Yes, I have read through this forum extensively.

Having lived with a Merccedes Benz for some time, I am quite unimpressed with the "over engineering" as they advertise. I drove a relative's Honda Insight mk1 for an extended pereiod of time, and decided I want an aluminum chassis. For me, that leaves the 2000-03 Audi A8 long, or the 2004-07 Jaguar X350 long. As an engineer who does all my repairs, I am quite concerned with the advertised "German Engineering" and the fact that Audi is really Volkswagen.

I understand that influence from Ford ownership of Jaguar dramatically improved design for quality, and build quality control. I would appreciate some feedback about long term reliability of the X350 (e.g., greater than 200K miles), and design for repairability.

For example, I have found that Mercedes and Volkswagen engineers have a habit of obstructing screwdriver/tool access by mere millimeters, thus requiring complete removal of several layers of obstructing components. Is there a similar problem with the X350?

Or, should I really be looking for a Lexus if I want high long term reliability and top-notch design for repair?

 

If you've come here looking for a reliable, cheap to maintain luxury car, I think you've come to the wrong place. For me the benefit of the Jag is its pedigree, class and classic looks.

Remember, the looks are timeless, the mechanical components are not!

 

There is such a thing as "over thinking a problem". I know, I've been guilty of it myself. Cars of the type you are interested in, any car actuality, have personalities that stem from the mind set and culture of the design team, production environment of the country of origin, etc. For instance, we now see car interiors designed for the Chinese mkt. with lots of certain colors in the interior. Some companies favor certain types of fasteners over others and standard solutions to recurring mechanical issues.

My approach has been to select a car I like and then to set about learning it's personality. "Getting to know you, getting to know all about you" as the song goes. For me, that's part of the enthusiast ownership experience.

 

+1!

I also though Ford's involvement would've brought reliability but it might be the opposite.

One of my cars is German high end car (1995 Porsche 911) and they are a World apart when it comes to engineering and reliability.

I don't have 1st hand experience of modern Audis but there's something to be said about German engineering, in general, they produce good and reliable products which based on my experience Jaguar certainly isn't, far from it.

Drives great and IMO is nice looking car but reliable it is not.

 

Clearly you are not familiar with Jaguars that came before Ford got involved...

 

With the way car manufacturers buy and sell other car manufacturers these days I think it might be hard to find purity of bloodline, so to speak. But if the result is good I wouldn't worry too much about who the corporate parent is.







I've never owned an X350 so I'm talking out of my hat. However most owners love 'em, it seems. Historically speaking Jaguars are durable and it isn't unusual to see 200k mile examples purring along.

But durabilty and reliability are two different things. And reliability doesn't mean that a car is inexpensive or easy to own....so perhaps the question needs to be narrowed down a bit.







Having never worked on an X350 I can't comment on ease-of-repair. My experience with older models is that ease-of-repair isn't something Jaguar engineers care too much about, broadly speaking.





Is Lexus really Toyota ? :-) Sorry, couldn't resist.

I wasn't aware that Lexus was particularly repair-friendly but it wouldn't surprise me if they were. My (somewhat limited) experience with various Japanese cars is that they are intelligently engineered and constructed and are generally easy to work on.

If ease-of-repair is indeed a known Lexus hallmark, and if it's that important to you, and it sounds like it is, then Lexus might well be the best choice for you.

Lexus has a very good reputation, undoubtedly well deserved. I'm not sure if they are particularly reliable or inexpensive to own as age and mileage creeps up, though.

In any case, a Lexus, as outstanding as it is, can never, ever be a Jaguar.

Cheers
DD

 

I had a Lexus LS400 before I came into the Jaguar scene, and although it had a feeling of dependability (I'm sure it could've gone to 300k miles if I had stuck with it), it had all kinds of annoying rattles and buzzes (my Jag has them too, btw), and it wasn't cheap to maintain like people would have you believe. I had to do a lot of suspension work, and it didn't have an air suspension, either!

 

It's difficult to know what advice to give here. I have an X350 with the Ford 3 litre V6 not sold in the US, you just get the V8. This Ford engine is considered to be exceptionally reliable.

The main improvement Ford made was to spend about 100 kings ransoms on production facilities. The existing facilities were so awful that a Ford manager sent to investigate described it as worse than an Eastern bloc car plant, the worst he had ever seen ! Jaguar had some very talented designers but never generated enough money to spend on production plant, and this showed in the cars. I had a Series 3 and this was just about the worst built car I have ever owned, yet was only eight years old at purchase whereas my current X350 was seven years, and almost like a new car, there was just no comparison.

As for Japanese, I had a Mazda Xedos for seven years, and this was very reliable, exceptional even. However it was a totally anonymous barge; very good at its job but no more. Even with this, I had to replace the aircon control panel and Mazda wanted £500 for this even though a small push switch was all that was needed, so I bought a used one and installed it myself. I took the car to 137000 miles at which point rust started to appear at a rear wheel arch, and a few other things started to go wrong so I traded it for a Rover 75, a beautiful stylish car, which proved exceptionally reliable as well. All the same, the Jaguar lured me away, as I thought if I don't get a Jaguar now, I never will again as retirement approached.

There is a cosmetic corrosion issue with the aluminium body, and I suspect the Audi will be similar. Unlike steel, aluminium will skin over if exposed to air, thus preventing further attack, but if air is excluded, salt solutions can cause corrosion under the paint, leading to bubbling. This is only a cosmetic thing, caused mainly, I suspect, by Jaguar not being fully up-to-speed on painting aluminium in the early years of the X350. They are not alone, as I have seen similar on railway coaches made of aluminium. They are still around after 35 years, so it doesn't seem to have affected them too much !!

Actually, the more one looks the more aluminium one sees, like the suspension, engine, gearbox case and so on, the seat frame as made of magnesium alloy as is the dash support beam. There is very little steel in the car.

I personally find the build quality to be exceptional, but like all cars, they do have some faults, it depends whether you want total perfection or not. If you do, then you will be unhappy with the car, on the other hand if you buy the Lexus and get a rare fault, maybe you will die of shock.

Obviously the Lexus is the safe choice.

 

Thank you all very much for sharing your opinions and experience.

Perhaps I should have characterised durability rather than reliability. For example, My first car was a new 1986 Honda CRX si. Not having the time DIY repair, I spent more than the original cost of the car in repairs over 160K miles and 12 years. At the end, the chassis was severly cracked and rusting through -- in Southern California sunshine! By comparison, the 1984 Mercedes 190D acquired at 210K miles has cost less than US$1,000 in DIY repairs (including a US$300 parts car) over a period of three years and 60K miles.

So, the Mercedes has been far more durable than the Honda with respect to chassis, drivetrain (MT5), and other critical systems. However, most of the other non-critical systems have failed, which is not terribly surprising after 27 years. And, I am rather accepting of rebuilding or redesigning them (e.g. climate control vacuum based system).

As far as design, yes, every engineering team has a unique personality and set of priorities. Perhaps the relevant question is whether anybody knows how integrated was the CAD design for the X350.

With respect to repairability, for example, replacement of the air suspension components seem quite straightforward to me. (If the system really is referenced from an analog potentiometer, then the reference can simply be measured with a multimeter instead of mechanical positioning of the entire suspension).

Nothing is totally perfect. That is not the goal of my inquiry. Rather, I do not want to rebuild (restore) a car that was poorly designed and constructed in the first instance. What I am hearing is a confirmation that the X350 significantly improved upon prior model designs built in an antiquated plant, and a full vehicle restoration project is not needed at 120K miles.

And, I do wish the V6 engine was available here, petrol or diesel.

Additional comments are welcome. Thanks again!

 

I don't know, I don't think the Jag is durable either! The air suspension certainly doesn't last long, and neither do interior pieces, even in my car which is 5 years old with only 45k miles on it! My headliner is starting to sag, shift knob has all kinds of cracks, plastic chrome bits around the car are starting to come apart, etc. Not to mention all of the annoying transmission clunks that almost all the ZF Jags seem to have. When my power steering isn't making a squeaking sound, it's shuddering!

I love my Jag and want to keep it a long time, but I really don't have any faith in my Jag's ability to make it to 200k without me having to spend more than the car is worth replacing failed components.

 

That's been my experience.

2004 XJ8 with about 60K miles, during my ownership which has been 3 years and from 30K to about 60K so far.
Already replaced (prices & miles approx):

-Sagging headliner at 45K ($400)
-Water leak at 45K (sunroof, fixed myself)
-Broken coolant reservoir at 45K ($150)
-Throttle body at 50K ($1200)
-Transmission reflashed/additive added at 55K ($450)
-Right rear shock replaced at 55K (frigging $2000! One shock!)
-A/C stopped working at 55K, broken relay or something ($900)
-Water leak at 60K (probably sc unit's connetion/pipe, there's another thread and I'm already afraid of the cost)

So that's where I'm at this point, 30K miles, 3 years and more than $5000 for FIXING something that has broken/nor working properly.

Normal maintenance has been normal and not expensive, I change oils, brakes, filters etc. myself and that has been positive.

It's the stupid stuff that breaks and ir VERy expensive that should not break at this point, 60K miles in modern vechiles is not much at all.
For example $1200 for a throttle body at 50K?
And that throttle body problem is pretty damn common in these things.
That's not normal, it's a sign of a POS design and there should be a TSB about it.

Love the way this thing looks and drives (for a luxury sedan) but hate the problems that absolutely should not be a problem at this kind of car at this point in it's life.

 

As a fellow Mercedes owner, this is my second, the first was an '89 W126 420SEL and my current one is the final year of the W124, it depends on which generation of MB you have to get the "proper" built-like-a-tank feel and quality.

The W123's had it, too. IMO, it stopped in the late-90's, as MB had to compete with Toyota on the LS400/ES300, directly. When I was shopping for a replacement vehicle, I came across a '99 E320. Looked at it, and it felt cheesy. As a result, I bought a ten year older S-class, and was quite happy with it. This was circa-2007, I think.

Even my W124 is rock-solid, and engineered to be repaired, seemingly indefinitely, using roadside parts, if need be.

However, the car lacks luxury. I have no real complaints...24.5 MPG with the A/C on for my commute, and at 174K miles, it still doesn't rattle, but it's just, meh. That, and reverse doesn't work all that well, though it's been that way for 20K miles. Doing a transmission rebuild, IMO, isn't worth it on this vehicle (though I did do an entire front-end late-last year...safety and all).

Like the DirecTV commercial Russian guy would say...opulence, it does not have it.

From what I've read about the X350, and I'd go no older than a 2005, but even the first year isn't like the Jags of old...the kind where you'd better have a flatbed wrecker on speed-dial.

I'm very anti-FoMoCo, have had not one, but two uttery-crap vehicles made by them, but the combination appears to have made two 'wrongs' into a 'right'.

Personally, I'm actively shopping for an '06 Super V8 in silver, preferably with a light interior.

FWIW, I am very much a DIY guy, and will not hesitate to tackle almost anything. I think this is a requirement if you intend to drive what was a very expensive car when new, into its old age. My wife's car is an '02 Lexus RX300...essentially an opulent Camry tall-wagon. She likes it, and it's a great road-trip car. Soul-less? Yeah. Reliable? Damned straight. The car has never had anything fail.

Wait, that's not 100% true. I replaced the OEM battery year-before last, no complaints getting 7 years from an OEM flooded-cell, and I replaced the antenna mast a couple of weeks back because it was making noise while rasing/lowering. The front brake rotors are newer, but the original owner both lived in the Lake Tahoe mountainous area and probably drove with one foot on the brake pedal at all times.

Air-suspension, except on commercial-chassis vehicles, has never been as durable or inexpensive to repair as steel and regular dampers. You want air-suspension pain stories? Go talk to some Lincoln owners....

 

A lot of us are DIY guys, too, but that doesn't mean we relish repairing a car that shouldn't need to be repaired in the first place if it were built properly.

I have never gotten that "built to last" feeling when driving my Jag.

 

I agree...although I'm a long, long way from being an authority on MB. But, I've driven and worked on a few.

Mercedes markets SO many different cars in widely different price ranges. The upper-range models seem to have that "quality feel" to them. The mid or lower priced offerings don't seem to be particularly high quality in terms of materials or build quality...at least not on initial impression.

Although it may be too simplistic, I would certainly hope that a $90k Jag would feel like a higher quality automobile than a $50k Mercedes. And a $130k Mercedes damn well better feel like a higher quality automobile than a $90k Jag! :-)

And I would say that the late-80s and earlier MBs are overall higher quality automobiles than the more modern offerings.

I've spoken with a few MB owners who wish they had kept they're older models as they feel the quality has gone down. Conversely, most owners of modern Jags are happy to be out of their older cars and into something better, as they feel the quality has gone up.

If forced to make a sweeping generalization I'd say that MB builds a higher quality car than Jaguar does...but we know how dangerous sweeping generalizations can be :-)

All in my (limited) humble opinion, of course.

Disjointed ramble "off" for now :-)

Cheers
DD

 

I'm with you, there, and I didn't mean to insinuate Jag owners run to the dealer at the first sign of trouble. Rather, to keep costs (relatively) in-check on high-end vehicles, you've gotta become an expert in them. I was thinking more high-mileage/long-term.

I'm still one of the optimistic ones who thinks he can have an '06 Super V8 until 200K+ miles, and not hate it or have to work on it almost constantly.

 

NOT AT ALL! That's merely logical.

And the OP was talking about an '84 190. Not exactly a shining example of MB build/engineering/longevity. They're not particularly well-respected machines, as a chassis, around the MB "community".


My wife keeps asking me why I'm not looking at an '06-newer E-class, or the like. And I remind her, they weren't back to where they should be by then. IMHO, they are, now, but just in the past year or two.

That, and even a top-o-the-line S-class isn't as "luxurious" inside as a VP or Super. Just isn't. They're Teutonic machines, not British luxury carriages.

I love the Super because it is very close to my personal "perfect" car. A very luxurious large sedan, which has a heapin' helpin' of warp drive.

What's interesting is finding, since the popularity of the Internetz and forums such as this, how every single vehicle has at least one, probably a few, problems which haunt it. MB for a good while was plastic timing chain tensioners. Also, rear window mechanisms would fail...also plastic. In my current MB, it's a plastic (!) reverse piston in the transmission. The trans should last until 200K+ in this machine, save for this one $3 part. I see a pattern here. Cars built to last until 300K miles, at least, should have few plastic parts in commonly-used or areas which experience large temperature variation. We'll not go into the logic behing bio-degradeable wiring harness insulation.



The X350 has throttle-body issues, among other things, which you'd think wouldn't be a problem...it's not like they're uncommon. But you pay to play. I'm willing to roll the dice on this one.

 

Expensive, complex European sports/luxury cars are not cheap to maintain, and I don't know any exceptions, and I have owned many. The X350 is one of the more solid and durable in my experience, as well as one of the most pleasurable to drive. Expect any car with an active suspension to have issues once it's a few years old. Shouldn't be that way but is. Throttle bodies seem to be an issue too. My SA said stay away from the 2004 MY. Other than that you're good to go, just don't expect miracles. Miracles like that only come from Honda and Toyota, and yeesh, really, do you want to do that?

BTW: The only car I've ever owned which never required a single repair of any kind was (and is) a Ford. I still have it

 

Totally agree, Ford was one of the best things to happen to Jaguar. Period....

 

I have owned a 2007 XJ8 Navi for one month now. It is my first true luxury car, but without a doubt the best car I have ever driven. I have driven BMW 500 series and Mercedes S series, and IMO the Jag is the smoothest. It is really a dream to drive. The V8 has plenty of power I have to watch myself as it is pretty easy to creep up to 90mph.

It has 33k miles, and will need new brakes and tires by the end of the summer.

I get great gas millage and still love the car. I have no plans to sell it, there are some things that I dislike though:

First the sound system, I wish the car had the premium sound system, the base system is good on the highs, but the lows are muffled. I am considering adding a speaker level amplifier, tapping into the rear door speakers, and adding two 6x9 speakers to the rear window tray.

Second, the lack of aux audio input for a display based sound system is just puzzling. I added a DICE FM adapter for iPhone input, but the sound is not that great, I am considering swapping it out for the Jaguar ACM.

Thirdly, the break dust from the factory pads is horrific. To keep them clean I have to wash the wheels weekly, and I drive less than 100 miles a week. I plan to replace the pads with EBC redstuff pads. Hopefully I can then keep the wheels clean.

Finally, I am a big guy and at 6' 1" I have to maneuver myself to get in the car without hitting my head. The seats are very stiff and it took me awhile to adjust them seat to find a comfortable position.