hello,

No findings in air leaks (dampers, fittings etc), I brought my car to a jaguar dealer/service.
again, I didnt have any fault on the dahsboard but my car level was dropping after few days on the front side.

attached, you will find the comments. 175£/each task in order to proceed.
what are you thoughts and recommendations ?

thanks a lot
Antoine

 

Hi Serge,

Does the compressor come on with the key off, or only if the key is turned to the on position or the engine is started? It is normal for the compressor to run after the engine is started but the transmission is left in Park.

Cheers,

Don

 

Hi Don,
It starts only (occasionally, e.g. after an extended period during winter) when the engine is started, but still in P with car not moving.
I thought however that such a behaviour was not usual, and that the compressor would kick-in only when moving at a sufficient speed, hence my answer to ChrisMills.
Cheers,
Serge

 

Hi Serge,

That behavior is completely normal. If you start the engine and do not move the transmission out of Park for several seconds, if the air suspension reservoir pressure is below the minimum threshold, the compressor will start and run for up to 120 seconds to repressurize the reservoir. Once the transmission is shifted out of Park, the air compressor will not run again until the vehicle speed exceeds 25 mph (if I recall correctly - it's in my system summary post).

Cheers,

Don

 

Seems by asking questions about the air suspension my cat decided to raise the stakes. I dearly hope this does not become a Sherlock Holmes mystery...

Started the car, waiting for the compressor to pump up to height (and cool the interior, by NZ standards it's been warm [24°C / 75°F] in the carpark that has 8 heat pumps that cool the hotel above). I then drove about 25 km at motorway speeds. On the way back the motorway was jammed, probably 25 km/hr (15 mph) for about 10K. As we finally picked up speed, I noticed the warning air suspension fault with an amber light. It seemed the ride was stiffer as well. I do recall hitting a part of the road that was poorly formed just before getting on the motorway, noting the bump and looked in the rear view mirror (bad road patch around a manhole cover), but otherwise nothing unusual. Back in the garage the ride height was not low, and pressing on the four corners seemed, if anything, a bit stiff - but since I've never done that before, I have nothing to compare. The only other thing I've noticed since I bought the car a few months ago is suspension squeak when driving over speed bumps at a slow speed. It sounds like old bed springs. BTW, Auckland never goes below freezing, the lowest it gets in winter is about 7°C / 45°F, thus while there may be water in the compressor, it won't freeze.

Looking at the records, in 2020, the prior owner replaced all four control arm bushes (F&R), front and rear lower control arms and sway bar link arms, and had all suspension air lines and connections checked for leaks last October. They found and fixed 2 leaks where lines had been joined inside the left from inner guard (fender). He also bought a set of used air shocks from someone who was converting to Arnott springs, but it made no difference and the shop said the replacement unit was not leaking air. Nevertheless, the front end continued to drop over a few days and I bought it fully informed of the problem (which just meant sitting for 20 seconds with the engine running before the low-suspension warning turned off). Now it seems the stakes have been raised.

Tomorrow, I will take the Autel 808 in to see what codes it throws off. But if anyone has thoughts in the meanwhile, I'll check back with this forum.

Question 1: I need to go to a meeting about 30 km north, almost all on the motorway. If the ride height is OK, is there any chance of damage if after clearing the codes, the fault either returns or the ride is still stiff?

Question 2: I read postings about resetting the system by disconnecting both battery cables and touching the car-side cable ends together. Can I do a hard reset using the Autel 808, or should I do the battery-cable hard reset first?

 

Was one of the warning lamps CATS FAULT? If so, that would explain the firm suspension. The default non-energized state of the dampers is Firm. The ASM energizes the coils at the tops of the dampers, which modulates valves and puts the dampers into Soft mode. If there is a fault in the system, the dampers will revert to Firm at all times. It's not unsafe to drive in this mode, just uncomfortable.

If your Autel can read suspension codes (C-prefix Chassis codes, B-prefix Body codes and U-prefix Network codes), scan it first to see what you have. If you do the hard reset via the battery cables, all codes will be cleared, and with them any helpful diagnostic information they may offer.

Cheers,

Don

 

No CATS FAULT warning.

First reading:

1. ECM —— ( 1 )
1.1. P1582 Flight recorder data is stored
This apparently is not a fault, but a statement

2. TCM (Transmission Control Module (TCM)) —— ( 1 )
2.1. P1797 CAN Transmission Control Module (TCM) to ECM fault.

3. ABS —— ( 2 )
3.1. U2523 CAN message from ECM timeout.
3.2. B2141 Control module configuration failure.

4. IP (Instrument Pack) —— ( 2 )
4.1. B2879 Fuel tank jet pump fault
4.2. U2523 CAN message from ECM timeout.

5. ASU (Air Suspension Module) —— ( 3 )
5.1. U2523 CAN message from ECM timeout.
5.2. U2518 Rear climate control module CAN messaging is missing.
5.3. C2302 Leveling implausible.

6. ATC (Climate Control Module) —— ( 2 )
6.1. U2516 Air suspension module bus off.
6.2. U2523 CAN message from ECM timeout.

7. DSM (Driver Seat Module) —— ( 2 )
7.1. B1940 Seat memory position out of range.
7.2. B2309 Seat motor out of range.
Apparently this is not an error if the VIN number is later, as mine was.

8. GEM (General ECU) —— ( 2 )
8.1. B2496 Anti-theft horn circuit short to ground
8.2. B2363 Optical sensor system fault
I wonder if this is related to the fact that the horn has only one tone... the other one must be unplugged. I don't honk at people enough to have taken a look.

9. REM (Rear ECU) —— ( 2 )
9.1. B2526 Left rear back-up lamp circuit short to battery
9.2. U1262 SCP (J1850) communications bus fault.

Cleared All, did a hard reset.

Within two blocks the Air Suspension Fault returned. Next scan, this came up.

Error: C2302 Leveling implausible. The Autel system explains this is probably an air leak. Using the live diagnostics, the one of the rear sensors was showing a very low reading, but unfortunately I failed to write it down. Next time I'm in town...

Consulting with the guy who sold me the car, he wondered if it might be a bad or loose sensors telling the system the strut is low when it is not, thus it keeps pumping it to max and finally throws a fault code.

Armed with that, I went off to Jaguar Workshop, to see about sensors.

The forum has numerous comments about how slightly weak batteries throw all sorts of CAN errors (see above), and the Autel MP808 was showing about 12.1V with the key on, engine off. I was surprised how relatively cheap Jag Workshop sells Jaguar brand batteries, so out of prudence I began with a new battery... not to solve the air link problem, but to eliminate the obvious in regard to other fault codes. Besides, my 1982 G-Wagon needs a battery and it is far less sensitive to voltage, so it will get hand-me-downs from the Jag.

While we were doing this at the Workshop with the engine off, it became apparent the left rear strut was dropping: losing air... so Error C2302 knew what it was talking about. It was miserable weather and traffic jams everywhere as tomorrow is the beginning of a four-day weekend (Easter Friday to Monday), so I parked the car in the garage and biked down to the ferry without first pulling off the tyre and seeing if anything obvious was bubbling around the struts or tubes. I will keep posting updates as I learn more.

Comments on the fault codes are welcome. When I get this solved, I'll start a new thread that removes all the clutter so the next person with the same challenges gets pointed in the right direction.

 

The rear struts are hard to t/s in the car, as the tops of the struts sit in a "bucket" of bodywork. The upper 6 or 8 inches is not accessible. The only thing you can actually reach is the air fitting in the trunk.

 

Yes, a long list of seemingly unrelated DTCs is common if the battery voltage has sagged too low at some point or if the battery capacity is too low.

C2302 is a very common code associated with air leaks and also with a worn piston ring/seal in the air compressor which prevents the compressor from pressurizing the system within the time allotted by the Air Suspension Control Module (ASM or ASU).

The U2523 and U2516 DTCs might suggest that your firm suspension was due to a loss of CAN communications between the ASM and other modules. This can be caused by low battery voltage, a loose or corroded electrical connector, corrosion on ground points, wiring issues, etc.

You can download one of the more complete versions of the DTC Summaries at the link below. Each code is defined and a list of possible causes given (though frequently we discover causes not listed because they were unknown to the engineers at the time of publication):

Jaguar X350 DTC Summaries 2004

Please do not start a new thread! It's incredibly frustrating for future readers to find a thread like yours, read it hoping to find a resolution, and not finding it in the same thread! Please put the resolution in this thread so all the information is together, regardless of the clutter. It's just far more helpful to have the entire journey in one thread.

Cheers,

Don

 

Hi Antoine,

I'm sorry for the delay in responding. Busy days.

I am not familiar with the P2119-00 code, but if your car is exhibiting Restricted Performance, I would suggest that it is a more urgent issue than the air suspension leak. Look in the DTC Summaries manual I posted a link for recently to see if you can find that code for the definition and possible causes.

Regarding the ride height calibration the dealer recommends, it is certainly likely that your system needs to be calibrated, but a calibration will not resolve an air leak.

Do you park your car on a sloped or inclined surface? That's one thing that can prompt the suspension to lower itself in an attempt to bring the car as close to level as possible while at rest. Otherwise, I think you have an air leak somewhere, possibly in an air spring top seal or bladder. One failure mode we have seen is that when the air springs are full and one has a small pinhole leak, that corner (or both front air springs if the leak is at the front) will sag to a point where the air bag rolls down over itself and seals the pinhole leak, so the car only lowers to a certain level but not all of the way. Using a gauge setup like lcmjaguar's can help isolate such a leak.

Cheers,

Don

 

Google search turned up this thread

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...solved-196775/

In that case, it turned out to be corrosion in the fuse box.

First everyone said to replace the battery, and from the zillions of comments about battery sensitivity, that seems good generic advice. My OBD reader showed a lot of CANbus errors on my 2004 XJ6 which could be real problems or a weak battery (mine was 12.1 volt with key on / engine off) and a new Jaguar/Land Rover brand battery was NZ$299 (US$210) plus tax. So, out of prudence and to know that I am starting with a sure thing, I bought a new JLR battery and a smart charger that should ensure I don't get lost in the rabbit hole (provided I did not get a defective battery which can happen). In the case above, that did not solve the problem.

The dealer (under a used-car warranty purchased with the car 17 days prior) then swapped out the Throttle Body since that is what the fault code specified. That did not solve the problem.

Finally, after it was at the Jaguar dealer for a week, the mechanic found the fuse box had corrosion. When it was replaced, all the problems went away.

This of course is the problem with cars. They are complicated, and each type of car has its own weak links.

When I visited Jaguar Workshop south of Auckland, I knew I had found a specialist. His workshop was surrounded by a sea of Jags; there must have had been 50-100 Jags covering his land, including a lot of X350s, S-types and X-types as well as the oldies. When I asked him what was the notable weakness of the X350's, he said it is the reason I was there, the air suspension. Other than that, they are strong cars. So I am learning about air suspensions, and from what I can tell, while expensive, the system is the same as tyres and brakes, the key components wear out with time. The only question seems to be Arnott or Bilstein OEM when replacing the struts.

However, in addition to known weak components, when cars went from analogue to digital, it introduced a whole new realm of vulnerabilities. Sensors and fault codes can be very helpful in quantifying a diagnosis, rather than the old way of eyeballing and wiggling stuff. However, the system itself adds a new layer of things that can go wrong, and unfortunately, car manufacturers charge very high prices (gouging in my opinion) for digital components like the OBD computer and associated electronic parts.

Thus as forum members, it behooves us to document each time an aging problem crops up, like looking at the fuse box (and every other place wires are joined) for corrosion. We should document where due to motion, vibration or exposure, particular wires break, and where they start and end so a test jumper can be run to bypass that would isolate the break or damage. Imagine if the dealer's mechanic first came to a sticky on this forum and saw that if they get P2119 to make sure to check the fuse box. It would have taken ten minutes at best to say Yup, that's bad and replace it.

It does seem that a clean engine bay in an older car is something that should be viewed with caution rather than delight. How did the engine get so clean? The odds are it was a used-car dealer sending it out to some ape shop where a minimum-wage worker blasted moisture into electronic boxes that initiated corrosion that would show up weeks or months later. Or, the car was owned by someone suffering OCD who associates spotlessness with perfection. We had loaner ebikes for guests, and a young German guest made sure the bike was pressure washed every evening. The motor quit because the controller was not meant to be blasted with water that would tear your skin off. Cost me $500 to replace the motor, because the controller was obsolete.

Back to my part in this air-strut thread, today I hope to take one of my spare rear struts (that came with the car) into town and swap out the one that is low. Don't know if that is the problem (and I will soap test first), but since I have the spare, it may be a good first start. Long term, I'm beginning to think I will need to find a place to park a spares car of the same year and model.

 

These cars are notorious for air system problems in the cold. I have had the exact same problem and I live in Mississippi and it barely gets cold. The cold weather interferes with the ability of the shocks to maintain air pressure. You could very well have a leak in one of the front shocks.


 

As far as I know The seal leaks cannot be tested with soapy water only the top leak .
I installed a RMT rebuild this week on the rear of my XJR . Did not test the air setting or check valve after installation . The next morning the rear of the car was low .
Suspected that the air fitting was leaking and would require pulling the trunk panels out again . But it has stood proud the last two days and not dropped again .

 

sorry about the last post not sure what happened But you most certainly have a leak as I had the exact same problem. It will start off very slight at first. The only option is to replace the defective shocks with the either the Arnott Air Shocks or the OEMs. The OEMS are way too expensive with no real warranty. Arnott has a life time warranty and really good customer service. If you could afford to, just replace both front shocks and problem solved. If possible I would advise getting them from AutohausAZ. Alternatively, if the air struts are no big deal to you you could just replace them with coil over shocks and delete the air system altogether; no more air problems. I have no affiliation with either company just speaking from experience. Other members here can speak to the quality or lack there of of the coil over struts. I have heard many good things about them.

 

Yeah my car was serviced by Jaguar Workshop (NZ), excellent service...until they moved a bit far away. Have had one job done by Beacham so far (control arm bushings) and happy with them too. Of course, DIY'ers would get a fright in both cases.
I'm not aware of a "JLR battery", but certainly the recommended battery is "calcium" and specifically "silver calcium" within that. Which might not be available lol. Many people report using AGM batteries, whether they suffer shorter life is anyone's guess. It has been claimed our cars "charge at a higher voltage", but it seems pretty standard to me in the modern era. "Jag Workshop sells Jaguar brand batteries"-do you have a picture?

"so I parked the car in the garage and biked down to the ferry"
I LOVE IT. You should write a book. Sorry, just appealed to me. The Jaguar Club mid-winter dinner is at Riverhead, maybe the ferry goes there...

P.S. as to everyone documenting their Air Suspension probs, it does appear to be well covered in the sticky's, as well as every n'th thread, though I don't think I've read of a fuse-box corrosion related to this item before.
And before all the coil-overers get involved, the air suspension may be a recurring problem (and so are things like control arm bushes). But it's necessary for each problem, to get an idea of mileage and whether it has needed replacing more than once (in how many miles). Stuff like that if reliability is to be seriously examined. For all I know, some things may be age-related rather than mileage-related, which certainly appears the case in my changing control arm bushes at 90k (km). And plastic bottles in the engine compartment, who would've thought. And sagging headlinings, after 100 years of cars having headlinings...

 

Perhaps, but they appear to be notorious in all climates. (I have not seen any statistical correlation to climate)
The lessons of STS51L notwithstanding, there appears to be no reason to immigrate to our temperate climate in the hope your air suspension will work better. And if it gets too hot, look up not down (the headlining)

 

Yes Don, my 2003 X350 also has a front that sags down after 3 or 4 days.
Uusually flags a "LOW" on the instrument cluster and it might take 2 or 3 minutes engine on or driving to clear
In last year have twice had battery almost fully discharge overnight for no good reason.
The battery is ( I think ) about 80AH so something must draw at least 5A.
Prime suspect would be the compressor even if it should not run.

Regarding 40A fuse I doubt the compressor is anywhere near 40 x 14 = 560W.
Window lift motors run about 3A x 12V and stall at 10A at end of travel.
That gives an idea of wattage if you eyeball the compressor motor.
I have not looked at mine yet but would expect around 100W.
Anybody measured it ?

 

The original X350 batteries were manufactured by Varta, who touted their "silver calcium" technology. The silver content was quite low, but many X350 owners did not have to replace those original batteries until they were 8+ years old, so the quality was undeniable.

The Workshop Manual or Dealer Training Manual describes the X350 charging system, which under certain conditions can charge the battery at 15.3 volts (from memory). Apparently the silver calcium batteries required higher charging voltages under certain conditions and the X350 charging strategy was designed around those batteries.

15.3 volts is certainly higher than most automotive charging systems produce (I work on a wide variety of vehicles and 14.7 volts is a common high output). 15.3 volts is also higher than most AGM or flooded lead-acid batteries reportedly tolerate long-term, according to at least one reference I found (possibly batteryuniversity.com). I have a couple of friends who only got 2 years of life out of good-quality lead-acid batteries in their X350s, and one with a similar experience with an AGM battery, though there may have been underlying issues with all three vehicles. As long as you get a battery with at least a 3-year warranty, this may only be an inconvenience.

As far as I know, the Varta silver calcium batteries were never available on the aftermarket in the U.S. and may no longer be available in Europe. I do not know about Australia and New Zealand. Varta is now owned by a Canadian conglomerate (formerly the battery division of Johnson Controls).

For a time, Exide offered a Global Extreme or NASCAR Extreme battery that our member Box confirmed with Exide was rated to tolerate the X350's high charging voltages. Exide has either discontinued or changed the branding of these batteries and I do not know if they are the same or if the technology has changed.

For many years Varta made the Bosch automotive batteries, and I have used those successfully in X350s and other Jaguars. The last widespread U.S. distributor of the Bosch batteries was PepBoys, and they have discontinued them and gone to the Champion brand batteries (made by Federal-Mogul and marketed by Johnson Controls).

Cheers,

Don

 

The first point is that DonB is quite right, silver-calcium is the specified battery. Hard to find, but never mind.

The "saving grace" is that whilst the X350 charging system charges to a "high voltage" (in my case around 14.5v but apparently can be higher) it does so for only 5 minutes (depending). Before dropping back to around 13.5v.

This is the point which makes most of the guff about "high voltage" or "overcharging" irrelevant. And also I suspect why people "get away" happily with AGM batteries reportedly for a long time (reports in this forum).

Less well known, is that you can drive your car for hours and it will never fully charge the battery. A smart charger will put in (perhaps 10% more), which is why I keep my car on a charger. Of course this might be inconvenient to some, but a 80%~90% charged battery if you park it on the roadside, is degrading! One can get carried away of course, and sometimes I wish I'd never been an electronics technician.

Nevertheless, certainly the car was originally designed for silver-calcium batteries. If you can find one.

Cheers!

TLDR: Yes X350 charges to a "high" voltage, but only for 5 minutes.

I would also opine that the well-meant and true advice that "you should have a good battery", refers more to it's capacity than it's type. Older batteries have more "internal resistance", meaning their terminal voltage can drop "dangerously" under load.

 

Varta silver calcium batteries are routinely available in Europe.

I don't put my car on a charger and I usually drive it only once a week for about 40 km (also for long journeys but only 3-4 times a year).
Under these conditions, no problem of discharge, of failing battery, of warnings on the dashboard whatsoever.
These Varta batteries are very resilient and last for many years without problems (I changed recently the previous battery after about 7 years of solid service).