And some people prefer to actually use their minds as opposed
to letting others do their thinking.

You forgot FORD, who officially spec Mercon SP for the same transmission.

So you are one of the few people willing to pay full list for a vehicle?

 

I am actually as frugal as anyone here. Might have tried SP in the first ZF 6 speed flush if I knew it was identical. Did not, and used ZF LG6.
Might try SP if I change the tranny fluid in the wife's car that has a 6 speed ZF. Just looked on Amazon and it is available for 72.00 a case with free shipping. I assume BMW used LG6 in 2007. The BMW brand fluid is recommended.

 

Hi David,

I'm hoping you are going to prove once and for all that Mercon SP is safe in our ZF's with Jaguar-programmed Mechatronics. As I reported in another thread, I contacted ZF and one of their U.S. distributors, California Transmission Supply Co., and both replied that they could not confirm that the fluids are the same. The ZF representative stated that Ford programs their Mechatronics specifically for Mercon SP, which may have different slippage properties compared to LG6. I hope that when you report your adaptations after the fluid change we'll have conclusive proof that SP is fine!

I'm familiar with fun2drive's 2012 post in the bimmerfest forum that you quoted regarding the analysis he said he paid Blackstone Labs to perform on Mercon SP and Lifeguard 6. He said he would post the pdf of the report once he had edited out personal information, but did he ever post the actual report? If you have a link or a copy of the pdf, could you please post it here?

I have seen this statement in various forums but so far no one has provided any documentation. Is this reasoned conjecture or can it be documented?

Could you also post the source of the Shell internal numbers you quote above? The more verifiable information we have the easier it will be to recommend SP without reservation.

What has concerned me is that, depending on which material safety data sheet you consult, the published specifications for Shell M-1375.4 and Lifeguard 6 are essentially identical, while those for Mercon SP are close but not identical.

For example, this ZF MSDS states that the base oil (60-100%) of Lifeguard 6 is CAS 8042-47-5:

http://www.worldpac.com/tagged/ZF_Lifeguard_6.pdf

This base oil is listed as "white mineral oil (petroleum):"

8012-95-1;8042-47-5, White mineral oil (petroleum), CAS No 8012-95-1;8042-47-5 White mineral oil (petroleum)


On the other hand, this Ford MSDS (page 562 of the pdf manual) states that the base oil (60-100%) of Mercon SP is CAS 64742-54-7:

https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubrican...ed/US_MSDS.pdf

This base oil is listed as "hydrotreated heavy paraffinic petroleum distillates:"

64742-54-7, Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy paraffinic, CAS No 64742-54-7 Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy paraffinic


The only published Viscosity Index I could find for Shell M-1375.4 was 151, while the published VI for Mercon SP is 155, both representing very low viscosity transmission fluids (for comparison, Pentosin ATF1 LV has a VI of 168).

Published kinematic viscosities at 40C for LG6 are 26.8 - 28; while for Mercon SP they're 28 - 32. Similar, but not identical.

I hope your experiment and adaptation comparisons are successful. If so, you'll save a lot of folks a lot of money in the future.

Thanks for your work on this!

Don

 

Don, I'll have to address this in two parts due to time today. When you go back to Shell's internal numbers, you'll find the base stock is used in a number of various lubricants under brand specific usage, and was researched at Shell's global site, I'll have to go back the trail, but the same stock is identified. Saw it for myself. The FIR number listed in your Ford MSDS is actually for Custom Bright Metal Cleaner. (chrome polish) The MSDS listed for ZF is actually naphthalic fluid used in the medical field. (baby-oil) I know it gets confusing really quick.

Here is the Blackstone images...

 

There is other fluids that have higher specifications than LG6 and Mercon SP. some are related to mileage intervals in ZF bus transmissions. Which not apples to apples, it is close to unrelated.
Audi (VW) must have looked at this transmission and the fluid requirements. In the same vintage Audi's as our x350's they recommended a different fluid depending on engine torque.
Only the base 4.2 NA engine was filled with LG6. 6+ and LG 8 were used with the bigger motors. For the S/C engine in my XJR they most likely would have filled it with a higher spec fluid.
The Audi engineering (ART) tended to over engineer many things. Tranny fluid may be one. Many swapped out LG6 for LG8 which requires a LOT of fluid. Most were done at the dealer. The results are inconclusive, some A8's have over 200K with original fluid and filter. And perfectly fine transmissions. I saw someone post than had 400,000 on an A8 but do not know maintenance history.
I think disagreeing about SP/LG is fine. But either is better than the original fluid after 10 years and 100,000 miles.

 

LG8 is different. Shell used to call it's spec M-1375.4, Shell ATF SP, now called Spirax S4 ATF MSP. (code for Mercon SP) It is specifically designed for "Filled for life potential in ZF Automatic Transmissions" For Ford, it's called Mercon SP, and sold under the Motorcraft brand name.

https://prodepc.blob.core.windows.ne...en-CA)_TDS.pdf

 

Four months and few thousand miles of daily driving later, I can confirm my transmission is still smooth as silk with the SP. I'm just a tad over 155K miles now.

 

As a side note to this, let's keep in mind that the people recommending that we only use only LG6 or Jaguar fluid, are the same ones who falsely labeled the units as sealed for "life".

In addition they failed to anticipate and properly engineer a means to change fluid, while using cheap fasteners that break, and plastic pans that are prone to leaking during their "lifetime", etc. So should we really rely on their self-serving elimination of alternatives meeting the same specs?

I used Mercon SP eight months ago, and not only was there immediate improvement in transmission performance, there was a continuing improvement over the next several months. Now the transmission behaves like new.

 

Biggest things to keep in mind, is the fluid designed for the application. Is the viscosity correct for the application. Is the base additives providing protection adequate/similar. Are any addition additives for specific friction modifications required. Since Mercon SP is the specified fluid requirement, M-1375.4, and both products are produced by Shell for this application, I'm becoming more convinced the warnings from ZF may have more to do with profit margins, than actual performance. I'll feel more comfortable when I see the adaption numbers. As one who used to work for one of the Big 3, I do know there can required usage of a given fluid spec, but both SP and LG6 meet ZF's recommendation.

 

I've heard many theories about which transmission fluid is best, but in my humble opinion, the highest authority on the subject is ZF, the manufacturer that designed the transmission to operate properly according to the properties of a specific fluid.

I'm not sure we should consider LG8 a "higher spec" fluid compared to LG6. It is a newer fluid with different specs, but it may or may not be the correct fluid for your application. According to ZF, LG8 is not backward-compatible in applications where LG6, LG5 or Dexron II/III was originally specified. In this regard, ZF's recommendations contradict the claims of Valvoline and most other third-party fluid marketers who claim their one fluid is backward compatible with several generations of fluid.

If LG8 were just a "higher spec" fluid, you would think ZF would recommend that owners of older vehicles "upgrade" to LG8, but they do not. For the X350 (both N/A and S/C) they still recommend LG6. For X308s with the ZF 5HP24, they still recommend LG5. And for our '93 VDP with the 4HP24 they still recommend an ATF that meets the original Dexron II/III specifications (true Dexron III is no longer available; the fluid with the closest specs that I have found is Redline D4).

Here's the current ZF fluid recommendation document - see page 4 of the pdf:

http://www.zf.com/global/media/en_zf...s/TE-ML_11.pdf


Others are welcome to second-guess the ZF engineers, but for me, the safest route is to follow their recommendations.

Now, if David's tests establish that his transmission's adaptations on Mercon SP vary only slightly compared to LG6, we'll have the kind of evidence I've been looking for that SP is safe for long-term use in our Jag-programmed boxes.

Cheers,

Don

 

There might be good reason to second guess ZF contained in the document you linked to:


They are only recommending an oil change for cars that are thrashed to their limits, which we all know for a fact is nonsense. Our X350, fits none of their three criteria of severe operating conditions, but clearly needed and benefited from an oil change. So, yes I suppose I feel comfortable second guessing at least the marketing department of ZF, as I doubt the engineers actually wrote the recommendations.

Lifetime = warranty period + 1 day.

Maybe a simple and easy way to think about it is: brand new Mercon SP is significantly better than old worn out LG6?

Cheers

 

Great discussion!

I have had one three BMW's (5/7 series), two Audi's (A8 and S8), and one Mercedes (E 4 matic) with "lifetime fill" ZF automatics. And, all came with strictly proprietary ATF requirements (at $35 - $60/L). I changed ATF and filters in all of them, using a mix of OEM (eg MB) and aftermarket (eg Pentosin) ATF.

Never had a problem. The (D2/D3) Audi's were infamous for plugged trans filters and burned out (starved) front pumps (according to ZF Chicago)

My only trans failure was the MB (Valeo OEM radiator leaked coolant into the ATF cooling line inside the radiator

I appreciate the homework and experience shared by the good folks on this forum. I will change the pan/filter on my XJR (using ZF parts), and will use the recommended Mercon SP with confidence

BTW, people love the looks and ride of my old Jag, but tell me they would never own one themselves due to the legendary expense of ownership. I wholeheartedly agree with them, and recommend they buy only new or CPO with a rock solid warranty. Old Jags are for folks like us who can figure out how to keep them going at a reasonable cost; ATF etc included

Now, if someone could explain trans adaptions vs ATF....

 

Fluid dynamics and viscosity, as well as friction modifiers will affect the shift patterns. One of the unique properties of the ZF transmission is that it has overlapping clutch/brake engagement. The solenoids controlled by the Mechatronic and it's pulse width, depending on torque will be affected. If you use fluid that moves too far outside it's programmed pulse width modulation, you can damage/destroy the clutches.

 

Many thanks

I seem to recall having to reset something in VAG COM after replacing a "conductor plate" years ago. Assume the "Mechatronic" is the trans ECM? Need the "adaption" values be checked or edited on our cars?

Funny, I looked at an '03 (X308) XJR while shopping last year, and believe it had same MB 5 sp as my old E55. Assume all the X350 V8 cars have same trans (ZF 6sp) and same fluid requirements?

 

Was reading this and just thought I'd add in my experiences. Changed the fluid in the trans (and the pan) for both my SV8 and the wifes STR with Castrol Import multi-vehicle ATF (meets the right specs) at about $7 CDN per liter. My SV8 - been just over a year and about 20,000 kms, nothing but perfect operation. Wife's STR - changed about 4 years and 100,000kms ago, again, nothing but perfect, if not better, operation. Argue fluids makes all you want, to me, if it meets the specs, it'll work.

 

X308 and X350 are two different transmission types. They are not the same. Bosch makes the TCM (Mechatronics) and you cannot adjust the firmware. They are predetermined values. When you service the 6HP26, you reset to default values and drive to adjust initial solenoid PWM. After that, it makes it's own determinations. SDD is used to do the initial drive after reset. 04~09 XJ8 use 6HP26

 

Don, the beginning of the trail, is where is Shell making this fluid. I said in another thread, one of my acquaintances stated that were producing at the Houston facility. Here is the MSDS for Shell Spirax S4 ATF MSP. What you'll find is this is also the same MSDS for Motorcraft Mercon SP, FIR #187660, which is imprinted on the bottle.

https://prodepc.blob.core.windows.ne...s_00833962.PDF

 

Mac,

You're right, that was the original position of ZF, but they later revised the final line of that clause to read as follows (I am attaching one of the ZF documents in which this appears):

"Depending on the driving style, ZF therefore recommends a transmission oil every 80 000 to 120 000 km, or after 8 years at the latest."


I would certainly agree with that statement if David's experiment establishes that the transmission adaptations on SP are sufficiently similar to those on LG6 to consider the fluids equivalent. But we don't yet know for certain. I don't think your statement is the equivalent of, "Brand new Dex VI is significantly better than old worn out ATF+4," but until we have definitive evidence I'm reserving judgement.

Cheers,

Don

 

I know turkeybaster115 has stated that in some of the BMW forums, and I recall that perhaps another BMW forum member reported that his brother or cousin had worked at Shell in Houston and that they made Mercon SP there.



Now if we could find a Lifeguard 6 MSDS listing those same ingredients in the same proportions.... I'll have to go through my collection to see what I can find.

BTW, that kinematic viscosity at 40C of 26.8 is the lowest I've seen stated for Mercon SP. Most references specify 28 and at least one specifies a range of 28-32. Most of the Lifeguard 6 MSDS I've seen specify 26.8 with one or two specifying 28.

Cheers,

Don

 

Mechatronic (or Mechatronik in German) is the ZF term for the combined valve body and transmission control module.

Cheers,

Don