Is the air filter wet?

 

We just had a similar problem on the S Type board. With those very low temperatures your starter most likely was frozen.

Since the car is in the warm shop have they tried to start it? As was posted above water in the spark plug wells has nothing to do with the engine locking up.

From what has been posted I still don't see anything that makes sense.

Let us know if it turns over and/or starts.
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Doubt he went through many puddles at 8 degrees! So is it running and good to go now?

 

No, the air filter isn't wet. As I mentioned, it has been very cold here. No standing water in sight.

After the mechanic sucked the water out of the cylinders, he put the plugs back in and it started and appeared to run okay. At a 109k, he said the plugs were showing wear, and should be replaced. I told him I had already purchased the plugs and was planning on replacing them myself. He said he'd be happy to install them for me, so I'm dropping them off tomorrow morning.

The part that is still very concerning to me is what is to say this won't happen again? The forecast for tomorrow is a low of -8 degrees F, and a high of 5, so if it's temperature related, I could have a problem. There is no water in sight, and the only water the car is exposed to would be from snow melting or running it through a car wash. Come to think of it, I did have the car washed the day before this all took place - but I did drive it for about 50 miles before the problem occurred.

 

That makes even less sense than the water on the outside concept. Defies the laws of physics.

Superchargers HEAT the air as a byproduct of compression. Any moisture present would evaporate not condense.

 

Posts #3 and #79:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...ken-rod-49183/
(Don't let the title fool you)

Lots of other entertaining reading there, though neither Mikey nor John (JagV8) would join us in wild speculation.

Unfortunately, it seems Noodlearm never returned to close the loop on his negotiations with his mechanic. (Probably 'cuz Rick tried to sell 'im that bridge...)


But at least your problem is not unprecedented, rather just undefined to the collective satisfaction of the assembled interested parties of JaguarForums.com

 

Bingo, you were holding out on us!

You say you "had it washed?" I wonder if they sprayed under the hood? The last 2 times our motor bay got wet things went haywire until we got a nice warm day to dry things out. I wonder if you had a spark plug or 2 that weren't snugged down enough.

The great news is she lives.

 

The 2011 posting is very interesting. They seem to have not found a reason, but it occured exactly like you described...Drove fine when parked, and later totally frozen (literally). Of real note is that it happened to him at about 5 degrees F. I was originally thinking that the cylinders were hydro locked, but after looking at the posts, it sounds like just a small amount of water that froze and locked the rings to the bore. In warm weather the small amount of water would likely have been a non-issue.

The supercharger condensation is a real possibility. It heats the air and dumps it into the cold intercooler, which cools it. If you have ever owned an air compressor, it's exactly the same thing. Water condenses and runs to the bottom of the tank. In the Jag intercooler, it likely runs to the bottom tubes of the intercooler and sits there...since you are likely not using a lot of throttle in very cold conditions. Somehow on shutdown, the engine must have sucked the water out of the intercooler. Not a lot...but enough.

I would think the solution may be to rev the engine right before shutdown in below freezing weather, to clear the condensation out of hte intercooler. If it happens again...thawing the engine may actually work, and for free.

 

The air going through the intercooler never drops below the dew point, so no condensation there.

 

Thanks for the link! From post #79 on was eerily similar to my situation. I'm really disappointed that Noodlearm never reported the final result. I'm happy that I don't have $2 - 3k into the diagnoses...

 

You know this, how? We had cold temps this week and I drained 2-1/2 gallons of water out of my air compressor. That was just one weeks worth. I assure you that when you take warm heated air and dump it into 5 degree F tubes, you will get condensation.

It is also the only thing that makes sense explaining how free water got inside a closed system.

 

30+ in the engine manufacturing business at one of the big 3 gas turbine OEMs.

Comparing what happens in a shop compressor to a supercharger/intercooler combo is apples and oranges.

The air entering the intercooler is at supercharger temps- way way above ambient. It is also entering at high velocity. Both these factors avoid having moisture condense and 'puddle' in the intercooler as suggested. If it were to occur nonetheless due to low engine speed and cold temps as per theory, it would either (at next throttle application) be re-atomised and pass harmlessly through the engine, or remain as a liquid to be ingested in one or more cylinders and 'hydro lock' bending the connecting rods and seizing the engine.

If it were to remain in the intercooler until the next start up in this case, it would be frozen solid. According to the OP, the ambient temps were well below freezing.

If were not frozen, there is insufficient airflow velocity to suck it as a liquid into 1 or 2 cylinders while the engine is being cranked. I believe the OP mentioned that the engine did not crank at all the next morning.

I don't know how the water got in the cylinders, or even if it was water and not coolant or fuel but the supercharger/intercooler story makes no sense.

 

A compressor is a compressor, and I merely use this as an example most can relate to. WHether you like my example or not, the physics is indisputable. Unless you start with air having absolutely no moisture, which simply does not happen in open atmosphere, water vapor is taken into the supercharger along with the air. If you take hot air with any moisture at all, and expose it to a cool surface, you will get condensation. That's the apples to apples.

Want another example? Jet engines bleed 800 degree 12th stage compressor air, which is sent through an intercooler, a turbine, a second intercooler, and the second stage of the turbine. The result is air cooled below freezing to air condition the aircraft. The moisture freezes in the ducts at the AC outlet, so the hot 800 degree compressor air has to be used to bypass the turbines occasionally to blow the ice and water accumulation out of the ducts. If 800 degree air can be reduced through turbines to make ice...how can you doubt that a supercharger can do the same?

Does it really matter if the water condensed into ice instead of liquid water within the tubes? Not really. Does it matter how or when it moved from the condenser into the intake manifold? Not really. But condensation easily explains how liquid...or frozen...water entered the engine.

What I learned from this is that it may be a very good idea to rev the engine to expell water from the intercooler on extremely cold days before shutting down. According to my logic, it will clear the water from the intake so it cannot freeze in the motor. According to your logic, it won't hurt a thing to do it.

And as a note...for most idling and cruise the supercharger is drawing a vacuum. If the intercooler can handle a full blown charge at full throttle, it will have very little velocity through it at idle or part throttle. If this were not the case, then the intercooler would negate the benefits provided by the supercharger.

 

Physics is physics but for the supercharger you take in ambient air and raise it's temperature a lot. That would make the air absorb moisture not lose it. The ICs get hot very fast as a sign of this.

 

Gazoo,

I have to be careful here but a gentle whack can do damage too and I have suffered that by a so called patrolman in the Uk that did that.

HOWEVER QuikCat, I sympathise greatly!

A shock can sort it, I believe!

If the starter motor is jammed a gentle continuous tapping may jolt the starter (whilst the ignition is applied, so you'll need 2 persons.)

But in my view for this to have a chance of working, the key has to engage the electrics, ecu and solenoid.

Ie, if the lights and ecu start up and the solenoid flutters and when clicking the ignition to full, and you hear a slight humming sound, then the starter is jammed and the tapping will encourage a clean start when the starter engages where it should locate.

This is not to be done with a hammer, a wrench or anything METAL!!!

I suggest a slim piece of wood applied to the base of the starter motor and gentle but firm tapping.

Metal will break any moulded engine mountings so go easy.

I personally think this will work but it's a very grey area!

Good Luck QuikCat!! Regards, Stu

 

We're into semantics now, but again, the intercooler by virtue of being downstream of the supercharger is always 'hot' with the inner surfaces being well above the dew point. In the example being discussed it is theorized that water collected as the engine was being operated at no/low load. This would also mean that the vehicle was stopped or creeping at idle speed. In this condition, there would be virtually no airflow over the intercooler minimizing any chilling effect it might have on the air flowing through it.


Ref. your example of bleed air being used to pressurize and air condition an aircraft cabin brings another principle into play where the high pressure air is allowed to decrease in pressure via an air cycle machine (ACM) thereby releasing it's heat. No such decrease in pressure occurs to any degree in a supercharger/intercooler set up.

 

All the air that goes through the supercharger goes through the intercooler, doesn't it? The warmer the air entering the intercooler, and the cooler the intercooler, the more chance there is for condensation. Both of these posted incidents happened in 8 degree or cooler outside temp. That is a huge temp difference between the supercharger outlet and the intercooler.

The outlet line on my compressor is normally 250-300 degrees F. My 60 gallon tank is ambient temp, but heats to about 120 degrees when I am using a lot of air. My copper air lines run 100 feet and are ambient temp at the water trap at the far end. I get water in the tank, the lines, and the far trap. Air does not care whether it is being sucked into my compressor or a supercharger. If 120 degrees at my tank can condense water, why is it so hard to believe that an intercooler at 8 degrees also can?

You keep referencing dewpoint. Dewpoint is the temperature that air can be cooled before the moisture comes out of suspension at a particular atmospheric pressure. I have to ask again...how do you know what the dewpoint is inside the intercooler? The air is not at atmospheric pressure, and we have no idea what the starting humidity was to begin with. In the intercooler, it is the temp of the cooling tubes that makes the difference, not dewpoint. At 8 degrees OAT, you will get condensation on the tube walls, and at low power, likely frost. My air compressor takes outside air at about 30% humidity and raises it about 10 atmospheres pressure. I am certain that the dewpoint at 10 atmospheres is much higher than the 120 degrees of the wall of the tank...but there is still water in the tank every time I use the compressor. My point is that dewpoint is truely apples to oranges. It is the temp difference that matters for condensation.

I am assuming that reving the engine will both:

1) heat the charge of air entering the intercooler, thereby melting any frost accumulation, and
2) accelerate the charge to blow the resulting liquid through the intake system and through the engine.


Let me go another route, for those that still doubt. Have you wondereed why the Jag throttle bodies have a coolant hose running to them? Since we got rid of carburetors and throttle body injection, and went to port injection, heat is no longer needed to hold the gas in suspension through the intake tract. The heat is to prevent icing in the throttle body throat under certain conditions. As air is accelerated past the butterfly and through the throttle body throat, the reduction in pressure results in a reduction in air temp. You will get ice at the throat in the right conditions of temp and humidity.

I have absolutely no doubt that under most conditions the intercooler does not condense water. But it is not open minded to think that it cannot ever condense water under certain abnormal conditions...like 8 degrees after a frontal system passes through.

 

Wow! Getting really scientific here. I appreciate all the discussion as I struggle with my fear of this happening again.

I picked up the XJR from the dealer last night, and unfortunately the mechanic had already left and is out today, so I haven't been able to talk with him. The total cost for the repair was about $500, and that is having my new spark plugs installed (dealer wanted $200 for plugs). Car ran fine on the hour drive home. Parked in a heater garage for the night, it started fine this morning. Drove 30 minutes to work this morning in 2 deg F weather - supposed to be a high of 10 today. This scenerio is very similar to last Wednesday, when this whole thing started (or should I say didn't start). I'm obviously concerned that when I get out of work tonight, I don't experience the same situation. I did rev the engine a couple times before shutting it off.

Tomorrow, I plan to ask the mechanic the following:
- How much water was in each cylinder?
- Where was the piston in relation to it's stroke, i.e., how much volume above the piston?
- How does he think the water got in only 2 cylinders?
- How can I prevent this from happening again?

Let me know if you have any other questions that you think I should ask.
Thanks.

 

Hi QuikCat,

I apologise if I changed the thread of conversation.
My suggestion was last resort if there is no apparent symptom to the problem.

You did the right thing and it obviously wasn't a stuck starter motor anyway but good luck over the next few days and I hope your babe doesnt cost you too much more!!

Regards, Stu

 

Okay, the whole conversation about compressing air squeezing moisture out as it does with a garage compressor, but where then does the condensation go? There must be something in the design that catches the water and keeps it from dumping as a liquid into the cylinders, even if just a depression in the floor of an intercooler.


Is it possible that the trap - let's just call it that - capacity is exceeded in colder weather? Or is it possible to spill the trap if the car is not, say, parked on level ground?


Regardless, it would seem that this condition would be known to Jaguar if it were a design limitation.


Just thinking out loud.