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This technical bulletinJTB00259NAS1 appears to confirm what Florida Jaguar told me:
It comes down to your VIN, if your VIN is after V00047 then it appears you need an AGM. I've tried to attach the bulletin but the pdf will not load for some weird reason... but the bulletn also says words to the effect of you must replace the battery with the same type that it came with. My 2013 car presumably (?) should have come with an AGM, but currently does not have one... well... hmmn; I can only assume the last owner put in a Lead Acid erroneously.
But Ive just read from another forum post, that he "found out from Jaguar that YOU CAN NOT use the newer AGM batteries" on cars without start stop, "as they charge differently and have different electronics."
So now I am sufficiently confused to give up for the day.
The Jaguar Parts Managers' advice, relayed to me 2nd hand, was more specific: - if they are given a choice of batteries (wet or flooded) of what to use in the spec, and if the choices include AGM, then they are told to recommend AGM on the X351. Equally, the FL Jaguar dealer tech told me if the VIN Number says it is an AGM car (which he says comes down to build date) then you must use AGM, or... risk issues.
The only other aspects I am looking into is the AGM's can be sensitive to over charging and there are risks in extreme hot climates, and the core must not rise above 49 C. Local techs tend to say it is so hot here that AGM is risky, but this article says something quite different: - https://www.automoblog.net/5-best-ca...ar%20batteries
Quietness, my MY2012 XJ had an AGM in it for the 7 years that I owned it. that car did not have the start/stop feature. Car ran just fine for the time I had it. Only time I had an issue was when the battery started to die of age (was around 8 years old). So, take that for what it is worth. The newer cars, I would think would be pretty much mandated to have an AGM, regardless of start/stop option.
Yup, thanks - that is the way I am leaning. Unless I get any speciifc information to say the higher heat here will cause known issues. As you say the peace of mind is important, and the Die Hard Platinum AGM comes with a 3 year warranty, and feels best choice, especially as I now know my car is a 2013. Otherwise it woudl be a Die Hard Gold - both are 900 cca, 100 cranking amps.. The local US qualifed Jaguar tech came this evening and gave enough power to the XJ to get the windows up etc. He advises itt may also be the alternator brushes were damaged by the salt air as the car was left on the dock unfortuantely for several weeks once the ship finally arrived (and the sea air being on the ship for 4 months may not have helped the bushes), as I was away at the time and could not get back. We will see thanks for all your posts - what a knowledgable forum - it was a long day, but it seems I have a decent plan and now a local tech who is qualified to, and has worked on these cars before and 2 others, one of whom flies back on Friday who know even more.
Thank you, much appreciated. So should be able to install the AGM battery today. (is there any advantage going with an H9 instead of an H8?) Tech says it needs a new alternator but I remain concerned that even if it does, what was the real issue that caused that...?? - as my car only has 35,000 miles on it and was dealer serviced for its frst 5 years. When I raised this question, pointing out these alternators normallly last +/- 100,000 miles, he suggested either salt air on the brushes or vacuum pump seal leaked mist of oil on to the alternator. He is due to take a look at that seal today once the battery goes in. I mentioned to him it could also be the alternator cables have high internal resistance (per a post on here) or, that the high output wire may have been burned (also as per an old post on here), but he said then the car would not have started when he jumped it, or respectively, I would still need a new alternator. I am reluctant to proceed without checking what really caused this (if it is needed) as having rebuilt / restored one or two W140 MB's I learned the hard way when a tech is immediately just replacing parts without finding out why, it can be a fool's way of parting with yet more money for the same parts again in short order...
EDIT - I am very interested in finding out if the X351 has the same "crappy" cables to the alternator (with "high internal resistance" problems) that the X type does. This may be particulary relevant here due to extreme temperatures, as the poster on this forum kindly pointed out that "the cables got hot under the hood" - and to quote : - "cables get hot under hood and voltage goes down and people replace the alt only to have the same issue again. you can monitor the batt charge voltage while driving through the message center".
Very grateful to that poster and any more information on the cables, but perhaps due to heat, may only occur in South Florida or AZ etc.... and even then I expect most owners garage these cars. Mine was left outside in August for 5 weeks in temps that quite badly melted my dash leather...
The car uses an H8 battery? Why are you installing an H9 battery?
Have you read your owners manual? I would use the battery Jaguar specifies for your car.
Forget about cables they are not your problem.
Can you post a picture of the melted dash leather? We don't get any reports of this but as you know the XF has quite a bit of trouble with dash leather and the sun.
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The car uses an H8 battery? Why are you installing an H9 battery?
Have you read your owners manual? I would use the battery Jaguar specifies for your car.
Forget about cables they are not your problem.
Can you post a picture of the melted dash leather? We don't get any reports of this but as you know the XF has quite a bit of trouble with dash leather and the sun.
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Thanks, Clubairth - I didn't say I was going to use an H9, but was simply inquiring if there would be any merit in doing so. There was no owners manual with the car.. I will get you some dash pictures in a while - basically it was the front left above the dash wood trim where the leather meets the windshield. (just not my current priority). You may be right about the cables, but I'm still going to try to check the alternator cables etc.. For as of yet I have no decent explanation why an OE alternator (that normally last 100,000 mies) would fail at 35,000 miles.
Quietness, H8/H9 batteries in the XJ, either work. I think your bigger thing would be getting the H9 tied down inside the trunk as the H9 is bigger.
Now, the question of why would you want to use an H9 over an H8? The answer is simple, the H9 gives you more of everything. You can listen to the radio longer and still be able to start the car. As the battery ages, the battery is going to be able to start the car longer. The filtering ability of the battery is better as there is more battery to absorb more voltage changes. The only one that is really "a benefit" to the XJ is the filtering capability. But, the difference is minimal really. So, you are spending more money on something that you are trying to find out how long it is going to last in the heat. This is where I would tell you to spend the extra money if you have it on a battery with say a 3 year replacement warrantee. That way, the battery dies after a year like the tech says, you are going to get 3 batteries for the price of 1. If it last for 5 years. You had a good piece of mind during that time. Batteries are one of those items that I will advocate for spending a little more in a lot of cases to get a better warrantee as I have found that a battery can be a very tempermental thing in newer cars.
Quietness, H8/H9 batteries in the XJ, either work. I think your bigger thing would be getting the H9 tied down inside the trunk as the H9 is bigger.
Now, the question of why would you want to use an H9 over an H8? The answer is simple, the H9 gives you more of everything. You can listen to the radio longer and still be able to start the car. As the battery ages, the battery is going to be able to start the car longer. The filtering ability of the battery is better as there is more battery to absorb more voltage changes. The only one that is really "a benefit" to the XJ is the filtering capability. But, the difference is minimal really. So, you are spending more money on something that you are trying to find out how long it is going to last in the heat. This is where I would tell you to spend the extra money if you have it on a battery with say a 3 year replacement warrantee. That way, the battery dies after a year like the tech says, you are going to get 3 batteries for the price of 1. If it last for 5 years. You had a good piece of mind during that time. Batteries are one of those items that I will advocate for spending a little more in a lot of cases to get a better warrantee as I have found that a battery can be a very tempermental thing in newer cars.
Many thanks, Chris. That is what I was thinking, so I agree entirely. I will bounce it of the the tech at Florida Jaguar first and also see if they even have an H9 in stock. One concern I might have is can the stock alternator (even if functioning correctly) charge an H9 enough? But given AGM's can be sensitive to overcharging, an H9 may have an inadvertent additional protection benefit. Certainly the Reserve Capacity is up from 160 to 190 and the cca is up from 900 to 950. But I dont even know if they have one and it may be prohibitively expensive in my location. Even the H8 here is $435... This is the H9 they would have: - another Die Hard, which I hear is a pretty good brand: - https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/...agm/10866724-P
On another note thank you to you and all posters who suggested I must check the voltage on the battery before I buy it. The Manager of the battery store was (mercifully) a modest ego type and understood.my well intentioned reasons. It came out at 12.4 V and so he agreed to charge it overnight as I now understand how important this is otherwise the BMS will (?) assume 12.4V is the max charge on the new barttery and limit things to that... It also gives me an opportunity to float the H9 discussion with the manager, and check with my colleague in Florida at Jaguar if for any reason that might be a no no. He did also confirm a 3 year warranty no questions asked, as opposed to what some here do, i.e. you only find out later that it is a partial rebate.
Two other potentially pieces of good news after 4 days of 'miserable', one of which was only made possible by this forum - thank you. I met another tech tonight who is currently working on an X351 here, and when I mentioned alternator he said have you checked the cable for high internal resistace. (you could have knocked me down with a feather) So he will do the additional alternator checks you and others kindly suggest Chris, and we will see... He said he has seen folks replace the alternator on Jags (ultimately for almost no good reason) only to find they need to do it again. So if he is not shining me on, he could be a very good find. The other piece of positive news for me personally was, I got my old MB Wagon started, it had a key issue, and so I am now less stressed about all of this. As good as the Jag is the old Mercedes Wagons are hard to beat for simple, non (or little) computerized safe transportation. And the seat leather at nearly 25 years old looks almost brand new; remarkable... that was back when Mercedes were Mercedes. (the W222 for example, which I was tempted by just feels more cheaply made in comparison to the much older MB's, like W140 and W210).
Many thanks to all posters on the forum, it is invaluable - I am learning a lot. Thank you.
This is the picture of the battery in my trunk just before they shipped me the car and this is my car battery once it arrived. Spot the difference.... I asked the seller to do a pre purchase inspection for road worthiness which I paid extra (200) for and they took ages to do it - like 30 days...
Who else smells a rat? For, what seller would change the battery (at their expense) just before shipping the car without telling the buyer...?
This is one of the pictures the seller showed me just before I bought my car, and just before shipping my car. Note the colour scheme and branding on the battery...
And this is the battery that arrived with my car just 3 or 4 months later, which I shared with the forum in the above posts. (I did think the battery looked brand pretty well new, and hence odd potentially to have flaked out...)
And here is a close up of that older battery that was in my car just before it shpped in late May 2023....
I dont know about any of you but this confirms almost all my suspicions that there is something else going on here. 1) the seller took ages to do the road worthiness pre inspection test, 2) the seller did not disclose the need to put in a new battery 3) If I had not found this out, I would immediately be doing what I know is often / always a no no replacing the same parts within months (in this case just 4 or 5 months or so, the majority of which the car was sitting on a transport ship !)
So what would be the real cause to make a brand new battery die within months? And the car drove fine with me when it got here for about 300 + miles.... Surely a dead alternator would not have or allow a battery to last for 300 - 400 miles of driving... It only started showing electrical signs after my last 3 week trip away...
QUietness, there are actually a lot of parts to a modern day battery. They all need to be put in there just so and you get one thing out of place, all hell can break loose. When you discharge a battery, the positive and negative plates either shrink or grow (based on the chemical reaction that is going on). You discharge a battery too far, you can permanently damage a plate and it will not return to the size it should be. This starts pushing on the internal parts and if things get bad enough, a positive and negative plate can touch and this takes out a part of the battery and at that point, the complete battery is trash (this is what tends to happen when a battery suddenly just doesn't want to power anything in the car). You then have a second thing called "mossing". THink of moss on a tree and how it is this pillowy substance. With the charging and discharging of a battery and the adding and removing of the lead to the plates, the plates can start to exhibit a surface that looks like moss. The plate expands in a limited area and if it can grow far enough, it can touch the next plate which will short out a cell and boom, dead battery. The mossing is what kills most batteries. Due to the design of the AGM battery, mossing is minimized and therefore is a good reason as to why to get one.
You want to learn more, let me know. The "old battery" I used to play with could power a decent size town. But, it was needed to power a nuclear reactor in the middle of the ocean when all hell broke loose and you lost your main sources of power.
The alternator on my 2012 x351 went out at 59,152 miles., according to the Jaguar dealer it failed because it was oil soaked from a leaking timing cover. Since the alternator was no longer charging the battery it went dead as well. A battery part number JAC2D55038 was installed .
Total for diagnosis, new alternator, new battery, reseal timing cover= $3447.88 ah,yes, the life of a non-do it yourselfer, its ok, I love the car
The alternator on my 2012 x351 went out at 59,152 miles., according to the Jaguar dealer it failed because it was oil soaked from a leaking timing cover. Since the alternator was no longer charging the battery it went dead as well. A battery part number JAC2D55038 was installed .
Total for diagnosis, new alternator, new battery, reseal timing cover= $3447.88 ah,yes, the life of a non-do it yourselfer, its ok, I love the car
gpk
That indeed may be the cause here, we will see. One of the techs here did suggest leaking oil mist on the alternator, but has not arrved to check that yet. So thank you for your post. One thought though, if I had a failing alternator would the car have driven close to 400 - 500 miles before the next battery went dead? I would have thought with a bad alternator the new battery might only have lasted 20 or 30 miles at best? Thanks again !
And thanks again Thermo another informative and much appreciated post also.
Quietness, you are assuming that the alternator was failed when it was put on the ship. It could have failed after getting off the ship. So, you could have gotten 400ish miles before all hell broke loose. The battery by itself is only going to power the car for about 30 minutes or so. Lots of variables like how much A/C was being used, slow driving or highway, etc. The more you are pulling, the quicker the battery will go in almost an exponential rate.
Granted, if they are saying that it is the alternator, you may want to find a DC engineering shop that can find the parts and rebuild the alternator for you. Odds are, all you would need is the commutator cleaned, new brushes, and then a new rectifier. That should be a lot cheaper than geting a whole new alternator. The questions whether they know where to get the needed parts.
One of the techs here did suggest leaking oil mist on the alternator, but has not arrved to check that yet.
What would create a mist of oil in that area? I have had the vacuum pump leak, but that's just an oil drip. There's nothing about a vacuum pump that should vaporize oil into a deadly mist.
What would create a mist of oil in that area? I have had the vacuum pump leak, but that's just an oil drip. There's nothing about a vacuum pump that should vaporize oil into a deadly mist.
Excellent, thanks. I thought that tech was making that up (or wrong) anyway...
Quietness, you are assuming that the alternator was failed when it was put on the ship. It could have failed after getting off the ship. So, you could have gotten 400ish miles before all hell broke loose. The battery by itself is only going to power the car for about 30 minutes or so. Lots of variables like how much A/C was being used, slow driving or highway, etc. The more you are pulling, the quicker the battery will go in almost an exponential rate.
Granted, if they are saying that it is the alternator, you may want to find a DC engineering shop that can find the parts and rebuild the alternator for you. Odds are, all you would need is the commutator cleaned, new brushes, and then a new rectifier. That should be a lot cheaper than geting a whole new alternator. The questions whether they know where to get the needed parts.
Good point !! I'm actually assuming there is nothing wrong with the alternator until we complete yours and others forum members kindly recommended tests. Right now my cat is still under its protective cover awaiting the new battery which should have gone in today but the shop did not call back with the updated voltage from being charged as thanks tp you and other posters like Stuart S, who have wisely pointed out that batteries at the shop are often nowhere near 100%....
The much beter tech I met today did agree its highly unlikely the alternator as I drove it for so long but we are guessing until he does all the tests... more to come. Now I have a single malt in my future... Oh and as for rebuilding it I do very much agree, but to try that here - LMAO....!! :-)
QUietness, you may want to consider a bottle of good scotch (or their favorite beverage) for your new friend if he figures out the problem. You may a friend that way, you will find that they will be willing to do more work in the future. Amazing what a little bit of kindness can do.
QUietness, you may want to consider a bottle of good scotch (or their favorite beverage) for your new friend if he figures out the problem. You may a friend that way, you will find that they will be willing to do more work in the future. Amazing what a little bit of kindness can do.
Thanks, Thermo - great minds think alike. I have already put him onto something he values a lot as he had cancer:- Life Extension. It is a great international company, based in Florida, and they have a free magazine every month, all available on line. As a Stage 4 cancer survior I have personal reasons to recommend them, especially as I turned down the chemo... and won.
As for the latest on the car, my old Benz Wagon is running me around... The local battery store for the Jag is, ahem, "still" checking the H8 AGM voltage after I asked them to charge it (so that does not bode well), but a new H9 arrives Tuesday (in a wrapped pallet no less, so no one can readily drop it, more important here than you could imagine). So I am leaning strongy towards the H9 if i can fit it in and if Jaguar Flt Lauderdale tech does not tell me, it's a no no... As you rightly say Thermo, if Jaguar says there should be no harm from it, we will then all learn if the H9 does amazingly well... (it's the same price here as the H8 anyway and a good brand too Die Hard)...
I will also install the 15% Xpel Ceramic tint on the Jag, that I bought stateside before leaving it with the tech, as I know from painful experience what can happen otherwise when you leave a car at a tech and he promises it will be inside. Yeah, right... If anyone is interested I actually went to the high end tint place to meet them all and check out the reports that Xpel Prime XR Plus is as good as the higher end brand installers tend to swear by now e.g. for Ferrari, MB, Jag, Rolls etc.. When I was there he had a white Ferrari 488 with 15% tint, and it looked perfect. Not as dark as 5%, but still great privacy and superb heat reduction. They also gave me two 5% pieces for the sunroof as a bonus. All for under $250. If anyone wants details PM me and I will give you the owner's number - he can ship you pre cut pieces in a secure hard packaged roll. https://www.xpel.com/products/window...ve-window-tint
Hmmn, bit of an update. I just spoke with the parts department in the Jaguar dealership in Florida and they advise they have had the H9 vs H8 discussion before and they feel it (the H9) caused electrical problems. I of course do not know if that is 100% accurate as that was just parts, and so will double check with a couple of Jaguar techs I konw today before making a final decision, but that is what Jaguar Parts advised. Just spoke with them again, as they were double checking something, and I don't know which model year it was, but the owner had put an H9 in and they had problems and the Jag techs there felt it was caused by the H9 and swapped it out for an H8. Interesting. Parts also checked with their Manager and another tech, and they confirmed that if your Jag's serial / VIN number offers a choice of batteries (AGM vs lead Acid) then Jaguar do definitely recommend your going with the AGM. Then does tend to contradict the (old) Techical bulletin quote above from 2011 or so (i.e swap same for same), but there you have it, just passing on what that dealership has now told me twice... and which is consistent with almost all members' advice on this forum.
EDIT: -
BUT 4 (four) Jaguar techs I have now spoken to, (including one from a FL dealership) all say the H9 would NOT cause such problems and that what happened (above) may / might have been a misdiagnosis on the H9 being the culprit. They advise especially with the battery being such a small change in power, and that iften a new battery masks finding the underlying fault - like an undiagnosed power drain... So, I am no expert, but do find it interesting to receive such conflicting information... !
If any of you good experts can please weigh in, I have 2 last questions: -
1) - will the H9 fit in ok? it is 4 cm longer. (I can't open my trunk, without paying a tech to come out), and
2) - can you think of a reason why the H9 might cause electrical problems in the X351 system?
10-10-2023, 05:07 PM
