned from the local hotel owner that a Jag tech from USA flies in later this week, but I will also be calling my contacts in USA, 2 or 3 of whcm have flown in to assist owners before, as I am in a very remote place. My 2 concerns are: - 1) could the load test he did on the battery with the volt meter, have damaged the cars electrical system in any way? Many people say no, but I found a few links that indicate it may well and that some battery manufactureres say never load test their batteries..., and 2) could my driving it home and it's remaining current and battery, completely failing have damaged anything?

To top off an already great night I tried to get the blade key out of the (ten year old) key fob to lock the doors, and the key fob gradually fell apart into about a dozen tiny plastic pieces. At least the car is now safely stored and back under its cover. Car and key are now f'd, and I may have a 2012 and not a 2013. Joy...

Hope you all had a better Saturday night. With luck its just a battery, with bad luck Lord knows how much damage this all did...???

 

Small tech update: -

The battery I have in there (from the former owner), is this: -

Quote: -

"MF60038

Passenger car battery is designed to provide satisfactory power and battery life for a wide range of vehicles. Enjoy a line of various products with MF EFB and AGM battery technologies.

Capacity 20HR (AH) 100
CCA (EN) 850"

https://www.hankook-atlasbx.com/en/p...ger-car-smf.do

Presumably not the strongest then, even when new?

 

I quess he did not measured the voltage when engine running? Your engine (alternator) should charge the battery, exept if the battery are dead and do not receive power.
Major thing now are to get your vehicle powered again. You can add power for opening the boot by fuse-box in engine bay: BUT NOT TURN IGNITION ON!!! Something will burn if done so.
So remember: If power added from engine bay, its just to open boot, nothing more. No ignition, radio etc, just boot to have acess to the battery.
Use blade key to enter car, open hood, attach power from other battery, vehicle or 12Volt battery charger, press open boot button. Once boot opens remore the power source from fuse box.
You can try an 12Volt vehicle lead battery charger (connected to the mains) Widely available parts shop or almost any supermarket having some kind of vehicle section. Normally these chargers give out 4-10Ah, so your 100A battery will take 10...+24hour to full. (Short description for terms: Voltage are "level" of the power, Amps are how "much")
Next steps:
- If your battery do not charge, you need new battery.
- If your battery charge Ok and you can start your XJ again, your alternator propably are broken, because its not charging your battery when engine running. You just used all the juise left in the battery by driving it.
On full battery you had 100Ah. Suspension take 6A. Engine mangagment, fuel pump, ABS brake system about 10-15A. Infoteinment, interior fans, etc about 5-10A. Lights about 5-8A... The vehicle needs about 30-40A to move, (what are normally taken from alternator, by side of battery charging) so with full battery you can run about 2hour, maybe less, since systems start to shut down when voltage drops about 9..10Volts no matter what.

 

Quietness, from personal experience, I would tell you to remove that battery you have (regardless of how new it is) and get rid of it. I recently bought a 2016 XJL and it had a standard battery in it (a non-AGM). That car started fine, but the first time I did something to drop the battery less than 100%, all hell broke loose. I sat with the car off, but the radio going for like 10 minutes. The car could not start itself. I ended up jumping the car and drove it for awhile to get things back to 100%. It got me home, but about an hour after getting home, went to start the car and it didn't have enough juice to roll the engine. That was when I found that the battery was not the correct style. I bought an AGM battery, had it installed and all has been fine since. The AGM batteries are designed for a bit more current pull and do a better job of noise filtering.

As for a load test causing damage to a battery, I see it this way. A load test puts a quick load on the battery and sees how far the voltage drops. A battery will tend to drop about 0.1 VDC for every 10 amps pulled. When you have a cell going bad (for example), when you do this load test, you may see a 0.2 or 0.3 VDC drop for every 10 amp draw. This is where we have found that with the XJ's, you want to keep a battery that has over 75% capacity (this is determined during the load test as the voltage at the start of the test with no load and then the voltage it drops to can be used to determine capacity). Having a battery under 75% or with insufficient ability to filter out noise will raise hell with a computerized car.

PUt in a new battery and then do my checks. Before putting in the battery, put it on a charger to make sure it is at 100%. Even a "new" battery from a local parts store has an undetermined charge on it and may be at 100%, may be at 50%. You never know.

 

I agree just put in a new and correct battery. All symptoms are pointing to that.
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Many thanks for that, that's the plan - and also need to learn how to accurately measure if the Alternator is working well.

I have heard the car requires an AGM Battery, but also read somewhere that does not apply if it does not have the 2nd battery. So I'm not sure about that one....

Are there any brands that are much better for the Jag's seemingly high electrical demands? I don't mind paying a bit more if it means less / no more headaches... Thanks...

 

Quietness, as for the brand of battery to buy, keep in mind that most batteries come off of but a few assembly lines. All that normally differs between a $100 and a $300 battery is a sticker and whatever warrantee that a company wants to put on them. Here in the US, you have 2 companies that assemble batteries for say 95% of what is offered. They are Johnson Controls and Exide. Yet, there are 100's of "companies" selling a battery. Look at the cases, they will almost all be identical, just a different sticker. Hint, they came off of the same line. I have a post here where I reference what batteries are made by each company. So, whether you get one that lasts 6 months or 10 years is all a matter of your stroke of luck and whether you have been abusive to the battery (more with luck).

As for testing the alternator, I talk about it in my previous post. Measure across the battery with a multimeter. With the car off, it should read 12.5-12.6 VDC. As you start the car, it will drop but immediately jump up to around 14.7 VDC. Things are going to hover there for a bit (depends on how "discharged" the car sees the battery at). Once the car thinks it has restore most of what it takes to get the battery back to 100%, it will lower the voltage down to 13.7VDC and hold it there. You do not see this, you either have a bad alternator or a bad ECU.

 

Thank you very much.... appreciated.

 

OK, I'm making some progress but in this isolated location, and with extreme heat all year (think Colombia / Venezuala...) there seem to be 1 or 2 unusual variables.

The old battery I had in there was only 850 cca. The recommendations I am receiving is that the cca should be 900. In terms of AGM every one says its better, except sometimes in high heat climates like these it can wear out faster, ironically. I then spoke with Jaguar in Florida and they said the only thing that matters is if your serial number needs an AGM (i.e. is it an AGM car?) then you must get the AGM, as otherwise - and, as all you good folks have said, a non AGM battery will defintely cause problems. So that is what I have to find out... and will EDIT when I do.

Of note, a different local tech here, who I have now found out is in fact Jaguar qualifed (and quite well respected here) puts in simple 850 cca, non AGM batteries, and swears he has no problems on all his Jags and RR;s (although on MY 2012), But in this heat he says no battery lasts longer than a year or 2, and he finds the extreme heat here kills AGM's faster than non AGM's. Florida Jaguar said the heat is less of an issue as the battery is in the trunk, but Florida is cooler than here...

Either way I am definitely going with 900 cca as that is what the specs apparently (even here) say you need, and the other Jag tech I have found who flies in regularly says 900 is the way to go too. And it will be 1,000 cranking amps.

EDITS - Florida Jaguar confirm my car is in fact a 2013 MY (despite only one battery in the trunk) -- build date was September 16th, 2012
Although the online VIN showed it up as a 1983 XJ6 4.2L - go figure; so Jaguar they had to dig deeper.
(impressed with their customer service, much more polite than MB.)

The battery part number from Jaguar USA for my car is - Part # C2D61169
But they still can not find out if it is an AGM car or not, but being 2013 it indicates it could well be...

Now this inicates it is not an AGM battery as ths states it is not start stop - consistent with lack of 2 batteries and hence if my memory serves it is not AGM...? But I am no expert. Florida Jaguar says it all depends on the build date, but Jaguar so far can not tell me if my build date requires AGM or not.
https://www.landleaping.com/oem-part...YtZmxleA%3D%3D