2004 XJ8 starts fine when cold. Had check engine lite (solid) for months. Got a code reader and the codes are consistant: P0300, P0303, P0305, P1316, P0128 and P1111. Car was still running with the codes until recently. Now occasionally it will stall at idle when slowing for a light or when putting it into gear after a warm start. When it stalls out like this it then will not start up again. It cranks and tries to start but won't idle and turns right off. If I let it sit overnight it will start and run until the next stall. Have replaced the MAF battery and air filter. You can hear the fuel pump run for a couple of seconds when you turn the key. Tried swapping coils and plugs for cylinders 3 and 5 with no change in missfires on 3 and 5. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Update: Bought a fuel pressure guage and checked pressure at the Shrader valve. When running and when in the no start fault mode the pressure is steady around 50 PSI. So issue doesn't seem to be the fuel pump. Also, occasionally I have seen a display error indicating "parking brake fault." This error was happening before the car started stalling and not restarting until cold. Yesterday I was able to run in the driveway for about 20 minutes and was able to get it to stall once after revingto 3K RPM. It restarted right after the stall unlike the last time I tried this. Also, the P0128 started happening after I had a coolant leak in the radiator and used Barr's Liquid Aluminum to seal it. It took two applications and the leak sealed but it's possible that it may be keeping the thermostat from closing all the way causing the P0128 and slow engine warm up. When warmed up it's dead center on temp guage.

 

You've had a 'check engine' light for months and ignored it?

I'd look for two possibilities.

First, fouled injectors. Over time the injectors ill become so loaded with crap residue from gasoline (specially those with high sulfur content) that the computers simply can make up for the sever lean condition that will occur initially at idle and get progressively worse.

Second area for investigation would be a possible vacuum leak that again is beyond the computers ability to compensate for. Check the various vacuum hoses for leaks from splits, cracks, and whatever else a deteriorating hose might take a mind to do. It would take much of a vacuum leak to cause a slow or low speed idle stall.

There may be a further response from someone more familiar with the various fault codes peculiar to Jags, so wait for them as well for other suggestions as mine are only opinions even if based on experience.

 

As stated above I didn't ignore the check engine lite. I got a reader and started troubleshooting. Swapped coils and plugs but the two cylinders miss-firing remained the same. Replaced MAF sensor. Bought a fueld pressure guage and tested. Today I drove the car for 5 miles fine, parked then drove another 6 miles, while turning into a store it stalled and I had to cost into a parking spot. Went into the store and it wouldn't start when I came out. Left me stranded again. I've checked vac hoses for obvious cracks and wear but haven't found any. Can two fouled injectors cause this problem? Again, it runs fine until warmed up. Are fuel injectors heat sensitive? Runs fine when at speed but intermittently stalls when slowing down at a stop. Starts up fine after sitting overnight.

 

I've never heard of injectors being heat sensitive under normal operating conditions. Since you seem to have an ongoing problem with the two adjacent cylinders at 3 & 5 that could certainly cause a stalling condition if those two cylinders failed to fire at low speeds, specially with the added load if your A/C is on and cycling. Since you've replaced the coil packs and switched the leads with no change in the cylinders behavior that leaves pretty much the plugs and the individual plug wires.

I don't know if Jaguar uses solid core ignition cables or the more common graphite track. The latter is very prone to breaking down internally and also coming apart internally if yanked off one time too many by a lazy muscle-bound technician and I always replace mine with solid core when the time arrives. I also favor 8mm wires as they carry higher more consistent voltages to the plugs, but that's another story.

I'm assuming that you've pulled the plugs and checked them for color/signs of over heating, discolored cracked or burned ceramics, melted or eroded electrodes, and improperly gapped electrodes. Also check to see that they are the plug type and heat range specified by jaguar for your engine. I've experienced first hand the rather startling and rapid effects exhibited by the incorrect heat range plugs in an engine so there is a reason for certain specifications being met.

Don't assume anything and check everything yourself or be standing there when your tech does it.

Don't ignore the possibility that one or both of those injectors (3&5) are plugged. the 12 holes in their showerhead are just barely able to be called holes and high sulphur content fuel does eventually leave enough residue to plug them and lead to a lean condition that can cause just the problem you're having. Also keep looking for a possible vacuum leak since even a small one has an adverse effect on idle air/fuel mixture that can be more than the computers can compensate for.

Eliminate plugs, plug wires, vacuum leaks, and injector clogging and if you still have the problem take two aspirin and call your tech in the morning.

Seriously though, Get back to us.

PS: I just thought of one other thing. While you have the two offending plugs out stick them back in their respective coils and holding them with the electrode close to a grounded metal part of the car have some one turn the ignition on and turn the motor over with a relatively quick crank. While the coil pack covering should prevent electrical shock I for one have never trusted ignition electrics as they are high voltage and can knock you on your *** so I generally make sure I'm well insulated with some rubber gloves or a thick rubber handled pair of pliers. We're looking for a nice fat spark that can jump a good 1/4 inch or further to at least the electrode if not the grounding metal as well. You know the story if you don't get one. Even a great LOOKING plug can fail for no apparent reason.

It's 2 AM so I quit for the night. It's a good thing I'm retired <G><G>

 

Thanks for the responses RD. After I swapped the coils I also swapped the plugs. Plug 3 was swapped with 1 and 5 was swapped with 7. The codes remained the same, 3 and 5 miss-fires. 3 and 5 don't fire in order so I didn't think that this could cause the stall and not start problem, specially since these miss-fires were occuring before the stall problem began. Next step was going to be to swap injectors but this is more complicated and I've never done an injector. That's when I ventured into the MAF replacement. Just a thought, can a flacky Coolant Temp Sensor send bad signals to the ECM causing incorrect fule mixture after the engine has heated up? The reason I'm thinking this is that the P0128 which started after the liquid aluminum was used to seal the radiator may be fauling the sensor. I was thinking it may have damaged the t-stat but maybe it's the sensor that got clogged.

 

I guess with all these computerized systems and sub-systems almost anything is possible but I don't think a thermostat would get fouled from a leak stopper. A thermostat in a car isn't a flow-through device, it's just a probe probably with a bi-metal contact that responds to temperature changes.

I'd try the other things I suggested previously and add the use of a fuel injector cleaner that is ingested directly through the intake system instead of the fuel tank delivery method. There are, or were, publicly available kits made specifically for this job that included a pressurized can of injector cleaner, hoses, and fittings. The dealers had these kits and used to charge in the neighborhood of $70.00 and up for just a throttlebody single injector cleaning.

Here's a link to a 3M products fuel injector cleaning system that may be low-tech but is adequate for the job, doesn't cost an arm or a leg, and is easy to use. There's a 6+ minute video the steps you through it so watch before you decide.

3M Do-It-Yourself Fuel System Tune-Up Kit 08963, fuel system cleaning kit, tune up kit

There may yet be a more well hidden problem but you've first got to rule out the simple things first. When a motor stalls you go back to the basics first. It needs three things to run...air, fuel,and spark. We can pretty much rule out the air as it runs at idle when cold and while running at a constant speed even when warm. Spark is still a possibility as it maybe trying to run with two bad/questionable cylinders acting up which would be more noticeable at low speeds or heavy acceleration under load. That leaves fuel to last and here there's some evidence that's what may be causing your problem.

A cruising speed and when the engine is cold and the computers are probably giving it a relatively rich mixture to get it warmed up and the lubricants flowing freely it appears to be O.K. from what you're reporting. It's when the engine is warm and you slow down to turn, come to a stop, or otherwise come off the throttle that the problem appears. In this case the computers, for emissions sake, are leaning out the air/fuel mixture, retarding the spark a little, and generally forcing the engine to slow down. With all that going on it's is very possible that your injectors, which are very likely plugged everywhere to a greater or lesser extent simply can't feed enough atomized fuel into the engine to meet even these lower demands. Just because your fuel pump is delivering 50 lbs. of pressure doesn't mean enough fuel is getting through when needed or in sufficient quantity to keep the engine running. That's just a measurement of pressure, not volume. Keep in mind that when cruising your car is probably in 5th or 6th gear, sipping gas as much as possible, and using it's 2 ton mass to help keep the whole thing moving. When you get off the throttle all of that starts to go away. Fuel flow, already cut by possible blockage, is cut even more, the transmission starts downing shifting, and the engine braking effect starts working against the vehicles mass.

This all may be very academic and way too long but I don't know your level of expertise or mechanical ability, and I've always found that it's easier to understand and diagnose a problem if I can visualize the chain of events that leads to it.

Nothing yet stated by you makes me want to abandon plugs & wires or fuel feed & injectors. Call your trusted tech and ask him if he thinks that partly plugged injectors could cause a stalling problem? I'd be very surprised if he said no.

Good luck & where are the rest of the group who might have another view as to a series of things you could try? After all, I'm still studying up on the peculiarities of Jaguar and most of the members have years of that on me.<G><G>

 

I agree with your diagnosis that it's probably a fuel injector issue. I have used Techron in the tank and there's currently some in it now. I did clean the temp sensor yesterday but was still able to cause a stall in my driveway after the car was at operating temperature. Will work on the injectors next and update afterwards. Thanks.

 

This weekend I pulled the injectors for cylinders 1, 3, and 5 out. Cleaned all three and swapped 1 with 3. 5 went back into cylinder 5. After running the car to temp I was able to get it to stall once after accelerating then letting it come back down to idle. Idle drops real low to 200-300 and sometimes drops so low it just stalls. It did start back up after this stall. Checked codes again and they remained the same, P0300, P0303, P0305, P1316, P0128 and P1111. Seems the injectors are not causing the missfires. I was going to drain the tank but it seems there's a siphon block. I had 3/4 of a tank left and wanted to eliminate the gas as being the issue. Went ahead and topped it off with non-ethanol 90 and added a bottle of Techron fuel injector cleaner. Will be driving on close trips less then 2 miles and see how it goes. It's very frustrating not being to trust the car as it has stranded me many times.

 

Floridakeysonthebeachman

I had pretty much completed an entire response to your latest post when the damn thing crashed and I lost it all. This version will be a lot shorter<G>

Go here: http://www.mediafire.com/view/?ty977xmbghi7sds and download the Powertrain DTC Summaries P Codes.PDF from the X350 download area. It contains a list of the powertrain codes.


Basically your codes all fall into the same general area. P0128 calls out a faulty thermostat or temperature sensor, but P0300, P0303, & P0305 all refer to “random misfire detected” with a whole list of possible causes centered on injectors, plugs, bad fuel, and the worst possibility, a worn cam or broken valve spring. P0303 & P0305 are the same thing but reference the specific cylinder where the problem was detected. P1111 appears to be meaningless or is some sort of system self-check and P1316 is pretty much a repeat of the earlier P0300 series with the addition of the note of ‘excessive emissions’ and only posts if there has been a P0300-P0308 code thrown. I think you pretty much knew all this though.

Anyway, here’s the list of areas to troubleshoot.

ECM to ignition coil primary circuit fault (Cylinder misfire detected DTC also flagged)


Fuel injector circuit fault(s) (Injector DTCs also flagged)

Ignition coil failure

Spark plug failure / fouled / incorrect gap

Cylinder compression low

Fuel delivery pressure (low / high)

Fuel injector(s) restricted / leaking

Fuel injector(s) continuously open

Fuel contamination

Worn camshaft / broken valve

The X350 workshop manual gives you a step by step troubleshooting guide so get a good multi-meter and get to work. You can download all of the US001-US006 sections from the same place you got the above file if you don’t already have them. US004 - Powertrain page 1372 starts the process with code P0300 on.


You don’t mention any codes in the P0200-P0208 series which post when there’s an outright injector failure, it’s disconnected, or has an open or short circuit. I think this rules out the injector portion of the troubleshooting list above since the list also says (injector DTCs also flagged on that item), so if NOT flagged then disregard

 

Of the items on that list, fuel is the only one that hadn't been eliminated. In my previous post I mentioned that I tried to siphon gas but wasn't able to. When the stalls started the tank was full. I kept thinking that maybe I got some bad fuel on the last fill-up. I added a bottle of Lucas Octane Booster and have driven the car a couple of times without a stall. Haven't gone far (2 miles max) but it was up to temp. After warming up it does idle a little ruff sometimes but not as bad and hasn't stalled. Will drive some more and see how it goes.

 

HB, I've been a little busy for the past couple of days so I have to review what's been going on. If it is, indeed a duel problem there are two reasonable alternatives. First, the tank you pulled from was near empty and you picked up the usual accumulation of trash and old gas that lurks there. Two, the tank was contaminated with water which so far, despite the Green movements best efforts, doesn't burn.

If it is the former (dirty gas) then either it is plugging your fuel filter or it was really tiny but plugged one or more injector heads. if it's the latter (water) then octane boost won't really help but alcohol will. Alcohol combines with water and in that state it will actually burn. Not much power but at least the engine will run long enough to empty the tank. You could help by topping off the tank in order to dilute it even further.

I still think you're dealing with a mechanical problem or a sensor gone bad but I'm still studying the options.

Anyone else got any ideas? If so chime in and help.

 

HB let's back up for a minute and take a look at something you mention as pretty much a constant but we've never spoken about possible causes. What were looking for are things that intersect with the codes you've seen and things you've already DEFINITELY thrown out.

Here's the list of possible causes that Jaguar states about 7-8 different times in the latest full model JTIS of what's called 'hot soak restart' which you state you are having a problem with. (Attachment #1)

As you can see a common thread here as with ALL of the P0300 series codes is those nasty injectors again and more specifically #s 3 & 5. You've already ruled out fuel pump / fuel pressure, and I believe the problems pre-dated your leaking radiator and subsequent fix. I kind of doubt the ignition system as it appears to work correctly the rest of the time, and you've already replaced the MAF sensor with what I take is a know good one, either new or if not properly calibrated to your engine.

Let's take a look at just cylinder #3 since it's the same as #5 and the earlier P0300 code just covers a general misfire with P0303 & P0305 pointing out which ones which ones. (Attachment #2)

First up is in the list is an ECM ignition to coal primary circuit fault with a misfire detected DTC also flagged. (Which DTC...from looking all around I'm sure it's the P0300 code).

Second on the list is coils but you say you swapped 3 & 5 (I hope not with each other as that would prove nothing) and the misfire stayed the same so they're sort of ruled out.

Third on the list are the various spark plug problems but I believe you checked, cleaned, and re-gapped them while also checking to make sure they're the right plugs and heat range, so they're out of the picture I guess.

Fuel injector faults is fourth and although you cleaned the injectors I think they're still suspect given everything else that's pointing at a fuel delivery problem and not a fuel firing problem.

Fuel delivery pressure is out since you checked line pressure at 50 psi which should be sufficient since this isn't a high pressure diesel.

5th is the injectors again with possible leaking or restricted. I guess you could power up the system with an injector disconnected and see what happens. Don't forget the usual safety precautions.

6th...injectors again but this time they're open all the time which would cause flooding I would think and lead to problems cold or hot and slow or fast. So it's not my favorite<G>

7th is fuel contamination which you're working on and which I've added my 2 cents earlier.

8th is the worst possible as it's a high dollar mechanical item is the cam and valve spring possibility. Again that should figure in all the time and not just on off-throttle periods.

So.......I'm thinking that you're dealing with an ECM, ECM sensor, or injector related problem. have you tried possibly swapping the injectors from #3 and #1 or #5 & #7 and then seeing if that throws a P0301 or P0307 code? That would at the very least that the problem isn't a cam/valve/fuel/plug problem and would point directly to the injectors.

 

I can't see a mention of changing the fuel filter.
If you haven't I'd change it now.
Can you measure STFTs and LTFTs - that can help with problems like this one.

 

RD When I cleaned the injectors I cleaned 1, 3 and 5. Didn't do 7 because it was in the back and harder to get at. When I put them back in I swapped 1 & 3 and put 5 back in 5. If the injectors were an issue I expected to see the missfire change from P0303 to P0301, it didn't change though. Just as a double check, the odd injectors 1-3-5-7 are on the pasenger side or left looking at the engine from the front of the car. I will be driving for a longer stretch tomorrow to see about the stalls. So far on short trips <2 Miles no stalls. Unfortunately the radiator is leaking again. Will try another can of sealant then replafe if that doesn't work.

Steve thanks for chiming in, I'm not familiar with STFTs and LTFTs, please explain. As far as the fuel filter, I have not replaced it since it didn't seem to fit with the symptons even though I think I had a fuel problem. It will be on my list to replace soon. Do you have the procedure forthis?

 

The fuel filter is located under the left side of the car abaft the driver's seat under the plastic shield and aside from the difficulty of working under a car if you don't have a lift available isn't difficult to get at and replace.

Re move the under engine plastic tray and then the left side plastic splash shield and detach the fuel filter support bracket. Before even loosening the filter be sure to de-pressurize the fuel system as it stays pressurized for quite awhile after the engine is shut off. Remove the filter and discard the two O-rings and then install the new one.


They have a special tool (who doesn't these days) that attaches to the fuel pressure schrader valve but you'll find something simpler. Perhaps your pressure gauge has a release button as well.

 

The gage does have a release, I'll use that. Will pick a filter up this week. Thanks for the info.

 

I don't guarantee any result but a tired filter can reduce fuel flow. The static pressure may appear normal but the flow isn't sufficient.
Fuel trims are very helpful in sorting out problems like yours.
XJRGuy is our resident expert - here's a tutorial from him
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/g...ed-quiz-49317/
If your reader doesn't do live data a cheap solution is an app called Torque and a bluetooth OBD dongle.
You'll find many posts about this on the site.

 

Drove 10 miles to get a fuel filter. No problems geeting there. I went ahead and picked up an oil filter and oil. When I was leaving the store it started and stalled after 2 seconds. Tried three times then did the floor throttle to cut of gas and cranked for about 7 seconds. Was able to start it right after with a little help from the throlttle. Drove about 9 miles (1 from home) and I got the overheat lite and limited performance on display. Never saw a low coolant warning, it came on quick. Shut engine and coasted to a safe parking spot. Went back after 6 hours to bring it home. It was less than 10 oz of coolant low. I was expecting it to be dry. Drove it home fine. I ordered a thermostat assembly. Next up I will be replaceing the fuel filter, oil filter, oil and thermostat assembly. Until then it's not moving.

 

I don't want to go off on a tangent but you might recall a couple of posts ago I mentioned 'hot soak restart' (Post 12). What this post describes is a classic example of that very problem. Basically what happens is that when you shut down the engine after a drive that full warms the engine that heat is transferred while you're sitting to the fuel which essentially boils away. With today's crap gas that isn't hard to do. Anyway, if the stop isn't long enough for everything to get cooled down when you go to restart either it refuses to, or you get about 3 feet and it stalls out from lack of fuel in the cylinders. As an aside I once owned an MGA that over-heated simply because the water pump was flowing 1 lousy gallon per minute less then spec'd so there maybe more going on with your cooling system then you think. Not just the amount of coolant but the flow rate is important.

One last idea or thought. In addition to the injectors being on every list and already coded do not forget that those codes also mention the possibility of a fouled or damaged catalytic convertor. If the either of the converters is in fact plugged, even partially, they can get red hot ('ve seen them so hot they've lit grass on fire) and transfer a lot of heat to the engine and could be adding to the hot soak problem. As a dealer I saw a lot of this in the 80s and 90s.

 

Since the coolant leak issue preceeded the stalling it's possible that the thermostat was failling at the same time as the sealant was introduced or possibly aggravated by the sealant. Since it was warming slow (thermostat not closing all the way) maybe it was also not opening all the way either. In any case, I have the assembly on order and am not drinving until Thermostat and filter list in previous post are replaced. Also, the idoit temp gage was always at dead center when up to temp until it popped up to high for the first time yesterday.