Quest For 450 Horsepower
#181
10-25-2016, 02:21 AM
Senior Member
I think the 2005-2009 S197 Mustang GT uses a 7.5 inch diff so don't think that would work. What we need is a 8.8 inch 28 spline LSD. We have quite a few options like Truetrac, trak-lok, torsen and yukon. I'm leaning towards the truetrac as its a helical type diff like the Quaife so you don't have to replace clutches.
#182
10-25-2016, 04:45 AM
Veteran Member
It'd better be more than that!
Well...
I've got the first version of the tune in my XJR. Probably the worlds first tune via OBD port on one of these cars, flashed in with the dealers own diagnostic tool no less!
It's not the final version, this is still in development, actually our man is having troubles sorting out the torque-reduction requests from the DSC, so for now that's not in.
What is in;
Spark retard curve based on IAT2 temps adjusted (like previously explained)
EGR is always closed (just for Datsports
)
Spark advance and fueling adjusted (like previously explained, 11.5:1, etc)
Supercharger efficiency coefficient value tweaked (because I have the smallest pulley)
Two out of three Torque limiters raised/adjusted (3rd being the DSC, which needs work)
Road test;
No detonation could be heard, even low rpm with as much throttle as possible without downshift going up hills at various speeds. Part throttle tests and wide open throttle, not a ping. But it's a cool night tonight 15-17°C so I'll see how it is tomorrow in the warmer weather.
It definitely feels different, even the gearshifts & kickdowns seem more aggressive, especially part throttle kickdown, not like before. It pulls hard in 2nd gear, I did not get an opportunity to go to redline in 3rd, only to ~5000rpm in 3rd once, which also seemed strong. In 2nd it seems to pull harder/cleaner from 5000rpm than before.
The rotten smell from the exhaust after a full throttle run is gone (as I have 100 cell cats, it used to stink a bit)
To be honest it has been a while since I drove the car hard, so it's not really a back to back comparison, the first few pulls were like "oh, OH!!" but I guess I kind of got used to it after a while.
It is definitely stronger and much more punchy than before.
It had been suggested that the whine from the supercharger might not be so pronounced (this had happened in the X150 XKR with the tune) but the blower is just as loud as before, if not even louder, I can really hear it come on as low as 1500rpm and part throttle. Although I did have the aircon and radio off, listening for pinging, so perhaps that's why the whine seemed more noticeable than before.
I have another revision of the tune sitting in my inbox based on tonights feedback, but we have to see how it goes in the warmer temps tomorrow first.
Well...
I've got the first version of the tune in my XJR. Probably the worlds first tune via OBD port on one of these cars, flashed in with the dealers own diagnostic tool no less!
It's not the final version, this is still in development, actually our man is having troubles sorting out the torque-reduction requests from the DSC, so for now that's not in.
What is in;
Spark retard curve based on IAT2 temps adjusted (like previously explained)
EGR is always closed (just for Datsports
)Spark advance and fueling adjusted (like previously explained, 11.5:1, etc)
Supercharger efficiency coefficient value tweaked (because I have the smallest pulley)
Two out of three Torque limiters raised/adjusted (3rd being the DSC, which needs work)
Road test;
No detonation could be heard, even low rpm with as much throttle as possible without downshift going up hills at various speeds. Part throttle tests and wide open throttle, not a ping. But it's a cool night tonight 15-17°C so I'll see how it is tomorrow in the warmer weather.
It definitely feels different, even the gearshifts & kickdowns seem more aggressive, especially part throttle kickdown, not like before. It pulls hard in 2nd gear, I did not get an opportunity to go to redline in 3rd, only to ~5000rpm in 3rd once, which also seemed strong. In 2nd it seems to pull harder/cleaner from 5000rpm than before.
The rotten smell from the exhaust after a full throttle run is gone (as I have 100 cell cats, it used to stink a bit)
To be honest it has been a while since I drove the car hard, so it's not really a back to back comparison, the first few pulls were like "oh, OH!!" but I guess I kind of got used to it after a while.
It is definitely stronger and much more punchy than before.
It had been suggested that the whine from the supercharger might not be so pronounced (this had happened in the X150 XKR with the tune) but the blower is just as loud as before, if not even louder, I can really hear it come on as low as 1500rpm and part throttle. Although I did have the aircon and radio off, listening for pinging, so perhaps that's why the whine seemed more noticeable than before.
I have another revision of the tune sitting in my inbox based on tonights feedback, but we have to see how it goes in the warmer temps tomorrow first.
Congratulations on the first OBD2 map install that is a feat in itself ,
I'm very pleased to read the EGR was addressed , good move on your guys part there .
The improvements sound promising , I'm looking forward to expriancing these benefits my self .
Thanks and keep the updates rolling .
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Cambo (10-25-2016)
#183
10-25-2016, 06:37 AM
So the Supercharger Efficiency is a map, manifold pressure vs. rpm. In the AJ40 / X150 XKR, the map is in the tune and it's almost identical to the "performance maps" for these blowers, like this;
In the AJ40 / X150 XKR it's also got a factor for the pulley ratios, i.e. the rpm of the supercharger, so no need to mess with the map, just change the factor to suit the pulley/s. In the AJ33S/34S there is no factor for the pulley ratio, so to make adjustments you have to shift the whole map. Not a big deal, but more complicated.
What is the point of this? Well the PCM uses this map/table to predict the manifold pressure at certain rpm & load/throttle, so that it can proactively address what the AFR's should be by injecting what should be the right amount of fuel, rather than it reacting to what the O2 sensors read. So it's more linear, more likely to be "correct" rather than playing catch-up all the time.
Now, it would be possible to implement a custom map/table with the performance map data of a twinscrew instead of an M112, it's just a matter of getting that info, and working out the rpm of the compressor from the pulley ratios.
That's a basically how it's been explained to me...
Yep, that's one of the big benefits of the twinscrew, far less heat generated...
The following 2 users liked this post by Cambo:
Datsports (10-26-2016),
JagSTR2004 (10-26-2016)
#184
10-25-2016, 02:37 PM
Veteran Member
#185
10-27-2016, 10:45 AM
Veteran Member
My deleted post was one of frustration in fitting my Paramount 200 cel bolt on cats.
Was somewhat difficult getting the old cats out until I figured out you have to unbolt both sides to get them to lower enough.
When I got them out I discovered a bolt on one of the studs was cross threaded. Ruined the stud and could not get one from any dealer close by. They both said the Jaguar site had been down all day.
Found a bolt that worked though and ordered a new stud on Ebay.
This was either done at the factory or by a "mechanic".
Also took a bit of fenagling to get the mini cats positioned correctly as not much room with these angled extension fitted!
Just got back from about a 20 mile gentle "bedding in" drive with max speed about 65 mph. I got an indicated average 21.2 mpg btw.
No wot runs at all. I "think" I notice quicker acceleration with not as much pedal movement.
Not noticeably noisier on this run.
Will be going on a 450 mile trip up to MA tomorrow so will see how that goes.
Was somewhat difficult getting the old cats out until I figured out you have to unbolt both sides to get them to lower enough.
When I got them out I discovered a bolt on one of the studs was cross threaded. Ruined the stud and could not get one from any dealer close by. They both said the Jaguar site had been down all day.
Found a bolt that worked though and ordered a new stud on Ebay.
This was either done at the factory or by a "mechanic".
Also took a bit of fenagling to get the mini cats positioned correctly as not much room with these angled extension fitted!
Just got back from about a 20 mile gentle "bedding in" drive with max speed about 65 mph. I got an indicated average 21.2 mpg btw.
No wot runs at all. I "think" I notice quicker acceleration with not as much pedal movement.
Not noticeably noisier on this run.
Will be going on a 450 mile trip up to MA tomorrow so will see how that goes.
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JagSTR2004 (10-27-2016)
#186
10-27-2016, 11:08 AM
Senior Member
Post a video up if you can, bet it sounds great. I feel my exhaust is quite quiet but I wouldn't want to attract the wrong attention or make it overbearing.
I'd be interested to know what kind of power you're making with all those mods . Must certainly be 450HP or slightly more.
I dynod my car using an app just for fun and got 429whp/440 ft/lbs which is about 60whp more than I used to get on it in the same conditions with the Eaton. I'll have to try the quarter mile function too to test trap speed, it uses GPS so shouldn't be too inaccurate.
I'd be interested to know what kind of power you're making with all those mods . Must certainly be 450HP or slightly more.
I dynod my car using an app just for fun and got 429whp/440 ft/lbs which is about 60whp more than I used to get on it in the same conditions with the Eaton. I'll have to try the quarter mile function too to test trap speed, it uses GPS so shouldn't be too inaccurate.
#187
10-27-2016, 11:15 AM
Veteran Member
Post a video up if you can, bet it sounds great. I feel my exhaust is quite quiet but I wouldn't want to attract the wrong attention or make it overbearing.
I'd be interested to know what kind of power you're making with all those mods . Must certainly be 450HP or slightly more.
I dynod my car using an app just for fun and got 429whp/440 ft/lbs which is about 60whp more than I used to get on it in the same conditions with the Eaton. I'll have to try the quarter mile function too to test trap speed, it uses GPS so shouldn't be too inaccurate.
I'd be interested to know what kind of power you're making with all those mods . Must certainly be 450HP or slightly more.
I dynod my car using an app just for fun and got 429whp/440 ft/lbs which is about 60whp more than I used to get on it in the same conditions with the Eaton. I'll have to try the quarter mile function too to test trap speed, it uses GPS so shouldn't be too inaccurate.
I will try posting a video after my trip to MA so that will be over 2 weeks from now.
Before I made this final mod the sound of the SC whine drowned out anything else I could hear from inside the car. Thats at wot.
Last edited by jackra_1; 10-27-2016 at 11:40 AM.
#188
10-27-2016, 12:23 PM
@Jack-ra
You need to take out the angled extensions and remove the mini cats, that was more or less what I was running to stop the eml light. Only problem is the car uses the second lambda to trim fuel so it will be ( as mine was) inaccurate, knock on effect overfuelling. You will notice the black smoke from the over fuelling when you 'push on'.
On mine when I refitted into the exhaust gas flow I got the eml light but also a noticeable difference in mid range torque.
Just a thought.
You need to take out the angled extensions and remove the mini cats, that was more or less what I was running to stop the eml light. Only problem is the car uses the second lambda to trim fuel so it will be ( as mine was) inaccurate, knock on effect overfuelling. You will notice the black smoke from the over fuelling when you 'push on'.
On mine when I refitted into the exhaust gas flow I got the eml light but also a noticeable difference in mid range torque.
Just a thought.
#189
10-27-2016, 12:33 PM
Veteran Member
@Jack-ra
You need to take out the angled extensions and remove the mini cats, that was more or less what I was running to stop the eml light. Only problem is the car uses the second lambda to trim fuel so it will be ( as mine was) inaccurate, knock on effect overfuelling. You will notice the black smoke from the over fuelling when you 'push on'.
On mine when I refitted into the exhaust gas flow I got the eml light but also a noticeable difference in mid range torque.
Just a thought.
You need to take out the angled extensions and remove the mini cats, that was more or less what I was running to stop the eml light. Only problem is the car uses the second lambda to trim fuel so it will be ( as mine was) inaccurate, knock on effect overfuelling. You will notice the black smoke from the over fuelling when you 'push on'.
On mine when I refitted into the exhaust gas flow I got the eml light but also a noticeable difference in mid range torque.
Just a thought.
I have read somewhere that is the case.
If I understood you correctly I should get better performance, and less overfueling, without the mini cats?
I dont mind an eml code so long as it does not cause limp mode /restricted performance.
Last edited by jackra_1; 10-27-2016 at 12:35 PM.
#191
10-27-2016, 03:02 PM
Veteran Member
#192
10-27-2016, 03:10 PM
Senior Member
The EML does not trigger restricted performance (on mine anyway). I get the EML at random times, 4 times since fitting them to date. I hate having lights on the dash, so reset the codes via Bluetooth. Apparently, you can disable the cat monitoring in SSD, if this is true, I will get this done at some point.
#193
10-27-2016, 03:16 PM
Veteran Member
The EML does not trigger restricted performance (on mine anyway). I get the EML at random times, 4 times since fitting them to date. I hate having lights on the dash, so reset the codes via Bluetooth. Apparently, you can disable the cat monitoring in SSD, if this is true, I will get this done at some point.
#194
10-27-2016, 03:48 PM
@Jack-ra
You need to take out the angled extensions and remove the mini cats, that was more or less what I was running to stop the eml light. Only problem is the car uses the second lambda to trim fuel so it will be ( as mine was) inaccurate, knock on effect overfuelling. You will notice the black smoke from the over fuelling when you 'push on'.
On mine when I refitted into the exhaust gas flow I got the eml light but also a noticeable difference in mid range torque.
Just a thought.
You need to take out the angled extensions and remove the mini cats, that was more or less what I was running to stop the eml light. Only problem is the car uses the second lambda to trim fuel so it will be ( as mine was) inaccurate, knock on effect overfuelling. You will notice the black smoke from the over fuelling when you 'push on'.
On mine when I refitted into the exhaust gas flow I got the eml light but also a noticeable difference in mid range torque.
Just a thought.
Are you saying that I will get overfueling with the mini cats?
I have read somewhere that is the case.
If I understood you correctly I should get better performance, and less overfueling, without the mini cats?
I dont mind an eml code so long as it does not cause limp mode /restricted performance.
I have read somewhere that is the case.
If I understood you correctly I should get better performance, and less overfueling, without the mini cats?
I dont mind an eml code so long as it does not cause limp mode /restricted performance.
I've had the catalyst efficiency monitoring disabled in my XJR for about 18 months now, since I changed the cats, there's a number of cars running around like this.
The minicats create more problems than they solve, because yes the downstream sensors are used for controlling fuel trims.
Just put up with the CEL for the time being until you can get a tune done.
Actually, in the 2003-2005 cars the catalyst efficiency setting is not part of the engine tune file, it's a seprate setting altogether, you can run a stock tune with it turned off, doesn't have to be together with a tune.
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jackra_1 (10-27-2016)
#195
10-27-2016, 03:54 PM
Veteran Member
#196
10-27-2016, 04:09 PM
You definitely will get over fuelling by taking the second lambda out of the exhaust gas flow, it was simonxj that originally put me onto this at one of the meets, when I was at the first rolling road session last year it was quite apparent that it was running rich! I have been running with the eml light on with no restricted performance issues at all.
I am looking forward to having the efficiency monitor disabled on Sunday, along with the tune, because I too hate lights on the dash!
Now if I can only find a way to disable the tpms system ( not running monitors in the Arden's ) I will be happy.
I am looking forward to having the efficiency monitor disabled on Sunday, along with the tune, because I too hate lights on the dash!
Now if I can only find a way to disable the tpms system ( not running monitors in the Arden's ) I will be happy.
#197
10-27-2016, 04:12 PM
Cambo quote "Actually, in the 2003-2005 cars the catalyst efficiency setting is not part of the engine tune file, it's a seprate setting altogether, you can run a stock tune with it turned off, doesn't have to be together with a tune".
How do you do that with SDD? Is it a long process?
How do you do that with SDD? Is it a long process?
What he's doing now is editing the "as-built" data file for individual cars in the IDS/SDD, so all you have to do is copy the new as-built file into your IDS/SDD, then update the VID block using a proper routine, and the settings will be changed, no more manual manipulation of the VID block, which is quite a complicated process (it went over my head when I saw it).
The other advantage of this is if you are using the same IDS/SDD/WDS all the time, the changes can't be accidentally wiped out or put back to factory settings if you reflash the ECM or another major module sometime down the track.
Last edited by Cambo; 10-27-2016 at 04:15 PM.
#198
10-27-2016, 04:14 PM
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caldoofy (10-27-2016)
#200
10-28-2016, 10:31 AM
Veteran Member