When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Yesterday, my 1997 Daimler Double-Six broke down on the motorway.
The oil gauge suddenly went from normal ("N") to zero and the red check oil lamp came on. The engine started to shake like a washing machine too, so I immediately pulled over and stopped.
The dip stick was showing a sufficient amount of oil, so possibly it's an oil pump problem? (is the rescue driver's short assessment).
The car is now sadly in the rescue garage :-(
Any experience in this and what the problem could be? Hopefully it won't be an eye-watering repair bill!
Yes, the X305 Tech Section, one up from here is the V12 cars, and members. The XJS Tech Section is also V12 cars.
The V12 oil pump is a "monster" and driven directly on the front of the engine, under the timing cover, so NO chains etc to fail. It supplies oil in HUGE volumes and pressure. Very similar design to an Auto Trans Oil Pump.
The drive sprocket was an issue on the very early 5.3 engines, but I have never seen a pump failure. I suppose there is a first time for everything as age creeps up.
To have happen as you describe, smells of oil pump failure, if there are NO external oil leaks, which you dont appear to have. A foreign item got into the pump and jammed it, but what? and from where?, I cannot picture.
Blocked oil filter, that would cause a drop in pressure a steh by-pass valve opens and dumps the oil from the pump back to teh sump, but certainly NOT zero, and oil light on.
Sadly, engine out, and slowly, systematically dismantling the front section, to access the pump and associated pipes etc is the only way forward.
A not-so-happy weekend for your DD6. Grant: "Bugga!"
There could be some major eye-watering to come. Unless...
Are you sure you didn't leave your oil behind on the motorway? These cars are known (nowadays) to do that, as mine did about 3 years ago.
A small leak in the oil cooler hose, with that huge pressure and volume behind it will empty out the oil in a hurry! Those original hoses are quite old now and weakening under this load.
In my case, the oil went ALL OVER the engine, causing an embarrassing smoke trail. But I bet if the hole was in the right spot it could sneak out somewhat unnoticed. UNTIL...
Next step: drain the oil from the crankcase. If you don't (EDIT: DO) get at least 9 quarts... you may get watery eyes.
Last edited by SleekJag12; 07-27-2020 at 01:49 AM.
Reason: Corrected logic
The car is going in for 'surgery' on 3rd August...then a visit to the bank manager on the 4th maybe!
As far as I saw, there was no oil trail left behind on the motorway and when the bonnet was lifted the engine was totally clean.
We were on a long-ish roadtrip that day and the car was on around it's 3rd hour of motorway driving when it happened (with a petrol refill in between). Maybe the old parts couldn't handle that much continuous "strain". No idea...
Edit: When you drain the oil and DO get 9 quarts, see the bank manager for a new oil pump! This looks like the case if you are sure oil shows on the dipstick. If there is no oil left, you had a covert hose or gasket leak and the engine might still be fine.
Either way... replace the rubber sections of the oil cooler hoses! INSIST on high-temp, high pressure reinforced hose.
V12s love the motorway. As long as they are oiled and cooled!
Best of luck going forward.
Grant, I appreciate your approach. What a Gentleman! I do love that word though.
Looking at all the scenario's, and like you say, NO oil = something sad, and maybe engine damage to boot.
Oil in the sump, as in 9qts = oil pump failure, RARE, and sadly usually terminal.
Our 1976 S2 V12 has clocked 652000kms, and untouched, so they are STRONG, and I really cannot work out what has killed this Daimler?????
Time will tell, and a NEW bottle of Jameson awaits the results.
It is just possible that an oil pickup/feed hose to the pump, or from the pump to the oil galleries has fractured or failed somehow. Either way a sod. Once the engine is out I would start by removing the sump and sandwich plate and look for anything obvious. If the pump has failed for some reason, new oil pumps are NLA, but Rob Beere sells uprated ones if you cannot find one elsewhere.
The key thing is to inspect the big end bearings, if they are OK, or only lightly scored the mains and everything else should be OK, and you can just renew the big end shells. If the crank is scored, that is a bigger problem, but second hand ones are around.
Lovely car, so i applaud your "get it done" attitude. A true V12 guy! Good luck.
To keep you posted on this case, the garage checking the DD6 advised the following:
QuoteYesterday and this morning we checked your Daimler. It was already quite an effort to locate the problem. We removed the oil pan to have a look at the oil pump snorkel, which was not jammed. We also removed the pressure relief valve, checked it and it was fine as well.
We have come to the conclusion that it must be the oil pump. But here starts the problem. The pump is located behind the front cover of the timing chain. To remove the pump from there we would need to remove the front axle, bonnet, radiator and disassemble the engine front end. My brother estimates the cost of the repair wold be approximately CHF 6'500-7'000 [I'm in Switzerland FYI]
I know it is a lot but the workload is enormous. In the end the question remains why the oil pump broke. We spoke to another Jaguar specialist who fixes these cars for over 30 years and he said he never saw a borken oil pump on a 6.0 litre.
Unquote
What are your thoughts?
Jameson is open and I am sipping via a straw, as I think.
If it were mine, I would remove the engine and trans as a unit, and split the 2 on the floor. Then the engine can be mounted on a suitably strong engine stand and rotated for ease of access.
Remove the upper sump (AKA the sandwich plate). Inspect the bearings, as Greg suggested.
If they appear OK, move on to the front, and timing cover off, chain, and then access to the oil pump, always looking for WHAT CAUSED THIS.
If the bearings and crank journals are damaged, then another engine is the way, and doing the front at a later time to find out WHY, would be an option.
I have spoken to some old work mates, and they have never seen an oil pump failure on a V12 of any vintage. There was a TSB (Technical Service Bulletin) waaay back in the '70's for the oil pump drive adapter, the thing that slides over the crankshaft snout and drives the oil pump, being faulty, but they never saw one. They had no further suggestions related to the engine, they just suggested LOTS of alcohol to numb the pain, really helpful guys they be.
Grant 100% correct. The engine MUST be pulled and it will save a huge amount of time over the whole job. I have pulled a V12 out of my XJS, and the very first time i did it took only 4 hours - and that included proving that an undetached fuel line is strong enough to lift a V12! It seems very daunting, but is actually pretty straightforward.
Once out all is FAR quicker and far easier.
Alternatively, just snap this little belter up! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jaguar-6-...YAAOSwv4Fcnp5w
I might be missing something here, but I’ve had my power steering pump, water pump, harmonic balancer, and air pump all off at the same time. All of which was no big deal and a lot easier done than in my XJ8. This was all done with the radiator, bonnet, and of course lower subframe in place. I almost popped off the timing cover for inspection at that point as it looked easy to do. Why would you remove the engine? Seems like a lot of work when it isn’t really necessary?
Many reasons, the obvious is that Sandwich plate, and that is a no go with the cradle in the way. OK, some will have done this an ddone that, and got it out, then getting it back without destroying the gasket would be "fun".
Likewise, I have done the items you mentiond, many times.
I did a timing chain tensioner on an XJS 5.3 ONCE insitu, and never again. The time it took, we could have had the engine out, job done, + other things, in less time. Also, the top of the engine, as in Inlets, camcovers, need to come off, to get the chain off, so the pump is accessible. Once again, do-able insitu, but when you are paying per the hour, a very different thought process for me.
Thanks for explaining that. So the sandwich plate is the upper oil pan right? That has to come off to get the timing cover off? Or are you saying this just needs to come off for further inspection?
Sorry for the dumb question, I’ve only had the timing cover off my XJ8 and no sandwich plate there
My 1st V12, before Forums, Computers or anything, and MILES from civilisation, OH BOY, was that a learning curve.
That upper sump plate as it is correctly called, is in the way for anny bearing inspection, etc. The timing cover can come OFF with it there, but replacing that cover will require it to removed, or at least lowered at the front by "cheating" with loosening bolts along the sides until it drops enough, but its never enough, as the cradle is sooooo close to that plate.
The oil pump is behind the chain, chain guides, damper plates, etc. Then there is the Jaguar Special tool for resetting all those chain plates, an art in itself. Doable without it, but time consuming, and a fair amount of guess work.
Good fun, and LOTS of beer consumed when working on a V12.
To add to Grant's points, the oil pipes to and from the pump, where they are bolted to the pump, cannot be accessed without the sandwich plate being removed. The O rings sealing these pipe joints cannot be renewed - which is a must while in there. As this engine has had some sort of oil starvation, the big and and main bearings cannot be inspected with the sandwich plate in place, let alone replaced. Also the sump windage and anti-foaming shield cannot be removed, which is a prerequisite to inspect the crank bearings.
07-25-2020, 06:11 AM
1997 Daimler Double-Six Breakdown Oil Warning Engine Rattle
