Note Ford replaced SP with LV. And Shell M1375.4 is not an oil but a spec that anyone can try to meet. The Valvoline Maxlife Synthetic meets it and LV.

 

Hi rcannon,

Is Valvoline the only source for this information so far, or has ZF confirmed that Maxlife ATF is approved for use in the 6HP26? Valvoline is obviously a major brand (of Ashland, Inc.), but I guess it comes down to "Who do you trust?"

According to Valvoline, Maxlife ATF can be used in the Jaguar X300 (ZF 4HP24), the X308 (ZF 5HP24), the X350 (ZF 6HP26), and several other Jaguar models:

http://www.carquestprofessionals.com...%206.10.13.pdf


But according to ZF, those three transmissions require three different fluids:

4HP24: Dexron III
5HP24: LifeGuard 5
6HP26: LifeGuard 6

Here's the link to ZF's recommendations:

http://www.zf.com/na/content/media/u...omendation.pdf


The idea of "One Fluid Fits All" is certainly attractive, but when the transmission manufacturer specifies three different fluids, I want to understand why before deciding to ignore their stern warnings about the risks of using any fluid other than the one specified.

Cheers,

Don

 

Hi tarhealcracker,

We all have every right and obligation to be skeptical when a company insists we use only products marked with their brand. But that's part of what's interesting about this discussion.

ZF does not insist we use a LifeGuard fluid in the 4HP24 transmissions used in the XJ40 and X300, even though all the third-party ATF fluid makers insist their modern fluids are "backward compatible." For those 4-speed gearboxes ZF still recommends Dexron III, a fluid that, to my knowledge, ZF has never had a financial interest in.

For their 5-speed boxes they don't recommend the newer LifeGuard 6. Instead, they still recommend LG5. For most of the 6-speed boxes they still recommend LG6 rather than the newer LG8. ZF does not seem to agree with the idea of "backward compatibility" of transmission fluids. Instead, their fluid recommendations are consistent with the claims in their service manuals that specific fluids have been created for each range of transmission. This, as much as any other known fact, makes me question Valvoline and others who claim their fluids will perform optimally in a 6HP26 and dozens if not hundreds of other transmissions.

From experience, I can tell you for certain that Valvoline Dexron VI does not perform properly in our '93's 4HP24, despite Valvoline's claims that their Dex VI is fully backward-compatible in vehicles for which Dex III was originally specified. I ran Dex VI in our '93 for a few years and didn't realize until I replaced it with Redline D4 that the torque converter had not been locking up properly. At least in this case, Valvoline's claims that Dex VI was suitable for use in Dex III gearboxes was not true, so I remain skeptical about their claims regarding Maxlife ATF.

Cheers,

Don

 

Don,


ZF does have a financial interest in selling their own fluid however. And it is actually illegal for ZF or Ford or anyone using a ZF to say you have to use their own fluid. The shell spec ZF requires for the ZF6 is met by Valvoline Maxlife says Valvoline, and it is fully compatible with ZF fluids. But yes I agree there could be enough difference to result in performance differences in some cases, as with the Dexron III vs VI.


My only thought is since Ford uses the ZF6 with Ford SP or LV fluid, it should be ok with the Valvoline, which is compatible with those as well. I was reading a Ford forum and the Valvoline works as good or better than the SP, and one dealer was preferring the Valvoline. Maybe that's why they went to LV. Anyway I guess we just have to try it... who goes first?

 

If it's illegal, they've been doing it since at least the mid-90's with the 5HP24 and LifeGuard 5....


My understanding is that Shell developed M1375.4 in response to ZF's request for a fluid that met the unique requirements (at the time of introduction) of the 6HP26 and its relatives. To my knowledge, Shell has never published the full list of ingredients. We can assume Valvoline, Pentosin, Redline, Amsoil and others may have reverse-engineered M1375.4, but since they are all in the business of creating "universal" fluids, it is unlikely that any of those companies have replicated the M1375.4 forumla. Instead, they have created fluids that "meet the M1375.4 specification," along with many other specifications. None of them is exactly like LG6 or M1375.4, which can easily be seen by comparing the various published properties of the fluids Partick has captured on his spreadsheet.


Several of our members are currently using Mercon SP in their 6HP26s, most of whom report good results. What is keeping me in the LG6 camp is that our Jaguars are such smooth cars to begin with, and the Mechatronics so capable of adapting the gear shifting behavior, that we may not notice when things are not as they should be. While I was using Dex VI in our '93 I honestly had no idea the transmission was not behaving properly. It wasn't until I replaced it with Redline D4 (with a higher viscosity index closer to orginal Dex III) that I suddenly realized I had been missing full TC lockup. Suddenly in Sport Mode I could tell that gears were being held longer, and once again I had engine braking when descending hills. I might never have known what I was missing if a friend hadn't suggested Redline D4. And who knows if friction linings were wearing more quickly, gearbox temperatures were elevated or other problems were occurring?

I sure wish a ZF fluid engineer would chime in!!! :-)

Cheers,

Don

 

If you go back to my post 58

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...3/#post1225955

You will see details of ZF trans failures using non LG6 fluid

In the press release Penrite removed LG6 from the product but kept M1375.4 spec on the product

This tells us there is a difference in one or more of the additives that make up LG6 as compared to M1375.4

To quote the press release
"Two ATF applications that will not be covered at this stage are ZF 6 speed, and Mercedes 7 speed transmissions. This is because the technology that was used in SIN ATF that allowed us to cover these applications is no longer being manufactured anywhere in the world."

Make your own decisions but for me the cost of a rebuild does not risk the few dollars saved on non LG6.
I would only say saving a dollar on the oil is valid if it specifically is made for LG6 (not M1375.4)

M1375.4 may be close but it is clearly not LG6 spec

Cheers
34by151

 

Jaguar do not specify Lifeguard 6.

Both the Jaguar X350 workshop manual, and the Jaguar Vehicle Specs document specify Shell M.1375.4

 

That's right - it's ZF that insists on LifeGuard 6. The Jaguar Workshop Manual specifies Shell M1375.4. But comparing the specifications of the various fluids on your spreadsheet, LifeGuard 6 is the only one that matches those of Shell M1375.4 exactly. Otherwise, only Mercon SP comes close.

California Transmission Supply Co. sells LG6, so we can't consider them an unbiased source, but they do list a chart that appears to establish that all the various automaker's branded fluids for the 6HP26 are just re-labelled LG6:

ZF LifeGuard 6 - Case of 12 x 1L Container

The chart shows the Jaguar part number as 8432. A little research turns up C2C8432 as a transmission oil, Jaguar retail price $51.50 per quart, Jaguar Merriam's discounted price $41.84 per quart!

Unfortunately, CTSC doesn't offer parts for the Ford 6SHP26. If they did, it would be interesting to know if they recommended Mercon SP for those. I have just emailed them to ask if they can tell us why Ford specifies MSP while ZF specifies LG6 for everything else.

I'll post any reply I receive.

Cheers,

Don

 

As I mentioned, I emailed California Transmission Supply Co. to ask if they could explain why ZF insists on LifeGuard 6 in the 6HP26, while Ford specifies Mercon SP for the 6SHP26. I received a very prompt reply from Klaus at CTSC, which strikes me as perfectly reasonable:

Hi Don,

Most of the transmission fluids would fit the needs of a 6HP26 transmission well. Corrosion protection, anti-foam agents and additives to prevent thermal breakdown to name a few would just work fine.

Problem is that the software is calibrated specifically to the LFG 6 or LFG 8, essentially fine-tuning the software to the slippage characteristic of the fluid, over the full range of the drive profile.

Other fluids will have different characteristics and might not perform as expected in certain ranges, the adaption will try to compensate but might not be able to.

You heard stories of people using different fluid and claiming that the trans is even shifting even smoother, very possible,the transmission might slightly slip due to the different characteristic perceived as smoother shifting.

Some fluid might just work as well as LFG 6/8, but why take a chance? The cost of an oil change is within a reasonable range and performed every 50.000 miles will not break the bank.

Ford of course has chosen their transmission fluid and the software was calibrated accordingly.

Hope that helps
Best regards
Klaus


To corroborate Klaus' explanation, I would like to receive a similar response from ZF. I'll let you know if I succeed in receiving one.

Cheers,

Don

 

Klaus' comments are well stated and dovetail nicely with my comment re: my conversation with a ZF gent several years ago. See this thread, post #21. Though we do differ on the need for frequent, routine fluid changes.

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...e2/#post507146


Cheers,

 

Steve,

Thanks for chiming in!

BTW I have also emailed ZF and will post any reply I receive on this topic.

Cheers,

Don

 

As promised I contacted ZF asking for an explanation as to why ZF insists on LifeGuard 6 only in the 6HP26 while Ford specifies Mercon SP in the 6SHP26. This is the reply I received, which seems to confirm the explanation from Klaus at CTSC:

__________________________________________________ _______________
Dear Don,

For further processing of your request, we kindly ask for the following information:

The OE fluids and ZF Lifeguard Fluid 6 are the same for the JLR and BMW 6hp26 applications. The Ford Mercon SP may also be the same with just a color additive but I am not sure about that. We do not service them here. Ford has their own reman program. I have attached the TE-ML 11 fluid application chart for your reference.

The one thing I will suggest is to stick with the OE or ZF fluids. The software and fluids are produced to work together. If an aftermarket fluid is used it may or may not work. If the adaption values are on the edge of throwing a code due to clutch wear and an AM fluid is used the adaption value may fall out of its range resulting in a slip code.

Please reply to this mail using the “Reply” button of you mail client – DO NOT CHANGE THE E-MAIL SUBJECT

For further questions or updates please contact ZF Services North America, LLC., telephone: +1 847 478 6868. Always provide your request ID when contacting us regarding this request, please.

Kind regards
Your ZF Service Desk
ZF Friedrichshafen AG
88038 Friedrichshafen,Germany
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats
Chairman of the Supervisory Board: Prof. Dr. Giorgio Behr Vorstand
Board of Management: Dr. Stefan Sommer (Vorsitzender/CEO), Dr. Konstantin Sauer, Michael Hankel, Jürgen Holeksa, Rolf Lutz, Wilhelm Rehm, Dr. Franz Kleiner Sitz
Headquarters: Friedrichshafen Handelsregistereintrag Amtsgericht Ulm HRB 630206
Trade register of the municipal court of Ulm HRB 630206
__________________________________________________ ________________


I am attaching the pdf file that was included with the above email. It is a chart of fluid recommendations for the various ZF transmissions. The chart of automakers' fluids published on the CTSC website obviously came from this ZF document.

One of the interesting details of this document is the list at the end of third-party fluid manufacturers whose fluids have been approved for use in various ZF gearboxes. But with the introduction of the 5-speed boxes, ZF began to specify only one fluid (LifeGuard 5 and so on). If we accept ZF's explanation, this change must correspond to the introduction of more advanced TCM adaptation capabilities and the fact that each automaker programmed its own unique adaptations based on the characteristics of the specific fluid used.

Another point worth noting is that the author of the ZF email confirms that the OE fluids for Jaguar-Land Rover and BMW applications are LifeGuard 6. So we can safely conclude that the other automaker-branded fluids (Audi, Bentley, Land Rover, Mazerati, etc.) are also LifeGuard 6 as previously assumed.

Thoughts?

Don

 

That comports perfectly with information I got from the XF tech guy I spoke with. I met him in Mahwah at a Jaguar function when we had our talk. When I returned home he sent me these. The one is an earlier version of the very doc you just got, Don.

It's clear the fluid issue became much more critical when the fully adaptive transmissions came on the scene. Changing fluid types, and even exchanging fluids, once the trans has worn in some, or adapted, can upset the coefficient of friction apple cart.

That's why I adopted the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" line of thinking with adaptive transmissions.

Cheers,

 

Don

Have you tried enquiring of Shell USA ? (In Houston TX I believe).

(I suspect that they make M1375.4 in bulk for Ford and Motorcraft and that the latter 'bottles' it and sells it under the name Mercon SP).

 

Hi Partick,

That's a very interesting idea. My assumption has been that in working with Shell to develop M1375.4, ZF would have dealt with Royal Dutch Shell (The Hague, Netherlands) rather than Shell U.S.A., but I hadn't thought of asking Shell at all. Good thinking. I'll see what I can learn.

BTW, according to your spreadsheet, the specs for Mercon SP do not match those for M1375.4, so is there some other reason that leads you to suspect SP is made by Shell?

Cheers,

Don

 

I've seen it claimed in another forum (Bimmer forum ?) that M1375.1 is made in the US for the North American market (S.Am as well quite probably) and made in Europe for the European market as LG6.

And ... I've done another Oil props with the percentage difference from M1375.4 added. The difference between the viscosities of Merc SP and M1375 is less than 2%,which is natch and may well just be due to the measurements being made in different labs.

 

Don, if the conversation with Shell proves a viable solution, can you also identify where M1375.4 can be purchased?

Google search returns nothing...

 

Mercon SP is manufactured in Houston, Texas by Shell for Ford, while LG6 is manufactured in Europe for ZF. The Houston, Texas facility started making the fluid in 2007. In order to meet M-1375.4, you have to have a KV 40C of 28, and a KV 100C of 5.5-6.5, and a vapour pressure of <0.5 @ 20C PA.

 

Hi David,

Do you have direct sources for that information or is it a quote you grabbed from Turkeybaster115 at the (BMW) E90post forum? See post #5 in this thread:

Lifeguard6 = Mercon SP?


The BMW guys have also been working hard to try to solve the LG6/MSP mystery, but despite all the research by guys like Turkeybaster115, I still haven't seen definitive proof that Mercon SP is the exact same fluid as LifeGuard 6 (with all the same ingredients in the exact same proportions).

Cheers,

Don

 

One of my fellow amateur radio buddies I talk to on HF every day worked for Shell in Houston, and now is retired and lives in Orange. The real question is does Shell use friction modifiers in it's supply to ZF, that is not used in the supply from US refineries to Ford for 6HP26 usage. Both meet M-1375.4 And you have heard me say that I recommend and only use myself ZF's LG6 for my X350 6HP26.

It's like Mobile DEX III for the ZF steering. Mobile/Delvac ATF D/M (Dexron III) is specifically modified with anti-corrosion and anti-foam agents, and intended for steering and hydro-pump use, when Mobile 1 Synthetic ATF is not, and is not specified by Jaguar. Both meet DEX III. Using the latter may have you finding your local Jag dealer for fluid modifier specified in the TSB on this issue.